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381  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 04, 2015, 05:41:20 PM
Premise 1: Empiricism (i.e. gaining knowledge through experience of physical phenomena) cannot explore or conclude upon that which is not physical.  This is axiomatic (i.e. this premise is true).

Premise 2: By definition, the defining characteristic of God is non-physical.  This is axiomatic (i.e. this premise is true).

Therefore: Empiricism cannot explore or conclude upon God. This is a sound deduction (the conclusion follows from true premises).

That is the crux of my point, and you must refute that exact point to stand a chance at being correct.  I'll give you the rest of your natural life to do so, and give you $1 million if successful.

Okay, do you have $1 million and are you ready to give it to anyone who would refute that point (in case you have that much in the first place, of course)?

Lol Nice.

I don't disclose my wealth, so take that as you wish.

I would gladly enter into this agreement, but I would clarify some things before actually doing so (e.g. the definition of God used in premise 2 is that of an "omnipotent creator of reality," which needn't actually be proven true or false for the argument to work, but rather is assumed to be true because it is a commonly-accepted conceptualization of what a monotheistic god is).  Other clarifications are also necessary, e.g. that empiricism cannot *soundly* conclude about God (saying something like "Empiricism can soundly conclude that it can't conclude about God," or something similar, doesn't count).  There would be a few others.

But on the whole, yes.

I didn't ask about your wealth, I asked whether you have 1 million dollars, since it was you who said that you would give that amount (not me asking in the first place). Do you follow me?

Asking if I have $1 million dollars is asking me about my wealth.  Or at least it's asking about it enough to the point where an honest answer could jeopardize my safety.

Let's put it this way -- I may or may not have $1 million, and if I do, I'll gladly enter into such an agreement.
382  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 04, 2015, 05:00:41 PM
Premise 1: Empiricism (i.e. gaining knowledge through experience of physical phenomena) cannot explore or conclude upon that which is not physical.  This is axiomatic (i.e. this premise is true).

Premise 2: By definition, the defining characteristic of God is non-physical.  This is axiomatic (i.e. this premise is true).

Therefore: Empiricism cannot explore or conclude upon God. This is a sound deduction (the conclusion follows from true premises).

That is the crux of my point, and you must refute that exact point to stand a chance at being correct.  I'll give you the rest of your natural life to do so, and give you $1 million if successful.

Okay, do you have $1 million and are you ready to give it to anyone who would refute that point (in case you have that much in the first place, of course)?

Lol Nice.

I don't disclose my wealth, so take that as you wish.

I would gladly enter into this agreement, but I would clarify some things before actually doing so (e.g. the definition of God used in premise 2 is that of an "omnipotent creator of reality," which needn't actually be proven true or false for the argument to work, but rather is assumed to be true because it is a commonly-accepted conceptualization of what a monotheistic god is).  Other clarifications are also necessary, e.g. that empiricism cannot *soundly* conclude about God (saying something like "Empiricism can soundly conclude that it can't conclude about God," or something similar, doesn't count).  There would be a few others.

But on the whole, yes.
383  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 04, 2015, 04:42:08 PM
@deisik

None of the atheists has any logic that the things written here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395 are false. All they can do is SAY that these things are false and make fun

You forget awfully quickly.  I referenced the exact logical fallacy(ies) you committed with regards to every single point on there.  The fact that I'm a theist and not an atheist should be especially troubling for you, then.

Not a single thing there provides a shred of evidence for God.  Zip, zero, nada.  If you forgot, I can do it all again.  

Edit:  To clarify, it's actually not so much that every point you mention is provably wrong, but rather it is impossible to prove them correct in terms of being proof of God.  You just think it's proof for God, because you say to yourself, "Oh, this looks like it makes sense!"  

It only makes sense to you because you lack the awareness to know that you are unsoundly filling in gaps which cannot be filled by the merit of the arguments you provided.  Logic doesn't work by saying, "I guess this looks good enough."  A sound argument is one that cannot possibly be overturned by any other theoretical or real consideration.  Every point you mention begs that alternative considerations be examined, and unfortunately none of these other considerations are disproved by the arguments you present.

As I have said, proof of anything exists for sure only in the presence of great joy or great pain. Anybody can take any evidence and convince himself that it isn't evidence and that it doesn't prove anything... except in the presence of great joy or great pain.

The point? In a balanced world where one looks at the evidence against God and compares it with the evidence for God, the evidence for God almost entirely outweighs the evidence against God.

I respect your freedom to believe for yourself anything that you can hold your faith in.

Smiley

1)  Proof exists in the presence of joy or pain?  Well, there you go, that's your problem.  You rationalize by emotion, not reason.
It is true that this is a problem. But it isn't my problem alone. It is your problem as well. You are using it as am I.

Neither of us is in great joy or great pain regarding the things that we produce as evidence or proof. Thus, we are able to accept and reject anything that we want. If we couldn't do such, this discussion would have been over long ago.

In the event that emotions become strong in one way or another, we focus on our emotions, and our strength of will is taken away so that we accept things as evidence or proof much easier.


Quote
2)  I believe in God for logical reasons, so there is no possible benefit to me to ignore any evidence for God.  If the things you mentioned actually are proof of God, I would be among the first to embrace it and share it with others.  I have no motive to denounce what you claim is proof.  But, it simply isn't proof.  Accordingly, it's not about convincing myself that it isn't proof.  It's about you convincing yourself that it is proof (and simultaneously convincing yourself that logical fallacies don't apply to you simply because you don't want them to don't understand them).
Thank you. As I said above, you have strength to keep from accepting evidence as evidence and proof as proof if you so desire. As it is for me, so it is for you. Thank you, again.


Quote
Not possible for there to be physical evidence of God.  Period.
Everything physical is physical evidence of God.


Quote
3) I respect your right to be intentionally ignorant, and am absolutely floored by your ability to do so.

I respect your ability to resist the evidence and proof that I show you. I accept that you have the ability, at least at this stage of the game, to demean my character by directly calling me ignorant.

Smiley

Responding in order:

1)  Regardless of how you feel, something that is logically true or false remains logically true or false.  There's an entire logical fallacy specifically set aside for what you are describing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

So much for that argument of yours.

2)  See #1.  It's actually the opposite.  I have the strength to maintain logical reasoning without letting emotions influence my judgment.

3)   No, nothing physical is evidence of God because the defining characteristic that distinguishes God from all possible forms he could take (or make) is a non-physical characteristic (i.e omnipotence, or a total lack of constraint).  

Again, the limitations of inductive reasoning strictly prohibit the possibility of physical evidence for God.  This is not up for debate.  It's black-and-white, and all I can tell you is that you need to learn more about inductive reasoning.

This can be soundly deduced as follows:

Premise 1: Empiricism (i.e. gaining knowledge through experience of physical phenomena) cannot explore or conclude upon that which is not physical.  This is axiomatic (i.e. this premise is true).

Premise 2: By definition, the defining characteristic of God is non-physical.  This is axiomatic (i.e. this premise is true).

Therefore: Empiricism cannot explore or conclude upon God. This is a sound deduction (the conclusion follows from true premises).

That is the crux of my point, and you must refute that exact point to stand a chance at being correct.  I'll give you the rest of your natural life to do so, and give you $1 million if successful.

4)  Again, I have no reason to resist any evidence for God if I believe in God (and I do).  I would *love* to see evidence for God, but unfortunately it's a logical impossibility.

I'm directly calling you ignorant because, well...can you think of a better word for someone who willfully dismisses absolute proof of their own logical fallacies?

 
384  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 04, 2015, 02:41:39 PM
@deisik

None of the atheists has any logic that the things written here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395 are false. All they can do is SAY that these things are false and make fun

You forget awfully quickly.  I referenced the exact logical fallacy(ies) you committed with regards to every single point on there.  The fact that I'm a theist and not an atheist should be especially troubling for you, then.

Not a single thing there provides a shred of evidence for God.  Zip, zero, nada.  If you forgot, I can do it all again.  

Edit:  To clarify, it's actually not so much that every point you mention is provably wrong, but rather it is impossible to prove them correct in terms of being proof of God.  You just think it's proof for God, because you say to yourself, "Oh, this looks like it makes sense!"  

It only makes sense to you because you lack the awareness to know that you are unsoundly filling in gaps which cannot be filled by the merit of the arguments you provided.  Logic doesn't work by saying, "I guess this looks good enough."  A sound argument is one that cannot possibly be overturned by any other theoretical or real consideration.  Every point you mention begs that alternative considerations be examined, and unfortunately none of these other considerations are disproved by the arguments you present.

As I have said, proof of anything exists for sure only in the presence of great joy or great pain. Anybody can take any evidence and convince himself that it isn't evidence and that it doesn't prove anything... except in the presence of great joy or great pain.

The point? In a balanced world where one looks at the evidence against God and compares it with the evidence for God, the evidence for God almost entirely outweighs the evidence against God.

I respect your freedom to believe for yourself anything that you can hold your faith in.

Smiley

1)  Proof exists in the presence of joy or pain?  Well, there you go, that's your problem.  You rationalize by emotion, not reason.

2)  I believe in God for logical reasons, so there is no possible benefit to me to ignore any evidence for God.  If the things you mentioned actually are proof of God, I would be among the first to embrace it and share it with others.  I have no motive to denounce what you claim is proof.  But, it simply isn't proof.  Accordingly, it's not about convincing myself that it isn't proof.  It's about you convincing yourself that it is proof (and simultaneously convincing yourself that logical fallacies don't apply to you simply because you don't want them to don't understand them).

Not possible for there to be physical evidence of God.  Period.

3) I respect your right to be intentionally ignorant, and am absolutely floored by your ability to do so.
385  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 03, 2015, 07:55:21 PM
@deisik

None of the atheists has any logic that the things written here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395 are false. All they can do is SAY that these things are false and make fun

You forget awfully quickly.  I referenced the exact logical fallacy(ies) you committed with regards to every single point on there.  The fact that I'm a theist and not an atheist should be especially troubling for you, then.

Not a single thing there provides a shred of evidence for God.  Zip, zero, nada.  If you forgot, I can do it all again.  

Edit:  To clarify, it's actually not so much that every point you mention is provably wrong, but rather it is impossible to prove them correct in terms of being proof of God.  You just think it's proof for God, because you say to yourself, "Oh, this looks like it makes sense!"  

It only makes sense to you because you lack the awareness to know that you are unsoundly filling in gaps which cannot be filled by the merit of the arguments you provided.  Logic doesn't work by saying, "I guess this looks good enough."  A sound argument is one that cannot possibly be overturned by any other theoretical or real consideration.  Every point you mention begs that alternative considerations be examined, and unfortunately none of these other considerations are disproved by the arguments you present.
386  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Should Gavin resign from developement of Bitcoin? [POLL] on: June 02, 2015, 10:09:22 PM
It's so refreshing that people are making such definitive conclusions about a dev who has guided development of this project for years, especially when they are so technically versed about the issue at hand  Roll Eyes

My guess is that somewhere between 90-99.9% of people who are weighing in on this subject have absolutely no clue about what the technical ramifications of his proposal actually are.  People are just upset their investments might dwindle, and their concerns are based on what they hear from the 100th person in a game of telephone.

We only discuss it in the public arena because the devs have no consensus and gavin tries the power grab by the venue of ignoring the devteam and trying to lure in the community with his reddit-mob and cult followers who heavily manipulate the discussion and public opinion with lies and distorted arguments.
 
What do you think why we are even discussing this shit? Because Gavin wants the to be the sole leader of bitcoin, that's why we even have to discuss this shit.
So really he has to go because he's in the process of delivering a blow to everyone including himself.

The community will not come to rest as long as he is still trying to to pull his ego-bullshit off. Nobody wants him now. We prefer our Bitcoin healthy.

There is quite a couple of things going wrong right now.

Let him do what he wants.  That's the nature of decentralization.  Any dev can propose any changes he likes, implement them, and release a client.  They can jump and scream, advertise it, and persuade people to use it.

Where's the problem?  The only issue I see is that the (extremely) overwhelming majority of people, if asked to make a case for or against Gavin's proposal, would have no idea what to say, or would have no idea whether the case they do make is right or wrong. 
387  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Should Gavin resign from developement of Bitcoin? [POLL] on: June 02, 2015, 07:36:28 PM
It's so refreshing that people are making such definitive conclusions about a dev who has guided development of this project for years, especially when they are so technically versed about the issue at hand  Roll Eyes

My guess is that somewhere between 90-99.9% of people who are weighing in on this subject have absolutely no clue about what the technical ramifications of his proposal actually are.  People are just upset their investments might dwindle, and their concerns are based on what they hear from the 100th person in a game of telephone.
388  Other / Off-topic / Re: Scientific proof that God exists? on: June 01, 2015, 10:47:59 PM

 Shocked

Lol Jesus tap-dancing Christ!  

Haha thanks for making it obvious you never read my references.

Lol an electrical transformer...resistance...superconductors.  Please, PLEASE tell me that was a joke.

The problem of induction is about the limits of inductive reasoning, you idiot!

LOL!

I'm getting to the point where I can almost predict your responses, and Decky's.

LOL !

 Cheesy

I'm envious of your talent.  I've never, ever seen someone try to support their argument by laughing off their own misunderstanding of a word meaning before.   Wow, I don't know how you did it.  

Police officer handcuffs you: "You've been charged with first degree murder."

You:  First degree murder?  No way!  All I dd was shoot the guy in the face!  I planned it ages ago!  I had to find the perfect gun."

Officer:   Sir, thank you for your confession.

You:  What are you talking about?  I told you there is no way that I did it!

Officer:  But...you just told me that you shot him in the face and that it was pre-meditated.

You:  Yeah...so?

Officer: Sir, first degree murder is premeditated killing.

You:  LMAO!  Oh, you officers and your "laws."  Don't you know those laws are changing all the time?  Murder means hugging, duh!

Officer:  Sir...are you retarded?

You:  Hahahaha you know, Officer, I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.  You know, I think I've figured you out.  I see you standing there, and it makes me think that you must either be really, really old to be the only one who thinks the laws of man actually matter, or, you're probably handicapped.  I'm guessing you're in a wheelchair.  Probably a parapalegic.  

Officer:  Sir...I just walked back to my car with you and placed you on the hood to handcuff you. It was only 30 seconds ago...I'm standing right here.

You:   Cheesy  You know, it's like I can predict exactly how you're going to respond!   Cheesy Roll Eyes Undecided Tongue Smiley Grin Cry Shocked Tongue

 Cheesy

This...This explains BADecker perfectly.

I have >4,000 posts, and I self-rank this among the top 5  Cheesy
389  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 01, 2015, 07:38:21 PM
When you post garabage about your common law fantasy, you look even sillier than when you're trying to keep all your religious nonsense straight.

Is this related to that "Freeman on the Land" garbage I've seen when people make complete fools of themselves in court and post it on YouTube as a win?
390  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: June 01, 2015, 04:54:39 PM

Since the evidence for the existence of God is way stronger than the evidence against His existence, any "blind" faith that that exists will be much blinder regarding God not existing.

Smiley

There is no evidence except logical or mathematical. Nothing you've posted is evidence, it's simply your opinion(and it's all very wrong). Just stop.

Now don't go off and suicide yourself just because you can't stand being wrong anymore. Rather, turn to God. He is merciful and loving. He'll be happy to have you join with him.

 Lips sealed


Sure, go join with him...make some donations to the church...God doesn't want you dead he wants you as a contributor, he loves you... he's almighty , all-knowing  but somehow he can't handle money....He always needs money...

Money isn't very tasty.

That's why you get rid of your money as fast as you make it... buying food, etc.

Since God is the formulator of everything that the food, etc., comes from and is made out of, you are essentially giving your money to God just to live and have enjoyment in this life.

Honor God with your money, and your heartfelt thanks, and He will reward you even more.

Smiley

I'll just repost this for the giggles:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10754502#msg10754502
391  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 29, 2015, 04:42:43 PM
but i would like to ask to an atheist what happens after death?
Lots of things, but none of them will involve you. The universe keeps spinning totally indifferent to your existence, as if you never existed at all.

The universe won't care, and you won't care either. Only your loved ones will be affected.

what happens to YOU. not the universe because thats obvious
You cease to exist, and slowly rot away to dust. I know this comes as a shock for you, but that's obvious too.

Well, first off, nobody knows that there were billions of years...
You are aware that when you look into a telescope you are essentially looking back in time? The light from the stars takes tens or hundreds of thousands of years to reach us.

The Hubble Telescope allows us to look back in time an incredible distance. Check out what happens when the Hubble points its camera at a seemingly empty "black" area of space for four months straight. We can see 13 billion year old starlight.

In 2015 the age of the universe is not at all up for debate, it is a scientific fact that our universe is at minumum thirteen billion years old. Fun fact, when you look at the sun you are looking back in time about eleven minutes, or said another way you are viewing the light that left the sun eleven light minutes ago.

Wrong!

We know that the speed of light isn't a constant right now. We know that it is faster sometimes and slower at other times. We know that gravitation affects the speed of light. We also know that other constants aren't always quite the same. In addition, not all scientists believe that Planck's Constant is a constant. Google "variations in Planck's Constant." Keeping this in mind, nobody knows if any of the constants were anywhere near what they are now, say, in the time that we call 10,000 years ago.

Everyone has heard of absolute zero. Few people have heard of "absolute hot." Planck calculated absolute hot. Other scientists calculate figures for absolute hot that are extremely different than Planck's.

We don't really know for a fact that our guesses for the distance away of the far galaxies, or the age of the universe, are even close to reality. And this is common knowledge among scientists and astronomers, though they don't like to look at it or think about it.

Then we have you, proclaiming the guesses as fact.

Smiley

The speed of light is constant in a vaccuum. The only time it varies is in different mediums (through glass, through water, etc.). Gravity wells affects space-time, so it can affect the direction of light, but not the speed of light, which is always constant. You again are claiming your ignorance as an asset. You cannot disclaim facts by throwing bad logic at it.

At the risk of posting a source completely over your head and which you'll find some way to dismiss illogically anyway:  http://www.quora.com/Does-gravity-affect-the-speed-of-light

He's also ignoring the fact that light's velocity remains relatively (i.e. relationally) constant despite one's own changes in velocity.
392  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 29, 2015, 04:36:28 PM
The universe didn't exist for anyone before they were born. Therefore the universe doesn't exist except for the lifetime of people. The suggestion that the universe exists more than your lifetime is all a made up story that you might have heard about before you were born, but that you have apparently forgotten about since.

 Cheesy

Well I glad we cleanly sorted that one out.

WTF am I reading? It doesn't even make any sense. Just some random words bashed together.


Shockingly, I understood this, but it's still inaccurate.  Of course he doesn't realize it, but this is close to an Occam's Razor-type inference based upon all available, pragmatic evidence acquired throughout our life.  It's a perfectly valid conclusion that we can't possibly know whether the Universe does or does not exist in the absence of our experience of it, or some aspect of it.

His mistake is making a definitive conclusion.  He is claiming he knows the Universe doesn't exist in the absence of our experience of it, rather than claiming we can't know, which would be empirically correct.  There is no theoretical way to empirically validate or invalidate the existence of the Universe in the absence of our experience of it.

Way over my head.
One question. If the universe didn't exist before I was born, how did my parents exist to create me?


Evidence suggests that your parents existed to create you, because you see that other children are created from their parents.  If you are a father, you would have witnessed this first hand with the birth of your child(ren).

Here's an analogy I've used previously:

Imagine I bop you on the head and you're knocked unconscious.  While you are in that unconscious state, does the Universe continue to exist?

Suppose you become conscious again, and you seek to answer that very question.  How would you arrive at a conclusion?  One thing you might try is to ask me, the person who bopped you on the head.  I could tell you, "Sure, the Universe continued to exist, because I bopped you on the head, saw you fall unconscious, and was with you the whole time until you woke up."  Sounds pretty legit, but, how do you know I'm telling the truth?  You must now introduce an assumption that I am truthful.

Suppose you tried a different approach.  Suppose you had set up a video camera that was recording you at the time I bopped you on the head, and it was set to record continuously until you woke up.  After waking up, you then check the recording and you see the entire sequence unfold on tape -- i.e. the recording shows me bopping you on the head, shows you falling unconscious, and shows you to be continually unconscious until you wake up.  This, too, sounds pretty legit, but how do you know the recording you're watching isn't the result of some kind of video trickery?  Here, too, you must introduce an assumption that no alterations were made to the recording after you woke up.

Occam's Razor only works with empirical data.  It advises that the best conclusion is that which accounts for all of the data but introduces the fewest assumptions.  Because defining the state of the Universe in the absence of our experience requires introducing assumptions about it, we can simply remove these assumptions and come up with a more sound answer, i.e. we simply don't know what the state of the Universe is like when we don't experience it.  It may not be a practical way to think in all cases, but I believe its hard to argue with the fact that in 100% of cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist, experience of the Universe was present. And, there have been exactly 0 cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist in the absence of the experience of it.


I understand what you're saying, and yet the thought experiment has almost zero utility outside philosophy. Maybe thousands of people suffering and dying every day is just a really realistic simulation to fool me into believing reality is real. Or maybe philosophers have too much luxury to wonder if others' suffering is just a deception.

The philosophical practice of denying things we know to be true doesn't strike me as having a high utility. Logically necessary, but in academia only?

Like the ending of your last post: "there have been exactly 0 cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist in the absence of the experience of it." I understand it to be logically true, but what is the utility of asserting this? Since all knowledge only exists in the universe, which can't be indpendently verified outside of itself, the assertion seems to have no meaning.

Is the point we can't know what we can't know? Because that's a truism with no utility. This is where philosophy loses me.

Regarding the emboldened passage, I've been working for ~6-7 years on trying to change that.  During that time, I've been working on a theoretical model that lends itself to the development of a formula that may provide loads of practical utility.  Once complete, I intend to submit it for peer-review to the most capable audience I can possibly find.  The general idea is to arrive at a workable, practical formula without ever controlling for observer participation in the same way that classical formulas do.  Why has it been ~6-7 years?  Because it's fucking hard  Cheesy  The fact that the formula happens to graph very nicely gives me hope for its validity.

Other than that, you're right.  It's not an obviously practical way to live, but at a fundamental level, assuming such a perspective -- while at the same time dismissing it in favor of practical considerations as you suggest -- can have pragmatic effects.  I hold such a perspective, and I've derived a lot of personal meaning from it which has certainly shaped how I view the world and interact within it.

Well good luck with your work, it sounds revolutionary if it pans out.

Thanks!  I hope it turns out that way, I haven't seen anything else like it anywhere.  It's rare to have a truly unique idea, and this is one of the few ideas (if not the only one) I can truly call my own.  Because such a formula figures observer participation into the mix, the result is naturally one that not only models a relationship between the observer and everything else, but quantifies the effects of observation upon real events.  Specifically, a graphing of this equation seems to suggest that observation is an energy distribution function.  The kicker is that it also seems to provide a theoretical basis establishing the validity of a source of infinite energy.
393  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 28, 2015, 10:10:52 PM
The universe didn't exist for anyone before they were born. Therefore the universe doesn't exist except for the lifetime of people. The suggestion that the universe exists more than your lifetime is all a made up story that you might have heard about before you were born, but that you have apparently forgotten about since.

 Cheesy

Well I glad we cleanly sorted that one out.

WTF am I reading? It doesn't even make any sense. Just some random words bashed together.


Shockingly, I understood this, but it's still inaccurate.  Of course he doesn't realize it, but this is close to an Occam's Razor-type inference based upon all available, pragmatic evidence acquired throughout our life.  It's a perfectly valid conclusion that we can't possibly know whether the Universe does or does not exist in the absence of our experience of it, or some aspect of it.

His mistake is making a definitive conclusion.  He is claiming he knows the Universe doesn't exist in the absence of our experience of it, rather than claiming we can't know, which would be empirically correct.  There is no theoretical way to empirically validate or invalidate the existence of the Universe in the absence of our experience of it.

Way over my head.
One question. If the universe didn't exist before I was born, how did my parents exist to create me?


Evidence suggests that your parents existed to create you, because you see that other children are created from their parents.  If you are a father, you would have witnessed this first hand with the birth of your child(ren).

Here's an analogy I've used previously:

Imagine I bop you on the head and you're knocked unconscious.  While you are in that unconscious state, does the Universe continue to exist?

Suppose you become conscious again, and you seek to answer that very question.  How would you arrive at a conclusion?  One thing you might try is to ask me, the person who bopped you on the head.  I could tell you, "Sure, the Universe continued to exist, because I bopped you on the head, saw you fall unconscious, and was with you the whole time until you woke up."  Sounds pretty legit, but, how do you know I'm telling the truth?  You must now introduce an assumption that I am truthful.

Suppose you tried a different approach.  Suppose you had set up a video camera that was recording you at the time I bopped you on the head, and it was set to record continuously until you woke up.  After waking up, you then check the recording and you see the entire sequence unfold on tape -- i.e. the recording shows me bopping you on the head, shows you falling unconscious, and shows you to be continually unconscious until you wake up.  This, too, sounds pretty legit, but how do you know the recording you're watching isn't the result of some kind of video trickery?  Here, too, you must introduce an assumption that no alterations were made to the recording after you woke up.

Occam's Razor only works with empirical data.  It advises that the best conclusion is that which accounts for all of the data but introduces the fewest assumptions.  Because defining the state of the Universe in the absence of our experience requires introducing assumptions about it, we can simply remove these assumptions and come up with a more sound answer, i.e. we simply don't know what the state of the Universe is like when we don't experience it.  It may not be a practical way to think in all cases, but I believe its hard to argue with the fact that in 100% of cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist, experience of the Universe was present. And, there have been exactly 0 cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist in the absence of the experience of it.


I understand what you're saying, and yet the thought experiment has almost zero utility outside philosophy. Maybe thousands of people suffering and dying every day is just a really realistic simulation to fool me into believing reality is real. Or maybe philosophers have too much luxury to wonder if others' suffering is just a deception.

The philosophical practice of denying things we know to be true doesn't strike me as having a high utility. Logically necessary, but in academia only?

Like the ending of your last post: "there have been exactly 0 cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist in the absence of the experience of it." I understand it to be logically true, but what is the utility of asserting this? Since all knowledge only exists in the universe, which can't be indpendently verified outside of itself, the assertion seems to have no meaning.

Is the point we can't know what we can't know? Because that's a truism with no utility. This is where philosophy loses me.

Regarding the emboldened passage, I've been working for ~6-7 years on trying to change that.  During that time, I've been working on a theoretical model that lends itself to the development of a formula that may provide loads of practical utility.  Once complete, I intend to submit it for peer-review to the most capable audience I can possibly find.  The general idea is to arrive at a workable, practical formula without ever controlling for observer participation in the same way that classical formulas do.  Why has it been ~6-7 years?  Because it's fucking hard  Cheesy  The fact that the formula happens to graph very nicely gives me hope for its validity.

Other than that, you're right.  It's not an obviously practical way to live, but at a fundamental level, assuming such a perspective -- while at the same time dismissing it in favor of practical considerations as you suggest -- can have pragmatic effects.  I hold such a perspective, and I've derived a lot of personal meaning from it which has certainly shaped how I view the world and interact within it.
394  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 28, 2015, 05:51:15 PM
The universe didn't exist for anyone before they were born. Therefore the universe doesn't exist except for the lifetime of people. The suggestion that the universe exists more than your lifetime is all a made up story that you might have heard about before you were born, but that you have apparently forgotten about since.

 Cheesy

Well I glad we cleanly sorted that one out.

WTF am I reading? It doesn't even make any sense. Just some random words bashed together.


Shockingly, I understood this, but it's still inaccurate.  Of course he doesn't realize it, but this is close to an Occam's Razor-type inference based upon all available, pragmatic evidence acquired throughout our life.  It's a perfectly valid conclusion that we can't possibly know whether the Universe does or does not exist in the absence of our experience of it, or some aspect of it.

His mistake is making a definitive conclusion.  He is claiming he knows the Universe doesn't exist in the absence of our experience of it, rather than claiming we can't know, which would be empirically correct.  There is no theoretical way to empirically validate or invalidate the existence of the Universe in the absence of our experience of it.

Way over my head.
One question. If the universe didn't exist before I was born, how did my parents exist to create me?


Evidence suggests that your parents existed to create you, because you see that other children are created from their parents.  If you are a father, you would have witnessed this first hand with the birth of your child(ren).

Here's an analogy I've used previously:

Imagine I bop you on the head and you're knocked unconscious.  While you are in that unconscious state, does the Universe continue to exist?

Suppose you become conscious again, and you seek to answer that very question.  How would you arrive at a conclusion?  One thing you might try is to ask me, the person who bopped you on the head.  I could tell you, "Sure, the Universe continued to exist, because I bopped you on the head, saw you fall unconscious, and was with you the whole time until you woke up."  Sounds pretty legit, but, how do you know I'm telling the truth?  You must now introduce an assumption that I am truthful.

Suppose you tried a different approach.  Suppose you had set up a video camera that was recording you at the time I bopped you on the head, and it was set to record continuously until you woke up.  After waking up, you then check the recording and you see the entire sequence unfold on tape -- i.e. the recording shows me bopping you on the head, shows you falling unconscious, and shows you to be continually unconscious until you wake up.  This, too, sounds pretty legit, but how do you know the recording you're watching isn't the result of some kind of video trickery?  Here, too, you must introduce an assumption that no alterations were made to the recording after you woke up.

Occam's Razor only works with empirical data.  It advises that the best conclusion is that which accounts for all of the data but introduces the fewest assumptions.  Because defining the state of the Universe in the absence of our experience requires introducing assumptions about it, we can simply remove these assumptions and come up with a more sound answer, i.e. we simply don't know what the state of the Universe is like when we don't experience it.  It may not be a practical way to think in all cases, but I believe its hard to argue with the fact that in 100% of cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist, experience of the Universe was present. And, there have been exactly 0 cases where the Universe has been affirmed to exist in the absence of the experience of it.
395  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 28, 2015, 04:46:19 PM
The universe didn't exist for anyone before they were born. Therefore the universe doesn't exist except for the lifetime of people. The suggestion that the universe exists more than your lifetime is all a made up story that you might have heard about before you were born, but that you have apparently forgotten about since.

 Cheesy

Well I glad we cleanly sorted that one out.

WTF am I reading? It doesn't even make any sense. Just some random words bashed together.


Shockingly, I understood this, but it's still inaccurate.  Of course he doesn't realize it, but this is close to an Occam's Razor-type inference based upon all available, pragmatic evidence acquired throughout our life.  It's a perfectly valid conclusion that we can't possibly know whether the Universe does or does not exist in the absence of our experience of it, or some aspect of it.

His mistake is making a definitive conclusion.  He is claiming he knows the Universe doesn't exist in the absence of our experience of it, rather than claiming we can't know, which would be empirically correct.  There is no theoretical way to empirically validate or invalidate the existence of the Universe in the absence of our experience of it.
396  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 27, 2015, 09:12:31 PM
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. The gift of rational thought is perverted and usurped by superstitious brainwashing during the formative years of very nearly all religious adults.

Some linguistic anthropologists regard religion as a language virus, which short circuits the critical thinking pathways in our brains. The gift of primate brain plasticity can also be a curse, when barbaric Mother Nation Culture ignorantly tinkers with nature.

True Detective - Rust talks about Religion

If you love reason, it follows that you must despise its enemies, violence and its ally superstition.

This can be true for members of any religion. But while it is not necessarily true of all the members of every religion, it is mostly true for members of the atheism religion. Why? Because the evidence for the existence of God is overwhelming, as shown here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=737322.msg10718395#msg10718395.

Smiley

Honestly, I don't even know why you keep pushing the "atheism is a religion" point.  It says nothing about Christianity whatsoever, and really doesn't mean much of anything.

What I can tell you is that the reason why we keep pushing back against such an unimportant point is that the reasoning by which you arrive at this point infiltrates all other conclusions that you create.  That is, the way in which you invent definitions on the fly, such that you have many active definitions in play at one time, only serves to make your conclusions inconsistent (via the inconsistent definitions you have in play).

You would be better off just dropping your whole "atheism is a religion" shtick, and then finding a way to re-word your beliefs in a way that's consistent with the language everyone else uses.  Else, we will continue to never understand you, and what we don't understand won't make sense.  And you wonder why we call your blabberings "nonsense."
397  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 27, 2015, 09:08:48 PM


Of course, how does anybody know for a fact that when you are dead, you don't know that you are dead? Has anybody come back from real death and stated such on the witness stand in court? Or is it only hearsay? Or is it only an assumption?

Until I know for a fact that when a person is dead, he/she doesn't know it, I'm not going to stupidly make that assumption.

Smiley

Care to explain how making the assumption that you will live eternally is any more valid?
398  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 26, 2015, 09:55:38 PM
BTW, I never answered this.

Quote
Why do Atheists hate Religion ?

The answer is that they do not, it is the other way around. Actually most atheists I know feel very sad for those that feel they must conform to some doctrine in order to have a better life than the one they currently have. I see there point.

Last post, thread is a waste of time.

Every last one of them, right? Well, you might as well leave after a statement like that.

Smiley

Cow : Pie :: BADecker : Religion
399  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 25, 2015, 09:08:49 PM

Nobody's personal religion is the absolute truth.


So that would include yours.
400  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Why do Atheists hate Religion ? on: May 25, 2015, 08:28:44 PM
The thing that most people don't seem to realize is that a religion is really just a belief system, nothing more. Every human rely on some belief system, whether there be a God involved or not. So you could say everyone is religious, the only thing that separates people is numbers. The guy who has his own personal belief system is not considered religious while millions that adhere to the same system are.

There difference between a belief and a religion is that a religion has ritualistic behavior that is oriented around the belief. As in, believe in XYZ, pray in this specific way, etc, otherwise you won't be granted eternal rewards.

While this is true for folks that barely think about religion or atheism, but rather just live it without thinking. Yet for those who practice their religion, even atheism if the practice it is a religion. Atheists want some information regarding the beginnings of life and human kind. So they focus on scientific "revelations," thereby making the "revelations" their "bible" and the scientists that proclaim the revelations their "priests."

At any rate, those people who don't think much about atheism or other religions, have the personal religion that suggests ignorance about religion. Why? Because they do whatever they do day by day, RELIGIOUSLY.

Smiley

EDIT: Take a look at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1068356.msg11447618#msg11447618 to see why you might not want to be an atheist any longer.

Badecker  we just dont need something to believe in to function.
We dont need to pray to something to feel better about our selfs.
We live as we like.

So if you have a problem with that, then go back to church and ask god if he can kill the free with a flod.

You have been making your point so religiously, that I can't see how you could think that your atheism, at least, is NOT a religion.

If living as you like is your religion, it still is a religion, 'cause you do it religiously. And if it includes atheism, then atheism is a religion for you.

Since you hate religion, you hate atheism and yourself, right?

Smiley

Here's a question for you:  Since you keep claiming atheism is a religion, can you instead describe what it means to be non-religious?  In other words, what criteria does a person need to meet in order to be considered non-religious, according to you?


That's easy. Non-religious is what dead people are (of course, they may be other things as well). It is also a term that applies to animals and inanimate things, since the religion of non-religion is a religion, itself.

 Cheesy

Do you believe every individual, living person is religious then?

Actually, outside of a few who are mentally retarded vegetables, yes... although some of them religiously say they aren't.

Smiley

So, in the past when you said that "religion will be proven true," then you think that the beliefs of every non-retarded, non-vegetable person will also be proven true, including atheists, correct?
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