There is some confusion here between "votes" and "fees to vote".  

The smallest quantity of Lisk that exists is 0.00000001 LISK.  This smallest quantity of Lisk is therefore given a voting weight of 1 vote.  If you have 1 Lisk, your account has the voting power of 1/0.00000001 = 100M votes.  You can give that full voting power of 100M votes to up to 101 delegate candidates all at the same time.

HOWEVER, there is a 1 Lisk fee to cast 33 votes.  Casting votes for 101 delegates (the maximum number you can vote for) will take you four transactions of 33, 33, 33 and 2 votes per transaction and will cost you 4 Lisk total.

So an account with 1 Lisk may have voting power of 100M votes, but it doesn't have enough Lisk to pay the voting fees to vote for any delegate candidate at all.


No.  You can only vote for a delegate 1 time, period.  If you vote for that candidate a second time, it effectively cancels out your first vote for them.   And votes are not split - Every candidate you vote for gets the full amount of votes in your account.

Please provide a link to information about a JavaScript client in Ethereum.

Your voting power is not split between the delegates you vote for.  Every delegate you vote for gets your full number of votes.  So you might as well vote for 101 if you have that many that you trust / like.

Better management.


LOL.  I am back from my cruise vacation, had a great time and got totally sunburned.  

And Lisk is still at the ICO price of 0.075 USD Per Lisk until an exchange opens.

Voting is continuous and never stops.  Anybody can be voted up or down at any time.  This is why it is so important to have hot-swap Standby Delegate nodes (at zero reward) ready to go continuously to take the place of a $300K-per-year Active Delegate node that is suddenly voted down.

What could possibly go wrong?

My vacation continues! My wife is asleep and here I am on a crappy hotel computer running Windows Vista for God's sake.  I board the Carnival Victory in a few hours for internet detox therapy all next week.  But not before I respond to some of the stuff here that I've been reading on my cellphone...


Back on Crypti (before the fork into Lisk) I made some posts about possible DDoS.  It seems like a real possibility to me too.  I did some research on this and was thinking about running some DDoS tests on Crypti with a program called Bees With Machine Guns running on a bunch of AWS servers.   I never actually did this, but it still seems like a good idea to me:

http://blog.apps.chicagotribune.com/2010/07/08/bees-with-machine-guns/

In fact, maybe Crypti still IS the right place to run DDoS tests.  Crypti is still similar enough to Lisk that DDoS results for one would be very relevant to the other.  Maybe by May when we get the Lisk Active Delegates sorted out, all the Lisk Active Delegates could also set up Crypti nodes.  With 80M Lisk, Max could vote them all in.  And then we could deliberately DDoS the Crypti network to see what we could learn.  The lessons learned would be VERY valuable for Lisk.  Consider this post my vote for such a research project to actually be implemented along with the other 10,000 things that need to happen for Lisk...


As I've mentioned earlier (but I guess we need to keep saying it for all of our welcomed new Liskers!), in the old Cryti wallet (and presumably in the upcoming Lisk wallet) there are pages listing all Active and Standby delegates with checkboxes by their names.  You put up to 33 checkmarks on the delegates you want to be responsible for adding Lisk blocks to the blockchain.  Then you hit a button on this "ballot" and it is recorded at a cost of 1 Lisk.  The number of votes you are providing to each candidate are proportional to the number of Lisk in your account - all selected delegates get that many votes.  You have to repeat the process again for another 33, and again for another 33, and then again for the final 1 of 101 delegates you can vote for.  This costs a total of 4 Lisk, and no, I don't know why the code is set up this way.

The 1 Lisk fee per ballot selection is split among the current 101 forging delegates, as are all Lisk fees.  For example, a Lisk transaction costs 0.1 Lisk to process - and the fees are split among the 101 delegates.  

At genesis block launch Max and Oliver will be running 101 Lisk Foundation delegates to process block 2 and up for a week while the first 101 community delegates are voted for and get their node computers running.  Foundation nodes will go offline as community-owned nodes come online.


In round numbers the ICO collected 14,000 BTC directly, plus 80M Crypti XCR at 13BTC per 1M XCR for another 80*13 = 1140 BTC.  The 15%/10%/5% early participation bonuses haven't been officially anounced but according to my spreadsheet tabulations these will add around another 360 BTC.   So the ICO "sold" 85M Lisk for approximately 14,000+1,140+360 = 15,500 BTC.  That's around 5484 Lisk per BTC.  Each Lisk then costs (1/5484)*100,000,000 = 18,234 satoshi.

Just so everybody knows where all of these numbers come from...  


Hey, that's MY ass you're talking about!  

Let's go through the numbers again.  The Lisk blocktime is 10 seconds.  That means there's (trust me on this) ideally 3,153,600 Lisk blocks generated per year.  Any single one of the 101 Active Delegates gets to generate 31,224 of those blocks in a year.   In Year One they are rewarded with 5 Lisk for every block they generate.  This reward goes down a Lisk per block per year until is is constant at 1 Lisk per block in Year Five and Beyond.  So a Year One Active Delegate makes 31,234*5=156,170 Lisk.  At the ICO price of 0.075 USD per Lisk, that's worth $11,713.  A 25 X price pop to $1.90 per Lisk bumps that Year One reward to over $300K.

Anybody here think a 25X pop to under $2 is out of the question for Lisk when Ethereum went from 0.3 USD to over $10 ?

My point is valid that the Active Delegates are going to be making six or even seven figure annual salaries for running a $5-per-month Vultr VPS node.  This fact is going to bring out a lot of the dark side in human nature that Lisk is going to have to overcome.  

If that much money is on the table, I am going to fight to get my share of it.

I still think Lisk would be better served in the long run by 101 altruistic unpaid volunteers, as I have said here from day one.  There is still the option until launch to run the Lisk Foundation 101 Genesis Block nodes as long as required to find this group of people.  I volunteer to be one of them.

And with that, I am off to a floating fantasyland paradise known as the Carnival Victory for a while.  I'll miss you guys.


And I'll miss you, too, Liska!  


Quiet.  Nobody wants their dreams spoiled.  

LOL true true.  A Carnival cruise ship with way too expensive Internet that my wife will not let me use...the horror!  The horror!

I'm waiting on my plane so my answer will be short.  Lisk doesn't have hundreds of thousands of greedy competitive miners wasting electricity by the nuke powerplant.  Lisk has exactly 101 trusted delegates that cooperate to add blocks to Lisk blockchain.  One single hash per blocktime instead of wasted trillions  like BTC and ETH.  So Lisk can run on a 35 dollar raspberry pi instead of an ocean of ASIC or gpu rigs.  Economy of scale hugely favor Lisk in the future and 101 delegates are at the heart of Lisk.

There is much much wisdom in this post.  Pay attention to it.  Particularly that last point.

I'm leaving for the airport and a week-long vacation off the grid.  See everybody on April 1 !!!

With me gone for a week, I expect Lisk to make great progress!!!

(Wait a sec, that didn't come out quite right...   )

If we're going to come up with a new logo, it should incorporate the concept of a mainchain supporting many sidechains.  This is the core idea behind Lisk.  In fact, the Crypti logo was changed to just such a concept - a "C" made of concentric blocks.

I still like my previous idea of an obelisk that has languages at the bottom changing to 0/1 and then a blockchain as you get to the top.  But that's a graphic, not a logo.

Obelisk is a word of Greek origin that means "point" as in "tip of a spear".  So a Lisk logo needs to have a "point".

http://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/obelisk.htm

Nice sig and good job keeping that list handy, Canna.  I like it, please keep adding names as they come up!


That's actually a pretty good idea.  Think about Doge.

Maybe Max's face for the coin, and the photo of him in the jet with the women for the Lisk paper bill!  


When the Lisk wallet comes out, there will be a tab that will show a list of delegates.   The list will be in two parts.  The first part of the list will be the 101 Active Delegates.  The rest of the list will be the Standby delegates.  There will be check boxes by every name.  To vote, you pick 33 delegates you like and put checkmarks in their boxes.  This is your "ballot".  Then you hit a button to send your ballot with its 33 votes to the blockchain at a cost of 1 Lisk.  I don't know why the limit is 33 per ballot - it's in the code, maybe Oliver can explain.  You can vote for a maximum total of 101 people, so you have to cast four ballots to get to 101 delegates at a cost of four Lisk total.  

When you go back into your wallet, it will remember who you have voted for and automatically have checkmarks by your chosen delegates.    You can uncheck boxes to remove votes.  You then spend one Lisk per 33 removed votes to get those changes onto the Lisk blockchain.

This is how it was at Crypti.  There may be differences made for Lisk.

Oliver, why the limit of 33 votes per ballot?

I am struck with irony about how this delegate conversation is going.  

Max set up the DPoSWFR (Delegated Proof of Stake With Forging Rewards) system in Lisk for only one reason: offer people rewards so they will be motivated to set up nodes!

Now more and more people are saying they want to set up nodes so they can give the rewards away!  To a pool of voters!  To a Dapp contest reward!  Sooner or later it will be to a charity....or did I already see that?

How is DPoSWFR a motivator to run a node if everybody gives the reward away?  If so many people are so willing to run a node with no personal reward, I say again that Lisk would be better off with NO forging rewards and instead rely on 101 unpaid volunteers to secure the Lisk blockchain.  

Volunteer unpaid nodes would avoid a whole lot of jealousy that's coming like a thunderstorm on the horizon.  When Lisk hits $10 each like Ethereum, running a node is going to be worth $300K+ to $1.5M per year for Active Delegates, and $0 per year for Standby Delegates.  I predict DPoSWFR is eventually going to become quite a shitstorm, and all of it just to pay for a $5 per month Vultr VPS.

amanai, if you're going to give your node reward away, a "Dapp contest" is a very worthy cause to support.

Let me just make a few general comments and observations.  

Lots of people are talking about becoming delegates.  This is good.  

Many of these are saying (in one way or another), "Vote for me and I will give you a cut of the rewards" or "I won't vote for anybody that doesn't give me a cut of forging rewards".  This is bad.

The first job of a Lisk Active Delegate is SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN.  Not make money for themselves.  Not make money for others.  SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN.

I'm no different from anybody else.  You offer me money, I'll take it, and I'll take it if I am voted to be an Active Delegate.  But I argued early on with Max that offering forging rewards in Lisk was a mistake.  I finally shut up because Lisk is his coin and not mine, and I have been known to be wrong occasionally.  

Crypti is a pure non-inflationary Proof of Stake (PoS) coin with Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS) voting.

Lisk is an inflationary Proof of Work (PoW) coin with Delegated Proof of Stake With Forging Rewards (DPoSWFR) voting.  

DPoSWFR has the single advantage of offering a motivation for somebody to become an Active Delegate and put up a Lisk node.

DPoSWFR has several disadvantages.  DPoSWFR puts additional new votes and voting power directly and solely in the hands of the 101 Delegates who need votes to stay in their position of power (oligarchy).  DPoSWFR motivates the creation by one individual of multiple declared or even covert sock-puppet accounts to receive multiple rewards (monopoly / crime), at the expense of Lisk node decentralization.  DPoSWFR encourages a "miner-get-rich-quick" mentality (greed) that detracts from and even subverts the delegate prime directive of SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN.  And DPoSWFR creates a motivational gap between Active Delegates running nodes for 150K Crypti in Year One, and Standby Delegates running nodes for no reward at all (income disparity).

People tend to think of Crypti as a "loser".  In fact Crypti had many successes and things to admire.  These include being a non-inflationary coin; the development of sidechains / dapps by Version 0.5.5; and finally, making true strides towards being a DPoS system with altruistic, unpaid delegates who did their job with no forging rewards.  I have a whole side post I believe is worth reading on this topic, "The Truth About Delegates" :

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1346646.msg13832600#msg13832600  

The cost of running 1 or even 101 DPoS cloud VPS or Raspberry Pi 2 Lisk nodes is negligible overhead in today's world, both for individuals who believe in Lisk enough to run a single node, and for the upcoming Lisk billion-dollar financial / sidechain-dapp ecosystem that could pay for running all 101 of them.  

This fact is the key to getting away from Bitcoin and Ethereum mining farms, whether ASIC or GPU based. This fact is the key to the future.  

I still think altruistic unpaid delegates would have been the best path for Lisk, however long it would take to find them.   Instead, we have greedy paid delegates.  

So be it.  But never forget this system is a choice, and alternatives exist.

And also never forget, the delegate prime directive is SECURE THE LISK BLOCKCHAIN.  Not "make money".

Sure, I'll help you set up a node.  I'll do that by posting here details on how anybody can set up a node.  Right now there's not much to do.  Read the Lisk Delegate Handbook.  Get an account on a VPS and play to familiarize yourself with operating a server remotely.  Review the Crypti documentation and maybe even set up a Crypti node as a Standby Delegate for practice.  I'll start posting more on how to set up a node after April 11 when the Lisk blockchain starts.  

Let me just say that I am not an expert on VPS operations and often I needed help from Oliver on problems with my Crypti node.  He was able to respond with personalized assistance because there wasn't that much activity at Crypti.  It will be interesting to see what happens when 101 new people all have problems at once on their unique setup, and Oliver is too busy to respond because he's moved up from tech support to running a multi-million dollar business called Lisk.

(This is why I have always advocated a standardized Ubuntu 14.04 setup on a Raspberry Pi 2 for delegates...)

I posted the following at the thread above:

Hi all, I'm MalReynolds and I would like your vote as a Lisk Active Delegate.  

There has been a lot of discussion on what makes a good delegate.  Enthusiasm.  Community activity.  Reward Pools.   All these things are certainly important.

I ran a Crypti node for many months and so I have a pretty good idea of what the job of Active Delegate entails.   It's harder than it might seem to be.

Let me tell you what I think is important about being a delegate:  uptime, updates and upvotes.  

I will monitor my VPS to keep it online as much as possible.  I will install the Lisk updates as they are issued.  I will upvote new Standby Delegates as required to keep all 101 Active Delegates productive and forging.

Delegated Proof of Stake (DPoS) is harder than it looks to get right as a functioning system.   I will discuss weaknesses I see in the DPoS delegate network and work to raise public awareness to correct those weaknesses as they occur.  My primary focus is a commitment to making Lisk DPoS work smoothly as a whole.

Pretty much any CPU on a cloud VPS will be powerful enough.  My Crypti node worked fine with 768 MB of RAM and 15GB of SSD storage.

Good luck, bysup!

Here are some old CRYPTI documents on setting up an Active Delegate node.  You can look at these to get some understanding of what an Active Delegate does to set up and maintain a node.   Lisk will be similar.

https://github.com/crypti/crypti-docs/blob/master/SourceInstall.md

https://github.com/crypti/crypti-docs/blob/master/BinaryInstall.md

https://github.com/crypti/crypti-docs/blob/master/DockerInstall.md


Again, this is old CRYPTI instructions, just for reference.  Lisk will issue its own documentation.  

That's all I'll say here on BitCoinTalk about setting up a delegate node.  If the tasks in the documentation above is something you think you can do, head on over to the Lisk Forum for further discussions on how to become a Lisk Active Delegate:

Your English is OK and there are no silly questions.

An online cloud VPS  will deliver the best uptime.  Use Ubuntu 14.04.  Here are some to consider:

http://cloud-computing.softwareinsider.com/

http://www.hostingadvice.com/reviews/cheap/

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2455706,00.asp

https://webhostinggeeks.com/bestvpshosting.html

https://www.google.com/search?num=100&site=&source=hp&q=ISP+latency+test&oq=ISP+latency+test

We need to establish a standard test protocol for Lisk.