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Period 17, Day 9 Report - August 17, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 323.01166694
Total Units: 13874
NAV/U: BTC 0.02328179
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Period 17, Day 8 Report - August 16, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 324.33623594
Total Units: 13856
NAV/U: BTC 0.02340763
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We are thinking to invest in MINE AND SELL..Are dividends paid out daily? Or other ways?  MINE dividends are paid daily; SELL is paid after each difficulty change (if the difficulty has increased substantially enough to warrant it). You can speculate in one or the other, there's little point or profit to be made by buying equal amounts of both. I'd recommend reading the contract (in the OP) and then asking any other questions you have here. |
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@TwentySeventy: Are you getting your daily divs from ABitInterested? Everything good there?
Sorry to barge in on your thread and forgive me for being somewhat indiscreet, but I'm ABitWorried about him. All the health problems his family is having... He's a strong, proud man; not one to drag his personal troubles into his legit internet and offline businessesesses. But even the strong need a shoulder to lean on in these trying times, and I can't help but feel it would be cold of me not to extend an offer of help in his hour of need.
He trusts and confides in you, I just couldn't think of a better person to ask. I hope you understand.
Sincerely yours,
~NotLambchop
I'm only invested in XXXProfit, not ApplianceStore. I'm waiting on XXXP divs like everyone else; I spoke with ABI on Tuesday about just that. He said that he has been out of town with family issues (as you seem aware) and is working on the Coinbase transfers. I dislike waiting for dividends as much as the next guy, which is why I sent him a message about it. Feel free to post in that thread next time and PM me to let me know you've addressed me there. As always, I'm trying to keep this thread on-topic. |
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Period 17, Day 5 Report - August 13, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 328.60646969
Total Units: 13817
NAV/U: BTC 0.02378276
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Period 17, Day 4 Report - August 12, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 330.36730817
Total Units: 13817
NAV/U: BTC 0.02391020
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Period 17, Day 3 Report - August 11, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 313.67222224
Total Units: 13068
NAV/U: BTC 0.02400307
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Period 17, Day 2 Report - August 10, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 308.36427491
Total Units: 12785
NAV/U: BTC 0.02411922
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Period 17, Day 1 Report - August 9, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 308.17017955
Total Units: 12711
NAV/U: BTC 0.02424436
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From the contract: Dividend Payout Times
All reasonable care will be taken to pay out dividends on time. In the event that the Manager is available to pay out dividends on time, for any reason, then dividends will be paid out as soon as possible afterwards. The holders of the contracts are entitled to receive dividends at the time that the Manager pays the dividends, not at the scheduled time at which dividends are normally paid.
It's the same situation as if a SELL holder had sold the shares before the dividends were paid - you have to ensure that you see the dividends in your account, don't rely on the time to see if they've been paid yet. OK, This was my error, a misunderstanding. Sorry, merci for your answers I like B.MINE and B.SELL, it's better than ASIC-mining or Cloud-mining No problem, I just wanted to be sure that you understood why. I don't want anyone to feel like they were getting cheated; the dividends are always paid a bit after Noon, as the script just runs a little bit after 12PM |
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2014-08-08 12:03:57 dividend B.MINE ฿0.06907248
2014-08-08 12:02:16 sell 200 ฿0.01475000 B.MINE
The dividents ware a little bit late, but I am sure you will correct it.
Dividends are run automatically on Havelock's script, I don't have control of the exact timing that dividends are issued. They actually always run a little after Noon. Dividends are paid to whomever holds the MINE share at that time, so the new holder of the MINE shares received the dividends, as they should have. Just like SELL divs, be sure that they've been paid that day before selling on the market. I am surprised - you did manual corrections in similar situations. OK, then please correct your declaration at "Overview" section here: https://www.havelockinvestments.com/fund.php?symbol=B.MINE: "B.MINE allows its holder to receive daily dividends of the theoretical mining output of a 5GH/s Bitcoin miner. Dividends will be paid to holders of B.MINE at 12:00PM Eastern Time each day. " so nobody else will be in my situation - loss of 0.025 BTC for 100 seconds I have done manual corrections when there was an error made on my part. However, this is a standard occurrence that dividends are paid soon after Noon and not exactly at 12:00PM ET, so there was no error made on my part here. From the contract: Dividend Payout Times
All reasonable care will be taken to pay out dividends on time. In the event that the Manager is available to pay out dividends on time, for any reason, then dividends will be paid out as soon as possible afterwards. The holders of the contracts are entitled to receive dividends at the time that the Manager pays the dividends, not at the scheduled time at which dividends are normally paid.
It's the same situation as if a SELL holder had sold the shares before the dividends were paid - you have to ensure that you see the dividends in your account, don't rely on the time to see if they've been paid yet. |
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2014-08-08 12:03:57 dividend B.MINE ฿0.06907248
2014-08-08 12:02:16 sell 200 ฿0.01475000 B.MINE
The dividents ware a little bit late, but I am sure you will correct it.
Dividends are run automatically on Havelock's script, I don't have control of the exact timing that dividends are issued. They actually always run a little after Noon. Dividends are paid to whomever holds the MINE share at that time, so the new holder of the MINE shares received the dividends, as they should have. Just like SELL divs, be sure that they've been paid that day before selling on the market. |
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Period 17, Day 0 Report - August 8, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 311.36627347
Total Units: 12777
NAV/U: BTC 0.02436927
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Period 16 End Report - August 8, 2014
Previous Units 12515
EXCH Sold 262
Less Buybacks 0
New Total Units 12777
Previous Balance 328.26220943
Price per EXCH 0.02701639
Gross Sales of EXCH 7.07829418
Less Fees 0.02831328
Less Dividends 22.18017340
Less Buybacks 0
Less Mgmt Fee 0.13744258
Net Balance 312.99457435
End of Period NAV/U 0.02449671
New Difficulty 19,729,645,941
New Daily Dividend 0.00012744
New Reserve per Unit 0.02548800
NAV/U Less New Reserve = 0.02449671 - 0.02548800= -0.00099129
SELL Dividend None (Because NAV/U is less than the new Reserve (200 Days of Dividends))
Days of Dividends On Hand ~192
You'll notice that I calculate the new Dividend to eight digits and multiply that times 200 Days to get the new Reserve. Those of you that did your own calculations may come up with a slightly different number if you chose not to round or to round elsewhere.
New EXCH Sales Price 0.02523161
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Cool that you quote this exact post. This one honestly hit me like a truck back then. I thought I had DMS figured through and through but those were several paragraphs of news to me!
I felt the same way! It seems somewhat obvious in retrospect now, but you can tell that even he felt that he was 'giving something away' when he said it. |
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Period 16, Day 12 Report - August 7, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 312.99457435 Total Units: 12777 NAV/U: BTC 0.02449671With this being the third Period without a SELL dividend (Spoiler alert!  ), I'm reminded of something Deprived said nearly a year ago regarding DMS. Though BDD and DMS are structured a bit differently, they function very similarly at a basic MINE/SELL level. Not to say that this is the case now, as much more hashpower may be / will be coming online soon, but it's a thought that has stuck with me: On a last note let me give a (probably irresponsible - but I've had few beers so who cares) teaser. The biggest profits to be made trading DMS are yet to come - predicting the cross-over point where difficulty ceases rising and the price of MINING gos through the roof (SELLING has no exit route other than paying 90% of NAV/U to MINING). I don't pretend to know exactly when that occurs but when it does it's going to catch a lot of people by surprise.
I've posted the full quote below for complete context: I've had a few (i.e. a lot of) beers so apologies if I'm not as clear as I could be. MINING can't ever reach 0 or near to it (relative to the price of PURCHASE). That's because if there's a massive rise then immediately there's a large dividend to SELLING reducing the NVA/U of PURCHASE.
After EVERY increase i ndifficulty greater than a few % MINING is always going to be paying dividends equal to 1/400th of NAV/U per day. That sets an absolute minimum on the value/price of MINING (depending on what you believe the minimum to be between dfficulty changes).
Where the contract is currently silent is on the situation where MINING's dividends/value end up being effectively rounding errors (which requires a few orders of magnitude increase in difficulty). Whilst I believe that unlikely (prices were, in part, set based on what I believed to be best/worst cases in the short-mid term) it obviously isn't theoretically impossible (note that if it occurs then nearly all ASICs produced to date would mine less coins than the power cost of running them let alone any recovery of sunk costs).
My expectation was (and remains) that at some point in the not too distant future MINING will end up being the majority of PURCHASE value - and SELLING will then vote to close the fund (obtainin 10% of NAV/U rather than the 0% they'd receive back if they waited). I don't want to poison the pool by giving by prediction of when that will occur but rather obviously it would have to occur between difficulty increasing by 1 order of magnitude (which is almost certain) and it increasing by 2 orders of magnitude (which I believe to be highly unlikely with current technology).
If it actually happens that MINING dividends drop below 10 satoshis per day then we DO have a problem that isn't covered by the contract. I believe it exceedingly unlikely that will happen without a period of stagnation previously (where SELLING should rationally vote to close) as the break-even point for those obtaining free hardware and $0.01/KWh electricity falls before that with current technology (and that's the edge case I used when setting hashes/share initially to avoid this problem).
It may not be the most satisfcatory answer ever - but my response is that:
a) It isn't likely to happen.
b) If it does happen then I'll sort something out.
In retrospect there's a few changes I should have made when designing DMS - one of which definitely IS provision for reverse splits to keep the price of MINING in a sensible range.
Do bear in mind when considering this that you'd only be discussing dividends per month of under 1% of current market value of MINING - whatever else is the case it's entirely trivial when currently assessing the value of MINING.
On a last note let me give a (probably irresponsible - but I've had few beers so who cares) teaser. The biggest profits to be made trading DMS are yet to come - predicting the cross-over point where difficulty ceases rising and the price of MINING gos through the roof (SELLING has no exit route other than paying 90% of NAV/U to MINING). I don't pretend to know exactly when that occurs but when it does it's going to catch a lot of people by surprise.
From a management perspective it's been a fun (and profitable) security to run - right up until recently. Hopefully we can get back to that : it offers a legitimate method for people to bet on their judgment vs others KNOWING in advance the odds they get - which is very rare in BTC land (most betting services either don't give fixed odds, have no market depth or are just random in outcome).
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Period 16, Day 11 Report - August 6, 2014
Balance Post Divs: BTC 314.70924775
Total Units: 12777
NAV/U: BTC 0.02463091
Hey guys, have been very busy lately, so I appreciate anyone answering questions in the thread here.
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