8 @ 3.0
Come on guys, let's wait for theymos relpy. theymos, are you ok? What happens?
If your bids are accepted, then ours are invalid so it doesn't matter. 7 @ 1.4 1 @ 1.45 |
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Hello,
Our casino has been open since April 2013 and is one of the first off-the-chain Bitcoin dice site, predating sites such as PrimeDice and Just-Dice.
With over 150'000 BTC in bets, a strong provably fair system, easy auditing of betting database made available for the public/investors and advocacy for better provably fair systems, we are one of the most trusted BTC gambling site around.
We're looking for operators of high ranking BTC related websites or people with great experience in advertising and referring leads to join a closed affiliate programs. Rates start at a minimum 15% commission and are negotiable upward based on amount of traffic generated and amount of exposure on your website.
Please PM me to signify your interest and start negotiations.
Regards from Coinroll's staff
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Hello,
when Scrat sold coinroll, it didn't come with the bankroll. We've thus reduced max win.
I'd be wary of new sites with very high max win. Unless their max win divided by house edge (40 / 0.001) is the reserve they have (40000 BTC), they have a very high risk of defaulting on winners. Unless they are cheating, double check their provably fair scheme. Simply saying it's provably fair doesn't make it so. It seems unlikely a new site has over $20'000'000 in reserves.
If players can win a big amount on a 50% odds, the bankroll needs to be much higher, especially on a low house edge. Otherwise players could very quickly have more winnings than the casino has. If they allow high bets without proper reserves, something is off.
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This explains it then... now I know why I have more statistically accurate rolls on just-dice and coinroll than I do on other sites.
To bad Prime has the best sig rate, or else I'd be promoting CR or JD
I doubt Prime cheats at all. Coinroll might start advertising again soon, depends on what the new owners want to do. ---- @cwil I agree if there's an automated system that changes client seed reliably. I'm saying it's convoluted for those that don't because they'll say all their bets are provably fair, they'll show how to verify bets, etc, with no mention that it's the case only if the user changes his client seed. It's simply not accurate if they don't have a system in place that make sure client seed is provided after server seed. Their game works differently I'm sure Like I said I have more statistically accurate experiences on JD/CR than PD...some pretty extraordinary streaks have been hit on PD that shouldn't be possible so often Well idk what kind of streaks you've had, but impressive streaks are not that unlikely. 50000 bets on 50/50 odds and you'd probably have one 15 win/loss streak or more and exponentially more of smaller streaks the further you go down in amount of consecutive win/loss. It takes very large samples to negate variance. |
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This explains it then... now I know why I have more statistically accurate rolls on just-dice and coinroll than I do on other sites.
To bad Prime has the best sig rate, or else I'd be promoting CR or JD
I doubt Prime cheats at all. Coinroll might start advertising again soon, depends on what the new owners want to do. ---- @cwil I agree if there's an automated system that changes client seed reliably. I'm saying it's convoluted for those that don't because they'll say all their bets are provably fair, they'll show how to verify bets, etc, with no mention that it's the case only if the user changes his client seed. It's simply not accurate if they don't have a system in place that make sure client seed is provided after server seed. |
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No, the point is that some players rely on others/trust what they're told. Which means that provably fair system that relies on the user to change his seed for every bet is bad. It leaves many bets not covered at all, that could be cheated in a way impossible to detect after the fact. Once it's done, you can never come back and verify if the bet was provably fair. Why should it be a convoluted, per bet, manual step to turn each bet into provably fair, when they could all be covered by default?
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Actually, isn't it kind of the same thing? If the user didn't verify the file he was served that generates random seeds, he can't go back after the fact to verify. But it would be a big improvement. Many casinos don't even have javascript that automatically generates a client seed. Such that server seed will change, but not client seed, unless done manually be the user. A 24h global secret can be remembered by many and the last deposit tx ID as client seed makes it easy for anyone, even if they did no checks before starting to bet, to go back and check them. It also makes it easy for 3rd party to audit. The initial shuffle is only disclosed upon looking up your betting history. Obviously the server could change the initial shuffle in a favorable way in this system, and truly cheat the player in a completely undetectable way.
You mean there's places that have an undisclosed variable in the calculation, no hash of it, that is only revealed after the bet? That defeats the purpose now, doesn't it... It's as good as no system. |
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The argument I'd make is that this longer process allows for real time verification, which I find preferable. People are either going to take advantage of provably fair functionality or they're not, and most of them are not. Those who are taking advantage are either going to only make a few rolls and be done, so it hardly matters if there's a few extra steps involved, and I'd argue that it's unlikely they would return to see the server secret after 24 hours anyway, or they're going to automate the process, so again it doesn't matter if the process is longer or not.
The major problem I have with a daily secret type setup is that it exposes the site operator to risk should that list ever get out. I agree that JD's system is a decent compromise, as at least bets can be verified every 10 rolls or so as opposed to every 24 hours.
The thing is those that want to use provably fair will not want to do the work for every single bet. They'll want to do it in batch. So why are players not simply covered at all time by a provably fair system? It's deceptive because a bet that might just not be provably fair will still show the same "provably fair" checking instructions, but not all bets will be provably fair, only those where the client seed was provided AFTER the server seed (which usually means not a lot of them). Easy for a casino operator to abuse by doing selective seeding, yet all bets would show roll as "correct" under that system, even if cheating was going on. That's why as far as I'm concerned, any system where server seed can be provided after a client seed is retarded. It shouldn't involve extra work on every single bet. There is alternatives. Every player can be covered at all time. They can then later verify any bet at any time, easily, should they wish to do so. They can also run checks in batch on large samples. Someone could audit everyone's bets. You can verify after the fact if you got the right roll, even if you didn't take any step to get provably fair. If you're labeled as provably fair, that's what you should be getting by default. Not something optional that isn't explained to you. (I think I'm going to use those two last lines for my main post.) |
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Basically, the issue is that many casinos provide a new server hash for each bet. (Which means AFTER the client seed is provided unless you change it before every bet, because otherwise they will know your seed from last bet). This system of one server seed for each rolls allows each bet to be "verified" immediately after each bet, but it's bad because it is meaningless if the client seed isn't also changed afterward before the roll. Those system designs probably result from wanting to provide instant bet verification and poor understanding of what makes something provably fair. Verification is actually harder to do and more tedious, because it is only provably fair if the player changes seed before each roll. If you're labeled as provably fair, that's what you should be getting by default. Not something optional that isn't explained to you. Here's a simplified explanation of cheating that could be done through such a system by a nefarious casino operator: You know how x2 is either roll under 49.5 or over 50.5 for 1% house edge dice site? x99 payout is roll under 1 or roll over 99? The losing rolls are always in the middle of the 0-100 rolling range.
So since a new server seed is provided for each new bet, they could select their server seed assuming the client seed doesn't change and give numbers that tend toward the center of the range instead of being random. Here's what would happen.
1. Client changes the seed after each new server seed, before every bet. He doesn't know server seed, so seed he provides should give a random number. (Painfully tedious, few actually do it, but for those who do, provably fair.)
2. Client doesn't change his seed. All bets are rigged and he doesn't play with a 1% house edge. This would be impossible to be caught since the roll would still match the seeds.
- No, you wouldn't be able to cheat the casino, because the number would still be randomly over/under 50. It would just be closer to 50 than average. The number doesn't need to be on the opposite side such that you could counter it by switching over/under to abuse it. It just needs to be closer to 50 than random numbers would, creating more losses for players. No counter.
- No, you wouldn't be able to notice that the website, across all players, has a much higher house edge than 1% which is unlikely. It's easy to fill with fake "lucky" account to compensate for the actual players who are "unlucky" and have a credible total wager volume/profit. It's also easy to limit to large account/smart targeting.
- No, you wouldn't be able to notice that no actual players report winning, because even if they gave themselves a 2% or 3% house edge or targeted accounts doing large bets for a very large house edge, there would still be winners. The point is, every player could verify all their bets, it wouldn't catch this kind of cheating. Many dice games/casinos use such a flawed system. There should never be any scenario where server seed are generated after the client seed as it allows the casino to do selective seeding! If a player can play that way, the system is flawed, because it's possible to make a provably fair system where the player is always covered. Players don't need to choose between provably fair or spamming bets.Just-Dice was a very good example of a correct implementation. You still had to change your client seed after receiving the server seed, but server seed stays the same, until you request it to be revealed to verify bets. At will verification, but you must not forget to then change your client seed. Get new server seed, THEN add your seed, then good to go to spam bets. Coinroll is another good example, where a daily predisclosed secret is used for everyone. This make changing it after the fact very hard as it would impact all rolls for the day, plus the hash is provided upfront making it pretty much impossible to find another secret which matches the hash. Verification is delayed slightly but we believe this is the best method currently available. We also don't provide a default client seed. We use the client's last deposit tx, which means we don't even have the possibility to choose a default client secret that would be advantageous for the current daily secret. The only way Coinroll could cheat would be by providing rolls that don't match seeds. It makes it hard to cheat as this would be easily noticeable that some bets results are not right. Even if a casino did it for only 1% of players/bets, it would only need a few people tracking bets to start noticing. We also provide archives of all betting on Coinroll for public auditing. A well designed provably fair system is supposed to make it possible and easy to spot fraud by the operator. A system where the player can either choose to be covered with tedious manual work (changing seed before each bet) OR bet at will without being able to check if bets are actually provably fair is not needed and pointless when players could be covered at all time with a system like Coinroll's or Just-Dice's.Regards from Coinroll's staff Please add your input to this thread to let casino operators know of your support for all crypto gambling venues to update their provably fair system and be bound to higher transparency standards. I would also recommend gambling list creators start demanding systems similar to Just-Dice's or Coinroll's for being listed as provably fair. |
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In this type of game, I never use the chat, the other features seem good
Yes, chat isn't really needed to play, but many users seem to enjoy that feature on other websites. |
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That good news!
For when a coinroll with other currencies, for example doges?
We might have that implemented, although there's many features like chat, support desk and possibly different games to offer that have priority over alt-coins. But yes, we are considering altcoins. One step at a time. New features will keep popping up over the year. |
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Coinroll is now hosted on our new domain, Coinroll.com, moving away from the old .it domain. You can still recover your account balance/password by visiting .it domain. This is the first of many upcoming changes to improve the Coinroll experience. Yes, upcoming changes will be more interesting than a simple domain change  Regards |
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