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1161  Other / Off-topic / Re: Least action principle as an alternative proof of work system on: September 12, 2012, 04:14:35 AM
I've just had an idea about how to insert information, thus avoiding the whole tournament scheme and switching back to a more bitcoin-like process.

Let's say we have 40 molecules that we want to fold.   We can code information using the permutations of these molecules.  There are 40! permutations, which is about 2^160.  That's about enough to encode a bitcoin address (as it is precisely a RMD-160).

So, a miner must compute minimal values for each molecule, in a decreasing order, assuming there is a way to compare minima for different molecules (maybe with a ratio energy/molecular mass or something).  The overall sum of all values is used to compare the work of different miners.

By doing so, a miner can publish his result as soon as he finds them, pretty much as in with bitcoins.  I'm pretty sure this information can not be used by other miners to forge their own result.  Yet it's not obvious and should be studied more seriously.  I like the idea, though.


PS.  Mapping permutations is not an easy task but it seems to be well known in maths.  Also, we don't have to use a finite set of molecules.  As long as a molecule has a unique, unambiguous way to write its chemical composition, we'll be fine:  we just hash this expression and sort the resulting numbers.  Then the miner just has to encode its bitcoin address using a permutation of this list of molecules.
1162  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's talk about how hot Asian girls are. on: September 12, 2012, 03:53:39 AM
same woman:

Yeah that's what I thought:  it really depends of the picture and the make up.  On this one it's easy to suspect she had a lifting.

Still, so far she looks well for her age, indeed.
1163  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's talk about how hot Asian girls are. on: September 12, 2012, 03:25:23 AM
What do you guys think about this one?


btw she's 57 years old, and this photo is very recent, from a few weeks ago.

She looks great for her age but she is also well dressed and seems to have a lot of make up.  Show her in a more casual set up.
1164  Other / Off-topic / Least action principle as an alternative proof of work system on: September 12, 2012, 03:17:48 AM
It is often objected that the current computing task performed by miners is a waste of CPU.  Though many good answers have been given against this idea, the most basic is still that we just don't know any other way of electing nodes in an anonymous, decentralized and verifiable way.  Sure, it would be great if the mining process could have a usefull side effect.  But so far we just don't know any way to do that.

I've been thinking about it and here is a rough idea:  using the least action principle to solve physical problems.  As you may know, finding the correct folding process for long molecules is a very tough problem to solve with a computer.  It is so tough that it often requires the use of a large number of computers working together in a framework such as BOINC (see folding).   IIRC, this problem is solved using the least action principle (or the least configurational energy, I confess I don't know the details much, but you get the idea), which is the at the root of both classical and quantum mechanics.  Basically, all nodes try to find an geometrical structure of the molecule that minimizes a certain function.  They use more or less a brute force method:  they try plenty of structures until they find one that gives an action that is considered low enough.

See the parallel with the proof of work system used in bitcoin?

Now, of course replacing the cryptographic proof of work by a least action calculus would not be easy, because they are still some very crucial differences.

In a cryptographic proof, you can put information in your work, so that nobody can "steal" your work.

Let's call "PAYLOAD" the message you must work on (in bitcoin, that would be the Merkle root of the transactions).

If you want people to have an incentive to work on this payload, they have to be allowed to add some way to identify themselves, so instead of computing a hash of the form:

PAYLOAD:NONCE

They will compute a hash of the form:

PAYLOAD:USER_ID:NONCE

In bitcoin the USER_ID is basically the equivalent of the coin_base transaction.

With the least action, it is much more difficult to do something like that, because the action depends only on the sequence of amino acids and their geometrical structure.   The sequence is the equivalent of the payload, and the geometrical structure is the equivalent of the nonce.  There is no way to include any extra information.

This means that as soon as someone publishes a particularly efficient folding, there is no way to prevent anyone to just quickly copy it and also publish it to the network pretending he found it himself.   Trying to use timing consideration would probably be useless, as the inevitable latency in the network makes it impossible to make sure of the exact time a message was introduced.  That's basically the main reason why the double spending problem existed and why bitcoin had to solve it.

Isn't there a way to overcome this difficulty, though?  I believe there has to be.  It would work in the same way as sport events (I was inspired here by chess tournaments):  you need to find a way to force players to admit their defeat.

##
EDIT:  This scheme is probably not the best way to do this.  See next message for a better idea.
##

Here is the basic idea.

First, we share a list of molecules that we want to work on.  Then we organize the "competition", pretty much as we would do for a sport event:

- We register all players.  They are of course identified by a public key.   Decentralizing this step might not be easy, but I doubt it's impossible ;
- "Round" begins:  players compute actions for each molecule.  They can focus on a particular molecule, or work on all of them.  Doesn't matter.  If they want to work on only one, they just pick one random geometric structure for all the others, but in the end they publish a result for each molecule ;
- they don't publish clear text results:  they publish encrypted, signed results.  The encryption scheme has been chosen by the player and only him knows the key (which is either an assymetric key or a symetric key, in which case it is necessary a different one for each round ;
- when a player receives the (encrypted) results of an other player, he must sign it and publish his signed version to the rest of the network ;
- once a certain ratio of player has submitted their results, or once all players that have published their results agree that some time limit is over, the round is finished ;
- at this moment, all results are available in their encrypted version, and they are all signed by all players who have published some results ;
- Now all players publish their decryption key.  Everyone can see who has found the minimal action, and nobody can pretend he did it if he actually did not.
- We can choose to assign a different crypto-currency for each molecule, or mesure the relative progress for each molecule and select the player who has reach the best progress for any molecule.  Does not matter much.
- The winner has the right to publish a block of transactions for this crypto-currency, the first transaction being a creation transaction, just as in bitcoin.

There are certainly lots of difficulties with this scheme.  One that I see is that in order to verify the block chain, one must know the whole history of all the tournaments that occured.  That can require a lot of disk space.  But hopefully with increasing disk capacities it should not be that big of a problem.

Well, here it is.  I know it can look far fetched, but I believe the "bitcoin is a waste of CPU" argument is not a stupid one.  So I really wanted to imagine an alternative protocol that would solve this issue.  Or at least I tried.

1165  Other / Politics & Society / Re: In an AnCap society, would it be possible to eat your children? on: September 12, 2012, 01:35:25 AM
1166  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Post-2007 SecondLife (sans admins), here we come! on: September 12, 2012, 01:30:50 AM
Not sure I get the exact point of this thread, but it makes me think of this idea I red once, according to which the Internet itself is a MMORPG.
1167  Local / Discussions générales et utilisation du Bitcoin / Re: Site d'introduction francophone au Bitcoin on: September 11, 2012, 11:08:12 PM
Bah, ça serait plutôt de lister ces sites-là à un endroit. On pourrait faire un "sticky" sur le forum? Il y a de bonnes chances que les nouveaux se pointent ici et cherchent des références, ça serait déjà un début.

Ok en effet, tu peux épingler ce fil (le titre actuel convient parfaitement) ou demander à un admin de le faire.

On ajoutera des liens au fur et à mesure.
1168  Other / Politics & Society / Re: 92 year old WWII veteran kills intruder with rifle on: September 11, 2012, 09:39:49 AM
Though I am a supporter of gun ownership and the right to defend one's home, I do also believe this story is a bit stretched indeed.  This guy was probably in his own right to self defense, but I do not like the way people say he's a hero or something.

He should have shot a warning shot.  The japanese case mentionned above proves that honest mistakes can happen.

Also, what's stopping us to think that the guy was kind of happy of the idea that a burgler entered his house, so that he could enjoyed the manhunt and the kill?  It's not as if the presence of a stranger in your house should give you a total license to kill.   I'm ok to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, considering his advanced age (he probably could not think as fast as a young man) and all...  But felicitations?  Honors?  I don't think so.  Though it's not a crime, it's not really a good example either, as it is not the wisest use of a gun, to say the least.


«  Hum, I haven't recently heard of this old man who lives nearby.  Maybe I should check he's ok.  Oh, the door is loose.  "Mr xXXX??"  Damned, Why am I shouting his name?  I recall the old man doesn't hear anything.  I think I hear some footsteps in the stairs.  Oh, here he is!  Hello.... hang on, what does he hold in his han....  BANG!! »

1169  Economy / Economics / Re: A Resource Based Economy on: September 11, 2012, 06:21:50 AM
One of these days, I'll read this whole thread carefully.  I like the subject and I've been thinking a bit about it during recent years.

Post-scarcity economy?  I'd be happy to see it.  What's not to like in the idea of not having to work for pretty much anything?   But why does it have to mean that money should be forbidden??

If things must tend to become free, that just means that prices must tend to zero.  So in other words:  just let prices fell down!

To do so we need a stable and incorruptible money supply, because it is needed to correctly measure the value of things, that is to say the relative and absolute abundance of things.   As the amount of available things increases, their price will drop, until it eventually reaches zero, in ten, an hundred, a thousand years... who knows.

But making a decent monetary tool is not enough.  We also need to stop preventing people from producing.  Here in Europe, farmers can not produce cereals, milk and other basic products beyond quotas.  Believe it or not:  it is forbidden.   There is something similar regarding real estate.  For some strange reasons, it seems that everything is done to prevent entrepreneurs to build houses and residential high buildings.  As a result, there are not enough decent accommodation for everyone and people still have to struggle to pay their rent.  To me, this is much, much more outrageous than fractional reserve banking or other stuff that Zeitgeist is complaining about.

To reach a post-scarcity economy, we have to allow people to produce, so that abundance can arise and thus lower the price of things.

Trying to forbid the usage of money is just silly.  It is very much a communist idea and you'll end up with everything free indeed, but with empty shelves in grocery stores:



1170  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Anti Fractional Reserve Day on: September 11, 2012, 05:49:35 AM
Fractional reserve gold is a bad idea and an even worse one for bitcoin. Bitcoin was created, in part, to escape the manipulations of FRB.

The big difference is that it is much easier, and virtually costless, to withdraw your funds.  So FRB is much more armless with bitcoins because people can have most of their savings on their own PC.

Also, there is very little you can do against that.  But I guess the proposed idea on this thread is meant exactly for this purpose:  putting some pressure on exchanges so they are extremely cautious in their fractional reserve rates, and ultimately they don't use FRB at all.

So, the idea does actually make some sense.  My bad.
1171  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Anti Fractional Reserve Day on: September 11, 2012, 05:25:19 AM
Because it's theft of labor by legal decree.

It is not.

The fact that not all customers withdraw their funds in the same time allows them to use statistics in order to increase their ability to repay their debts towards their clients.  There is nothing wrong in a clever use of statistics, clients know what is happening and they pretty much always get their fund back in time, which is the only thing that was promised.  So no, this is not a theft in any way.
1172  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Anti Fractional Reserve Day on: September 11, 2012, 05:19:38 AM
What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??   Banks do not lie to you...

We are talking about Bitcoin, not banks.

Oops.  I totally missed that.   Sorry.


PS.  Well, the idea is more or less the same, anyway.
1173  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Anti Fractional Reserve Day on: September 11, 2012, 05:04:31 AM
Because we need to coordinate such efforts to make them work. Sometimes individual behavior is good. Sometimes you have to cooperate in groups to succeed. There's nothing wrong about group effort. It is how civilization was born.

What do you have against fractional reserve, anyway??   Banks do not lie to you.  On your balance sheet it is written "credit" and "debit", not "deposit".  So the bank does not make any mystery of the fact the money you "own", is actually some money the bank owes you.  If you don't believe in its ability to repay you on time, fine, just get your money back right now.  I don't get why you should wait for other people to do the same thing in the same time.  If you do that, then yes indeed the bank might not be able to pay you.  Bravo:  you'd be creating the very thing you were advocating against.  What for exactly?  To prove your point?

Why do you want to destroy a system that hundreds of millions people are happy with (or at least, do not complain), when you can just step away from it peacefully?
1174  Other / Politics & Society / Re: We already live in a Anarcho-Capitalist world. on: September 11, 2012, 04:38:30 AM
Over 150 judicial and defense corporations (aka countries or governments) compete for your citizenship and taxation. Not pleased with your current one? Pick another or build your own.

Flexible options are available such as the nearly tax-free city-states of Monaco, Hong-Kong and Singapore. Confederate republics such as Switzerland and the United States are happy to provide you with the level of sovereignty you desire.

Not pleased with the current actions of overreaching defense corporations such as the US Military, NATO and the UN? Contact your local resistance group or arms supplier today.

This kind of blows my mind.

I mean ok but... with such a point of view, was there any point in history when there was anything but a worldwide anarcho-capitalism?  Does this very concept mean anything in that sense?
1175  Other / Politics & Society / Re: In an AnCap society, would it be possible to eat your children? on: September 11, 2012, 04:21:41 AM
1176  Local / Discussions générales et utilisation du Bitcoin / Re: Site d'introduction francophone au Bitcoin on: September 11, 2012, 03:28:53 AM
Ben, il y a bien bitcoin.fr, le wiki francophone, le blog de boussac, et sûrement plein d'autres.

Chaque lien devrait te donner d'autres liens externes, donc tu as en fait un peu l'embarras du choix.

Je ne pense pas qu'on puisse dire qu'il exite un site francophone de référence, dans la mesure où les francophones sont assez discrets dans le développement du client principal.

1177  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Anti Fractional Reserve Day on: September 10, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
This really is a silly idea.  For plenty of reasons.

Do you know Eric Cantona?  The soccer player?

He made exactly the same call in december 2010.   When you start to have the same political ideas as a soccer player, it can't be good, can it?

In a nutshell, if you don't like the fractional reserve system, fine, just drawback all your money, buy precious metals or bitcoins, do not ever borrow money from a bank, and that's about it.

Why do people always refuse to do anything unless millions of people do as them?  This is just a silly group behavior.

1178  Other / Off-topic / Re: Let's talk about how hot Asian girls are. on: September 08, 2012, 03:56:47 AM
A CGI:

1179  Other / Off-topic / Re: Really OFF-TOPIC: Trypophobia WARNING: THIS CAN BE DISTURBING on: September 08, 2012, 03:47:23 AM
OK...

We stop now.
1180  Other / Off-topic / Re: Really OFF-TOPIC: Trypophobia WARNING: THIS CAN BE DISTURBING on: September 08, 2012, 02:17:25 AM
At some point I did regret having created this thread, but now that I think of it, it does help to talk about it and try to withstand watching these things.

I did find the name of the plant I was talking about, for instance.  It was in the youtube video above.  It's actually the lotus fruit pod:



It's still a bit difficult to look at it, but it's getting easier.
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