well, the site is already closed down, liquidation means simply paying out of current assets and thats it. But it will not happen, we have requested from everyone with frozen coins an answer on how to proceed and we have received enough support to try set up a new site instead of going through the bankruptcy procedure. The people that do not want to cooperate will be handled individually. But as a next step there will be a kick-off meeting in Helsinki on 15th of March with the investors on all details for the new site,  the official invitation will follow soon i hope. And yes, it is public unless 100 people intend to come *g , so everyone can join us and discuss the plans.

The investment sums unfortunatley come soley from our "private" money, so we cannot expect any wonders and we have a tight budget and all support is welcome. But as already said, the "official" communication(s) will follow hopefully tomorrow at latest

we decided not to go this way, as the majority of the users did not want to go into liquidation, but expressed their interest to cooperate with the new investors instead. If you are one of the few non-cooperative persons, you should send in an "official" claim to Maciej including best possible evidence on how much you think you should get paid back (in FIAT currency, not bitcoin) and we will check your case and handle it individually.  (depending on how much coins you have frozen etc.). More information will follow within the next days I assume.

at least i did never see a single bitcent of the 18.000 somewhat lost coins, i could have done quite some party with my 618 frozen coins though..... ;-)

@mentor, using curse words will not help i assume....


We will have the official information how to proceed quite soon i hope, the drafts for the communications are about to be ready, but some details still need to be revamped.

Reopening however would also not happen over night, we need to discuss a lot about security / financial issues / organisational issues. Especially to avoid that mistakes from the past could repeat.

is it true grandpa... you really have 1 full Bitcoin? *g

ok thanks for the link, i will check if this is something

Well, the money for these programs does not (like most people think) comes from the taxes they collect. It originally comes from debts... Only these debts create the money everybody uses... And only in the second step taxation comes in so they collect part of the money created from the debts back in, so they can at least pay for the interest and other government spendings. (There is no intention and no possible way to ever pay back the debts that create our money). The year after new debts will be made to create more money to pay back the old debts....

But ok, thats not the point of this thread.... My point is... While it is strongly recommended to critisize the "system" of exausive government spendings from debts, there is no point in refusing to take the money on INDIVIDUAL level, as the fake-money system needs these programs to "create" money. I prefer to put these resources into whatever bitcoin related project for a system change in the right direction. ;-) And a bitmarket peer2peer market would be a great step forward.

Do you have any links to specific funding programs? Or at least the name of the program(s) you have in mind? I am a full time EU buerocrat myself, as i've been working as EU official about three years now, so filling out the stuff might be annoying, but possible. That shouldn't be a bottleneck if it helps bitmarket... *g Unfortunately the funding programs I know of would not fund projects like that. But I work in the chemicals agency, for sure i do not know all the programs they offer. And my colleagues could not give me any useful hints either ;-)


The programs I know are either bound to "special innovation projects" or to "hi-tech product ideas" or specific to agriculture etc.. Usually most of the stuff are simply loans that need to go via a "normal" bank. I do not know any program that would give away "free" money just for sending some business plan for a website.

Well thanks for the hint.

"Accidentially" I work for an EU institution and you can totally forget about it, it just a massive buerocracy and you need to waste one year for preparing paperwork.

After that the confirmation process is very intransparent and slow and usually they are part of the fake-money system, that means they are only giving out loans (not stipends).

The main problem is also, that you cannot request funds for "exiting" projects or projects that already started.

I also checked the german KfW (Kreditanstalt fuer Wiederaufbau) and their programs are only loans that need to be paid out via a private bank. This is all crap.


Maybe you have a better link where you can actually get "Stipends" for new projects (but no loans)

i will sit down and draft the follow up emails this weekend so that they can be sent out next week.
Also, we have now an "Investors meeting" face 2 face, so discuss further details.


My personal opinion is, that we should not try to earn back the money with fees. If the fees are too high people would simply use MtGox or other sites. We only have a chance when we can develop something new and unique and for that we will have a face 2 face meeting quite soon

Ist schon richtig, bei Bitcoins KANN THEORETISCH Mt. Gox. wie eine Bank anfangen Sichtguthaben auszuweisen, für die die entsprechenden Coins garnicht (mehr) hinterlegt sind. Der Schwindel würde aber auffallen und man könnte MtGox wegen Betrug verklagen. Nicht so bei "normalen" Banken, wo dies normal ist.

Man könnte auch Anfangen und "Gutscheine auf Bitcoins" ausgeben. Und dann 100 mal soviele Gutscheine in Umlauf bringen, wie Bitcoins da sind.... Aber das wird nicht funktionieren, da bei Bitcoins eben in der Regel nicht "Banküberweisungen" getätigt werden, sondern die Coins von Person zu Person getauscht werden. Wenn ich im Vegemesta in Helsinki einen Burger kaufe, dann hab ich die Coins dazu auf meinem Handy und nicht bei MTGox. Und der Händler akzeptiert auch keine "Gutscheine" auf Bitcoins, sondern er will sehen, dass die Coins bei ihm angekommen sind, bevor er mir den Burger gibt. Ich meine den meisten Leuten mag das ja egal sein und das "Normale" System funktioniert ja auch, solange genügend Leute ihr geld nicht von der Bank abheben....

aber für mich ist das wirklich der ZENTRALE Unterschied.

Absolut richtig, die Bank fordert immer Sicherheiten und sie verleihen auch nicht das Geld "auf nichts". Das ist auch an sich nicht das Problem.

Das Problem ist, dass die Bank ein Privileg hat (das sonst KEINER hat) und ein VIELFACHES ausgeliehen wird von dem Geld was eigentlich da ist. Wenn ich einen Bitcoin von privat nach privat verleihe, dann muss ich ihn schliesslich ersteinmal haben. Ich kann eben gerade NICHT einen einzelnen Bitcoin haben und dann z.B. 5 oder 6 Bitcoins verleihen. (Oder wie im Falle des Bankensystems bei gerade mal 1% Mindestreserve eben bis zu 100 Bitcoins (!)).

Und Bitcoin ist eben ein "Wert" an sich. 1 Bitcoin ist ein Bitcoin so wie in g Gold ein g Gold ist. Keiner garantiert irgendeinen Marktwert in Euro und dieser kommt durch voellig andere Faktoren zusammen. Acuh das ist von Dir voellig richtig beschrieben.


Und ich denke es geht bei Bitcoins ja nicht darum das Bankensystem abzuschaffen oder den Euro durch Bitcoin zu ersetzen. Es ist einfach (meiner Meinung nach) eine faire Alternative zum aktuellen System und Bitcoins entstehen durch Mining und eben gerade nicht aus Schulden durch Mehrfachbeleihung. Deshalb der Titel "Bitcoin, ein Wert ohne Schulden" ;-)

Well, since the results from the questionnaire seem quite promising, i think we should go on with some rescue plan and reopen the site with highest security standards and new concepts.

We would/should come back with some "official" information about how to proceed quite soon.

Absolut richtig. Kredit und Zinsen sind absolut nicht das Problem. Und Bitcoins werden ja auch schon durchaus verliehen.

Anders aber ist die einseitige Priviligierung von bestimmten Institutionen (Banken), die dank "Sonderrechten" Kredite schoepfen auf der Basis einer 1%igen Mindestreserve. Dadurch, dass bei Bitcoin die Geldschoepfung NICHT durch eine Bank passiert, muss bei der Vergabe von Bitcoin Krediten der "Wert" zuerst "real" da sein und kann nicht anschliessend mehrfach verliehen werden. Das macht einen entscheidenden Unterschied!

(Das koennte man natuerlich anders machen, indem man "Gutscheine auf Bitcions" erfinden wuerde oder so, BISLANG wird das aber nicht so gemacht.)

Worauf ich hinauswollte (und sorry dass mirs nicht gelungen ist), ist gerade das EXTREM GESCHICKTE Zusammenspiel aus Staatsverschuldung, Mehrfachbeleihung auf der Basis einer Mindestreserve und dem daraus resultierenden Zins problematisch ist. Dies verursacht einfach die Probleme, die wir aktuell haben. Alle Elemente EINZELN sind kein Problem, auch Staatsverschuldung an sich nicht.

Hi,
so i also cooled down again after being extremly furious after hearing about this new hacker incident exactly on the day where our questionnaire was finished... But from what I have seen from the logs etc, it was really convincing and i do not have any doubts anymore, it was really just a bad conisciedence. Lets see what the further investigations would bring.

I also reconsidered my initial intentions to cancel all investment plans, i hope we can find a good way out of this mess

come on, this is all ridiculous. First of all, the whole thing started already on THURSDAY? this means the site was open even longer after the whole thing happened!

And anyway... why should someone steal "randomly" 620 coins and keep the rest in?!?!?, (while my share of frozen coins is 618)? The whole thing smells to heaven... Can you please think SHARPLY who had access to the required information to make such an "insider" Job work? Luckily i am in a "good" position in that sense that i never had access/information to any bitmarket site related stuff at all... If only 2 or 3 people had access / the information to these links it must be clear that it was one of them? Or think further...maybe you have your local computer compromised and the attack came from there by stealing your password stuff from there?

Dear all,
this bullshitting around and lack of intransparency is inacceptable for me! Earlier today I received the following email from the admin which i decided to share here now, since the admin ignored my ultimatum to inform everybody on this on his own initiative:

"Hello,

I wanted  to share a very bad news with you. Yesterday, in the middle of the night, someone hacked in to Bitmarket database and managed to modify his account. Then, he withdrew ~610 BTC from the site. He left about 100 BTC in the wallets.

Right now I'm investigating what happened. It seems that he managed to somehow find my administration console for the database, which wasn't under any gueassable name. This console was password protected (a very long, random password) but he still managed to overcome this somehow. I'm still investigating how this could happen. Right now I've removed this console entirely to prevent any further damage, but I'm devastated . I wrote a message to the email he registered with (chinabig01@gmail.com) literally begging him to return the stolen BTC. If he has any conscience, maybe he'll give it back. But at the moment we are 600 BTC short, and if this sees the light of day (ie. people want to withdraw more than 92 BTC that's currently in the wallets), we're totally screwed.

I know it's much to ask, but do you have any Bitcoins available right now to fill this gap temporarily? There is a small chance that the thief will give this back, but until then… I really don't know what to do now. I didn't have the luxury to screw up again, and when things started to go on the right track, this happens. All this makes me wanting to kill myself. My hands are shaking right now. I won't do this, because I have people to repay. I hope this turns out good… Sorry, I don't have any other idea right now, I just wanted to be 100% honest with you and inform you on this as soon as I saw what happened. "

I requested from him to close down the site immediately and inform everybody, but he refused to do so and also ignored my ultimatum for this. Now the site is at least closed so no one can make pay-ins anymore, but without any information, which is still inacceptable.

I dont even want to know what is behind this story, but fact is: the site is obviously insecure and everyone should be informed about incidents like this immediately! I am totally upset that i was asked for basically my whole planned investment capital to help out to "hide" the further loss of bitcoins! The idea that I would fill in "gaps" temporarily is just ridiculous.

If it is true that further coins were lost the site should close down immediately and even when i did not like the idea of liquidation earlier i do not see any other way out anymore.

Lets see if we would now get an "official" update on the situation!

im neuen Video habe ich mal Stripperinnen eingebaut ;-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIlqt5efwYI

ripple klingt interessant, werde mich da mal reinlesen.... vielen Dank

Thanks BrainGame, very good post i can support basically all you said.

The Coins are gone no matter which option someone choses, thats for sure. Also the "newly" invested money would by far not be enough to make any significant payouts.

But anyway, when we have a chance to implement a bigger peer2peer market also for other products than bitcoins that has already a quite big user basis and everything is separated from the old ownership so we can win the trust back, it might be possible to pay back funds in a slightly faster rate than 100.000 years, lets say 100 years...