Neither,
I already made my point clear, the crux of the matter are the means of production. These are so unfairly distributed in our society that any discussion about if money is a necessity becomes irrelevant.
This is also where Libertarians and traditional Anarchists disagree, it's the central point of all economics.
But can't small scale production still be controlled by the little guy and money is just a tool (kind of like Atlas was - a tool I mean)? The junior nutball has a point. What I am saying is that the means of production shall not be subject to traditional ownership in a capitalist sense. It is not supposed to be hoarded since it isn't utilized then. There is a (in)famous marxist quote on that matter: "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" The same way Libertarians express their "freedom" as the ability to own the means of production, I express mine as the ability to seize them without payment within need. That sounds remarkably socialist to me, even down to quoting Marxists. You're not socialist are you? |
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Neither,
I already made my point clear, the crux of the matter are the means of production. These are so unfairly distributed in our society that any discussion about if money is a necessity becomes irrelevant.
This is also where Libertarians and traditional Anarchists disagree, it's the central point of all economics.
But can't small scale production still be controlled by the little guy and money is just a tool (kind of like Atlas was - a tool I mean)? The junior nutball has a point. |
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That sounds sensible. One flash crash from Gox would torque their exchange rates.
As I posted in the linked thread, I'm not using MtGox for my exchange rates anymore. I mostly deal with USD and bitcoin, so the fact that people currently can't withdraw USD from MtGox kind of skews their market in my eyes. That's true. The entire Bitcoin community is kind of taking a good American fiber filled shit right now. I'll be glad when the turd finally passes the sphincter and we can get on with business. I think a lot of businesses are going to scrape out of the colon all at once which will be good for Bitcoin. |
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In a resource based economy, we wouldn't have to resort to primitive token exchange (of which bitcoin is a fancy version) to organize society for the betterment of all people.
What happened to that long thread you had talking about the resource based economy Lightrider? I used to enjoy reading that. Thanks, I bumped it. |
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Bumping this up for further discussion.
At the beginning of this fine thread Nefario the scammer said, "The fact that bitcoin cannot be manipulated and diluted the way that fiat currency can is a big bonus and helps prevent governments or other groups stealing wealth by manipulating currency." Does anyone still believe this to be true. Perhaps he just meant he wanted the opportunity to steal all wealth for himself.
Atlas, the forums renowned nihilist super genius believed, "Money is a tool that allows people to easily convert their labors and goods. It's an essential tool that allows for wealth creation otherwise bartering would add an unsustainable amount of overhead." Quite an observation for a screwed up 16 year old kid with suicidal tendencies from Texas.
Are either of these observations correct? Would you side with the common thief over the junior nutball?
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That can't be completely accurate as I can definitely tell you: pay per use is cheaper. So why would people get married? It can't be just that people suck at mat, can it?  Says the guy who lives in a country where you just go out window shopping when you feel like to unload your nuts... Where's that country? Looks like I have to pack up and move again. The Netherlands. Or Belgium. His username(watchwoord) means password in Dutch. Oh, I've been to Amsterdam. He can keep those ugly used up whores in DeWallen. I thought you found a new place.  A new place with brand new whores? They won't be brand new for long, if you know what I mean. Kind of a catch-22...  By the way: OP said the L word to her, maybe even the M word. That's why she told him to take a hike lol Oh, love the on topic filler at the end. Yes, catch 22 but that doesn't make up for the fact that they all look like they were kidnapped from an African Aids clinic. OP why don't you just ask her to blow you now that she spurned your affections. (See what I did there) lol |
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Donaudampfschiffahrtsgesellschaftskapitän
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Watching this whole BTC experiment unfold is really exciting, the good with the bad... [/quote] yes it is, but it can get stale at times  bubble times was awesome until the mid april crash. Now I'm just watching myself very slowly lose money. But don't wanna sell em cos I still love them....an obsessive trap. Is there some sort of therapy thread on here? [/quote] What country are you in? That might help you figure out if you want to sell now. |
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Don't you think it's at least a little odd that both BitInstant and Gox stopped dollar exchange at the same time. I wonder if anyone has checked BitPay to see what they are doing for their customers today?
Yes I think it is odd. However, I do not automatically assume that Gox = bad because the Department of Homeland Security doesn't like them. Could Gox be shady? It is possible. But they are a japanese company that so far complies with all japanese regulations and laws. Time will tell, unless the US indictments are sealed and the proceedings take place in a secret FISA court.  Well this answers my question about what BitPay is doing: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240706.0 |
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That's the missing component isn't it. There are entirely too many scumbags running Bitcoin businesses for there to be any kind of stability. How many broken promises can you count here starting with MyBitcoin and Bruce Wagner. I lost track and stopped counting after Bitcoinica.
There are too many bitcoin businesses centered around trying to sell their way of making bitcoins, or perhaps these types of businesses are the only ones getting the attenion. We need more shops that sell physical products or real world services to accept bitcoin and get them in the limelight. Wishing doesn't do much though... Yeah, here's the latest round of scumbag businesses skirting the law: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240443.msg2549959#msg2549959https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240156.msg2550190#msg2550190Um, the first link is a chart comparing bitcoin to other currencies (not a business). The other is Mt. Gox. They are having issues, but I would rank them fairly low on the scumbag scale. They have not robbed or defrauded anyone that I know of. They have only had production issues and arguments with the DHS. Your missing the point. If businesses started out trying to do things the right way they wouldn't be having the problems they have. What reputable business in the real world gets a bank account seized or has to close operations because they didn't comply with business law or lied on an application. Come on. I presume you are talking about Mt Gox now and the first link is not relevant. First of all, it is the Department of Homeland Security doing the prosecution. These are the same guys who strip search 90 year old ladies in wheelchairs and 2 year old toddlers at airports. The subsidiary in question (Mutum Sigillum LLC) was a holding company, not a money services business. Mt Gox is registered as an MSB, but the subsidiary was not. The account was created before the FINCen guidelines about virtual currencies. Mt. Gox did not have to close operations. Standard Chartered Bank, UBS, and Credit Suisse all ran afoul of US banking laws recently. They have paid over $1 billion in fines and UBS actually had a criminal indictment go forward. Don't you think it's at least a little odd that both BitInstant and Gox stopped dollar exchange at the same time. I wonder if anyone has checked BitPay to see what they are doing for their customers today? |
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That can't be completely accurate as I can definitely tell you: pay per use is cheaper. So why would people get married? It can't be just that people suck at mat, can it? Says the guy who lives in a country where you just go out window shopping when you feel like to unload your nuts... Where's that country? Looks like I have to pack up and move again. The Netherlands. Or Belgium. His username(watchwoord) means password in Dutch. Oh, I've been to Amsterdam. He can keep those ugly used up whores in DeWallen. I thought you found a new place. |
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After reading this very long and winding thread, I can see both sides of the argument. But I think in the end it all comes down to one thing: counter party risk.
If you use paypal, or Visa, or whatever system out there, those providers assume some counterparty risk. And they charge you for it. Sometimes they charge you a lot for it.
When you use Bitcoins, you assume all of the risk. There is no risk premium on transactions.
When you assume all of the risk, occasionally you may simply lose.
Unless you find a company that will take on the Bitcoin risk for you (and actually keep their promise). That's the missing component isn't it. There are entirely too many scumbags running Bitcoin businesses for there to be any kind of stability. How many broken promises can you count here starting with MyBitcoin and Bruce Wagner. I lost track and stopped counting after Bitcoinica. There are too many bitcoin businesses centered around trying to sell their way of making bitcoins, or perhaps these types of businesses are the only ones getting the attenion. We need more shops that sell physical products or real world services to accept bitcoin and get them in the limelight. Wishing doesn't do much though... Yeah, here's the latest round of scumbag businesses skirting the law: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240443.msg2549959#msg2549959https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240156.msg2550190#msg2550190Um, the first link is a chart comparing bitcoin to other currencies (not a business). The other is Mt. Gox. They are having issues, but I would rank them fairly low on the scumbag scale. They have not robbed or defrauded anyone that I know of. They have only had production issues and arguments with the DHS. Your missing the point. If businesses started out trying to do things the right way they wouldn't be having the problems they have. What reputable business in the real world gets a bank account seized or has to close operations because they didn't comply with business law or lied on an application. Come on. |
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^^ That was a very long post.
That redefines "Wall of Text." I bet not one person actually read that wall. |
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After reading this very long and winding thread, I can see both sides of the argument. But I think in the end it all comes down to one thing: counter party risk.
If you use paypal, or Visa, or whatever system out there, those providers assume some counterparty risk. And they charge you for it. Sometimes they charge you a lot for it.
When you use Bitcoins, you assume all of the risk. There is no risk premium on transactions.
When you assume all of the risk, occasionally you may simply lose.
Unless you find a company that will take on the Bitcoin risk for you (and actually keep their promise). That's the missing component isn't it. There are entirely too many scumbags running Bitcoin businesses for there to be any kind of stability. How many broken promises can you count here starting with MyBitcoin and Bruce Wagner. I lost track and stopped counting after Bitcoinica. There are too many bitcoin businesses centered around trying to sell their way of making bitcoins, or perhaps these types of businesses are the only ones getting the attenion. We need more shops that sell physical products or real world services to accept bitcoin and get them in the limelight. Wishing doesn't do much though... Yeah, here's the latest round of scumbag businesses skirting the law: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240443.msg2549959#msg2549959https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240156.msg2550190#msg2550190 |
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After reading this very long and winding thread, I can see both sides of the argument. But I think in the end it all comes down to one thing: counter party risk.
If you use paypal, or Visa, or whatever system out there, those providers assume some counterparty risk. And they charge you for it. Sometimes they charge you a lot for it.
When you use Bitcoins, you assume all of the risk. There is no risk premium on transactions.
When you assume all of the risk, occasionally you may simply lose.
Unless you find a company that will take on the Bitcoin risk for you (and actually keep their promise). That's the missing component isn't it. There are entirely too many scumbags running Bitcoin businesses for there to be any kind of stability. How many broken promises can you count here starting with MyBitcoin and Bruce Wagner. I lost track and stopped counting after Bitcoinica. |
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After reading this very long and winding thread, I can see both sides of the argument. But I think in the end it all comes down to one thing: counter party risk.
If you use paypal, or Visa, or whatever system out there, those providers assume some counterparty risk. And they charge you for it. Sometimes they charge you a lot for it.
When you use Bitcoins, you assume all of the risk. There is no risk premium on transactions.
When you assume all of the risk, occasionally you may simply lose.
Yep, that's right. |
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These charts are interesting, but mainly for the bias shown by the constructor and the negatives that are missing for Bitcoin, such as:
- Can you actually spend it easily on food/homes/cars?
- Is there a risk it will double or half in the next month?
- Is there an (even slim) risk it might not exist at all in 10 or 20 years?
- Can you lose it by being hacked or through computer errors?
Also 'No counterparty risk' thats BS, when I spend my dollars via a debit/credit card I have huge protections, sending Bitcoin I have none.
I'm not being negative against Bitcoin, but it seems that 99% of people on here just want to post the positives.....
Ya think, maybe? I notice there aren't 20 threads going about the fact that you can't withdraw US $ out of Gox or BitInstant anymore or that all miners are considered MSBs now and are risking jail time if caught. But you can't put that in your chart. That would be a negative. https://mtgox.com/press_release_20130620.htmlhttp://blog.bitinstant.com/http://www.thegenesisblock.com/town-hall-discussion-with-gavin-andresen-and-patrick-murck/ |
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A good start to the weekend:
I'd say chill the fuck out but what would that really accomplish here?
You just got these? What country were they shipped to? |
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