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1  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / A Guide to Mining in 2013. on: January 16, 2013, 12:37:54 AM
Essay: A Guide to Mining in 2013
By: Proper_proper

This is an essay. An essay for all seasons.

Welcome to bitcointalk.org, the go-to place for all things bitcoin. In this essay I will cover the best ways you can mine bitcoins. Why would you want to mine bitcoins? The idea is of course to make money, no pun intended. While there are many reasons to mine including promoting a robust bitcoin network, the best one is the money. And there is still a lot of money left to be made mining. Here's what you need to know.

First, you need to know what mining really is. Mining is a promise to buy bitcoins in the future. Think of mining hardware as a bond. Something which you buy, and which in turn pays back a certain amount of money to you at a fixed rate. This rate is variable. Some bonds pay out each year, some pay out each quarter, and some pay out each month. Still some bonds pay more or less often than that. So mining hardware is bought at a fixed price just like a bond, and mining hardware pays out at a variable rate as you mine coins with it. This is not the same as buying coins because you need to think about stuff like the cost of power, or mining difficulty. The takeaway is, you need to know how to keep long term costs down.

Power (electrity) costs are controlled by class of hardware. This is because class of hardware affects all of the other variables. When you mine with a GPU (a video card) your electricity cost is very expensive because it must support the rest of the computer too. Plus, the GPU itself is not as good for mining compared to a FPGA. FPGA units used for bitcoin mining use one tenth the power of a GPU. It's true that they cost more, but with power costs up these days it is good to know. If you're planning on serious mining and you leave a computer turned on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week it will cost more than $100 per month. At the end of the day, running a couple video cards versus a FPGA unit is likely to cost more than the computer (and forget the video cards)! Mining with a GPU is great if you're just starting out, but we have now passed the point where buying a rig just to mine is going to be a waste of money.

ASIC units are even better than FPGA. If you're looking out six months or a year you will save even more money. So much so that it may not be worth getting into FPGA mining "now". If you are serious about making money mining, do not buy FPGA units "now". You will end up making less money than waiting and buying ASIC units when they ship in a couple of months.

The only long term cost you will face is power. Now that you know about that, you should think about cost per mHash (or cost per gHash). Here is what you need to know:

1. BTCFPGA's bASIC-72 $1069.99/72 = $14.86 /gHash
2. BTCFPGA's bASIC-36 $599.99/36 = $16.66 /gHash
3. Avalon ASIC $1299.99/66 = $19.70 /gHash
4. BFL MiniRig 'SC' = $29899/1500 = $19.93 /gHash
5. BFL Jalapeno $149/4.5 = $33.11 /gHash
6. BFL "little" Single SC = $649/30 = $21.63 /gHash
7. BFL Single 'SC' $1299/60ghash = $21.65 /gHash
(Note: No ASIC units are shipping yet. Buyer beware of fraudulent ASIC order takers. For maximum safety do not pre order any ASIC product.)

This is just a quick look at three companies. There are many more. This does not mean you should run out and only buy #1 on this list. Competition is strong and no one is shipping yet. But you need to understand what is going on compared to the previous generation FPGA designs.

1. BFL FPGA Single: $599/0.832 = $720 /gHash
2. Enterpoint's Cairnsmore1 "Quad XC6SLX150" Board - $640/0.880 = $727.27 /gHash
3. BTCFPGA ModMiner Quad $1069.99/0.840 = $1273.80 /gHash

See here, even the cheapest FPGA boards are 33 times more expensive than ASIC! And ASIC units use just a fraction of the electricity that FPGA does. It's easy to see where FPGA units will be going once ASICs hit the market: into the garbage! In short, there is no other option if you are interested in profitable mining other than to buy an ASIC product.

Then what should you buy? We once again return to the comparison between a bond and mining hardware. If you buy hardware, you will have to buy the whole thing yourself. On the other hand, you may be interested in buying a mining bond. But if you do, be careful that you are not buying into someone who is trying to dump their FPGA (or worse, GPU) units on you. Make sure that you only invest in high quality ASIC mining bonds that do not mine with GPUs or any FPGA units. The best place to invest in mining is on BTC-TC (http://btct.co). It is a bitcoin exchange that allows you to buy a mining bond in a mining company. You don't have to spend $29,899 for a 1,500 tera hash ASIC mining rig. You can spend one bitcoin or less on a mining bond that represents one share in that hardware and get about the same return.

In conclusion, it does not matter if you choose to buy mining hardware or pool your resources with others in a mining bond. The only thing to worry about is buying ASIC products. Steer clear of anything related to FPGA or GPU. ASIC is the only way to fly in 2013.

If you enjoyed this essay please donate some bitcoins to me, Mr. Proper_Proper, at 16dJfNeaKGigaizekhc2d2mxJ5UPqjUPAw. You may check this address to see how much money this story has generated by visiting http://blockchain.info/address/16dJfNeaKGigaizekhc2d2mxJ5UPqjUPAw. Please mine responsibly.
2  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Litecoin crash= end of litecoin ? on: January 11, 2013, 11:57:15 PM
I doubt it is the end of Litecoin. I sure hope not.  All of the altcoins seem to be dropping on the market because Bitcoin seems to be on a rally. PPCoin has fallen even more than LTC.
3  Economy / Long-term offers / Re: Loan for ASICs on: December 07, 2012, 02:40:37 AM
A few too many "in camera" sessions of knocking his head on the bottom of the magistrates desk has left Nolo dazzled and unable to think clearly. Why would you think this is a good idea?
4  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [PPC] Is Sunny King (of PPCoin) RealSolid (of SolidCoin)? on: December 06, 2012, 07:28:53 AM
He just asked if your the SolidCoin guy, nothing else! He didnt ask for ur Realname, Age, Creditcard or whatever!
The denial to talk about the relation of you and RealSolid just prooves that you are it (simple logic!). Someone would only deny this if he knows his Name/Others would be known trough RealSolid. Therefore u just proved that u are RealSolid.

After all i dont care about who you are, all i want to tell you is: there is no reason to hide this! hiding it just makes PPCoin more shady. Be a man and stand for ur mistakes!

Exactly, using simple logic we can show that Sunny King is probably Real Solid. Case closed. The prosecution rests. You only live once.
5  Other / Meta / Re: Pirate PMs on: November 21, 2012, 12:41:44 AM

Swing and a miss.  

Now, let's say you and I go toe-to-toe on bird law and see who comes out the victor?

you bring your law suit and i'll come with a law tuxedo
6  Other / Meta / Re: Pirate PMs on: November 20, 2012, 01:41:57 AM
Rick James, I'm only asking questions.
7  Other / Meta / Re: Pirate PMs on: November 20, 2012, 12:33:50 AM
Who is "BCB" and why is he trying to insert himself between the victims and the government?  Huh
8  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / [PPC] PPCoin finds new lows on high volume, PPCoin Exchanges limit withdrawals on: October 16, 2012, 12:03:39 PM
PPCoin reached a new low on trading over the weekend of on a high volume.

This does not look good for the future of PPCoin, and it appears we are limiting Sunny King's ability to dump his pre-mined coins which popped onto the network August 19.

It appears that doublec has started to limit withdrawal from his bitparking exchange.

This could mean one of two things.

doublec is limiting PPCoin withdrawal to support the price of PPCoin (a PPCoin banking holiday)

or it could be that doublec does not have enough BTC in reserve to pay back PPC holders (a PPCoin banking holiday) .

I just sold my PPC for BTC and now I am attempting to withdraw my BTC and I seem to be unable to do so. I enter my BTC address, I copy and paste the stated max withdrawal amount, click withdraw and nothing happens. My balance remains the same and there is no pending withdrawal.

Any help?

If I had PPCoin I would be very careful about finding a way to get rid of your PPCoin even if it means going off exchange. This may be the only way to get out of PPCoin now.
9  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Is Sunny King (of PPCoin) RealSolid (of SolidCoin)? on: October 13, 2012, 02:51:59 PM

PS At the moment I do not wish to answer questions related to my identity/privacy. So I will ignore all such questions for now.

Of course you don't want to talk about your identity, because its highly likely you are RealSolid. Thanks.
10  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Is Sunny King (of PPCoin) RealSolid (of SolidCoin)? on: October 13, 2012, 02:50:58 PM
The massive amount of centralization required to support PPC is surprising.
please explain why "required"? AFAIK these checkpoints are a bootstrap method to protect the nascent chain until the majority of mining power comes from proof of stake...
The centralization is required due to poor design and because Sunny King likes centralization.

The biggest problem with it that I see is that its basically impossible for PPC to work without having only a few very large pool miners who are well connected.
Sorry. You lost me right there... can you explain why you think so?
The difficulty adjustment happens so fast it can't make it out to the solo miners who aren't using long polling.

This arrangement reminds me of coins in the past that had trusted nodes who basically controlled the whole network. PPCoin cannot be solo mined because of the centralization caused by the way it targets difficulty.
Again. I am lost.

I just thought I would take some time to respond to one of the posts from the PPCoin thread.

But the difficulty is a running average, correct? IMHO, that may explain the large oscillations we've seen: Someone with huge hashing power hashes for 3-4 days and waits for a few days, for the difficulty to cool down, rinse and repeat. It's rational: In the beginning the huge hashing power is more effective since the difficulty weighting takes into account prior times for lower diff. These leads to a situation where the baseline of miners effectively pays for the efficiency gain in mining of the large entity miner... Sad

This project has massive problems with the way the difficulty is calculated and its showing up in numerous places. Sunny King is doing his best to cover this discussion up, and getting people to remove all references to the code throwing difficulty target errors, but it is happening for anyone not mining in one of the large PPCoin pools.
I am not aware of this. Can you provide references for these "target errors"?
Sunny King has gotten the people that posted about these problems to remove them from the forum. Sunny King wants to cover up the truth about PPCoin.
Please know that the scenario you quoted applies to bitcoin as well, albeit on a 2-week fixed schedule. In ppcoin the difficulty adjustment was changed according to the design paper:
"In our design both proof-of-work hash target and proof-of-stake hash target are adjusted continuously rather than Bitcoin’s two-week adjustment interval, to avoid sudden jump in network generation rate."

So ppcoin is actually quicker in counteracting, but also drops off faster.

Bitcoin doesn't have this problem because it waits two weeks to calculate difficulty. PPCoin only waits 10 minutes to calculate difficulty so you should expect large swings. Bad design.


The large oscillations, or ringing, are also a product of the way the difficulty is calculated. It's unavoidable for this coin.
It's not a function of the coin or the difficulty adjustment, it's rather a function of the strength of the network. Large entity miners can play with the minting rate adjustment. It's unavoidable. The only solution to it is to avoid large entity miners.

Actually it is entirely because of the design. See this link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ringing_artifacts


The PPCoin is also centralized because of its dependence on checkpoints for proof of stake.

All this required centralization reminds me of a project we all thought was dead. Is PPCoin SolidCoin 4.0?
Have you also noticed that many people involved with past solidcoins had already developed pools and exchanges ready to go for the PPCoin launch?
 Has RealSolid not Really retired from developing altcoins? Is PPCoin the next iteration of a SolidCoin? We can't be sure. Please be careful with PPcoin.
The likely reason is that these people are just pioneers and will bootstrap the infrastructure for any cryptocurrency which looks promising.



Hooray for the pioneers in the RealSolid navy! They never get to go on shore leave because the boat just keeps driving in circles.
11  Other / Off-topic / Re: Why is Butterfly Labs so secretive? on: October 13, 2012, 02:42:52 PM
Maybe its because BFL is worried they can't deliver on their promises.

They are secretive because they lack confidence in their abilities.
12  Other / Off-topic / Re: BFL website offline.. on: October 13, 2012, 02:38:05 PM
I do find it painfully ironic that every thing about Bitcoin is based on trust, yet no one seems to trust ANYTHING.

There are many elements on this forum who could very well be the undoing of bitcoin.

I think the undoing of bitcoin will be done by career criminals and scam artists like pirate and Sunny V (of BFL) who is a convicted criminal scam artist.
13  Other / Off-topic / Re: BFL website offline.. on: October 13, 2012, 03:55:25 AM
No, but BFL as an entity is limiting it's contact with Bitcointalk.  I'm speaking merely as myself and as a pool operator.  On the rare occasions BFL intends to interact with this community, I will post as BFL_Josh.  

BFL needs to corral its users where it can control the discussion better and limit conversation of unwanted topics. BFL forums are a BFL friendly sandbox where negative opinions of BFL are not allowed.
14  Economy / Long-term offers / Re: Who Pays What? on: October 13, 2012, 03:52:35 AM
If you bothered to read the OP, you'll see that those ratings are months old.  Enron had a good rating, until they crashed and burned.  So do various countries - ratings are (and always have been) a historical view at a point in time.  - and it was a simple 0-6 score, so those that want to compare RaboBank to Bitcoin are equally misguided.  Ziggy and co rated 5 out of 6 in bitcoin means they had reasonable capacity to pay at the time.  However, any half-arsed attempt at looking at what their "high risk" bonds (fonds) were doing would have avoided them for their lower risk offerings - they said they were investing in Pirate to achieve those results.

Lets look at it this way. You're just as good as those guys that gave Enron a good rating. Let's all gather and worship your mediocrity.
15  Other / Off-topic / Re: Check out these new commercials for BFL on: October 13, 2012, 03:35:09 AM
(spoken in a bubbly voice feigning interest, like a dumb girl reading off of a piece of paper)

Ada: "Hello BFL. Let's get one thing straight right up front. I am not a coder. I don't have much interest in creating programs..."
16  Other / Off-topic / Check out these new commercials for BFL on: October 13, 2012, 03:06:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_0rOg8sdF8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On0r-7XGf0U

Check out these new commercials Sonny V put together for BFL. Sonny V is an expert in stealth/social/viral marketing. What a pro!
17  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / [PPC] Is Sunny King (of PPCoin) RealSolid (of SolidCoin)? on: October 13, 2012, 03:03:27 AM
The massive amount of centralization required to support PPC is surprising.

The biggest problem with it that I see is that its basically impossible for PPC to work without having only a few very large pool miners who are well connected. This arrangement reminds me of coins in the past that had trusted nodes who basically controlled the whole network. PPCoin cannot be solo mined because of the centralization caused by the way it targets difficulty.

I just thought I would take some time to respond to one of the posts from the PPCoin thread.

But the difficulty is a running average, correct? IMHO, that may explain the large oscillations we've seen: Someone with huge hashing power hashes for 3-4 days and waits for a few days, for the difficulty to cool down, rinse and repeat. It's rational: In the beginning the huge hashing power is more effective since the difficulty weighting takes into account prior times for lower diff. These leads to a situation where the baseline of miners effectively pays for the efficiency gain in mining of the large entity miner... Sad

This project has massive problems with the way the difficulty is calculated and its showing up in numerous places. Sunny King is doing his best to cover this discussion up, and getting people to remove all references to the code throwing difficulty target errors, but it is happening for anyone not mining in one of the large PPCoin pools.

The large oscillations, or ringing, are also a product of the way the difficulty is calculated. It's unavoidable for this coin.

The PPCoin is also centralized because of its dependence on checkpoints for proof of stake.

All this required centralization reminds me of a project we all thought was dead. Is PPCoin SolidCoin 4.0?
Have you also noticed that many people involved with past solidcoins had already developed pools and exchanges ready to go for the PPCoin launch?
 Has RealSolid not Really retired from developing altcoins? Is PPCoin the next iteration of a SolidCoin? We can't be sure. Please be careful with PPcoin.
18  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: (Very) small investment opportunity - check it out on: October 13, 2012, 02:41:33 AM
This investment opportunity is now closed. I have donated and taken the only position available in this security. Have a good day. Smiley

Obvious sock puppet.  Roll Eyes

That's nice, but I'll have the last laugh when I make a 100% gain in this investment.

Transaction ID?

It's really unfortunate you have to miss out on this. There will only be one of these ever available and I have it. Sorry. You snooze, you loose.
19  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: (Very) small investment opportunity - check it out on: October 13, 2012, 02:29:19 AM
This investment opportunity is now closed. I have donated and taken the only position available in this security. Have a good day. Smiley

Obvious sock puppet.  Roll Eyes

That's nice, but I'll have the last laugh when I make a 100% gain in this investment.
20  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: (Very) small investment opportunity - check it out on: October 13, 2012, 01:07:30 AM
I guess you know this already but ^that guy is fibbing

You don't have any proof. You could be using photoshop.
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