I am referring to those people at the top of the heroin trade pyramid who decided to salvage an industry that the Taliban had eliminated.

If you are saying there are good and bad people in the heroin business, I agree.

Those who evidently salvaged their interests at the expense of Muslims, Zios and obedient Americans are not "good" heroin dealers though.

As a person who is both American and Jewish I am on the periphery of two of the groups who seem to have been maneuvered into taking the fall for 911.

It is unfortunate that there are still Americans willing to blindly defend the patriotic obedient types who allow this kind of thing, and there are still Jews and ethical Zios who likewise tolerate this kind of thing.

The Muslims have been pretty good about saying "Whoever did it, we are not part of them".

Every crime is an "inside job". There are people who have some access or authority that they use to do something.

The question with 911 is "who are the inside people, those who abused some access or authority?"

Was it the Muslim hijackers who abused their access to commercial flights?

Was it Zios / Neoscum who abused their access to buildings and perhaps even "access" to Muslim hijackers?

Was it U.S. Militards who abused their access to numerous things?

~~~

Or was it a bunch of scum sucking cancer fucks who had some influence on all of the above groups and carefully arranged for Afghanistan to resume production of a commodity that is largely controlled by the only people who have the ability to brainfuck each of the above groups into believing they are acting on some higher motive?

There is no way to show causation without identifying the characters involved but implying or "showing a likelihood of" causation depends on many factors which, in their entirety, do seem to suggest causation. Your specific example of one of the many is, as usual, horseshit though.

The Taliban are local hill people. They did not know where the U.S. was nor did they care. One day they hear the news that a 'guest' of theirs may have been involved in a crime in that faraway place "the United States". Their response was "Show us some evidence and if it is reasonable evidence we will deliver him". America's response to that offer was the invasion. In other words the invasion was going to happen no matter what the Taliban did.

You have to ask why there was such a priority to invade Afghanistan. Research the Taliban a bit. They are utterly harmless to other countries, including the U.S., even if they are a bit simple and untechnological. Do they kill adulterers? Sure. Don't commit adultery there, or don't get caught. Do they have the slightest interest in bombing any other country? They do not.

You don't know what the motive for the attacks was yet.

A person could speculate that the motive was to increase the sale of aspirin in Mexico. In that case the 911 attacks were poorly constructed and a complete failure.


A: Others getting caught.
B: In the United States "Psychological impact" is not a factor. It's like the "fluffy factor" with pillows. More fluffy? Less fluffy? Who cares. Hard to measure.
C: O.P.M. Other peoples' money. If the 911 organizers were having to buy their own explosives etc out of pocket it would have been a smaller affair.

It's nice to have an academic formula to solve this sort of thing but it must apply.

In any crime first the context. A multibillion dollar business that has always been the domain of militaries and intelligence agencies, more than any other industry, except weapons.

The day before 911 the Taliban had been on track to eliminate opium cultivation. Almost immediately after 911 cultivation started again. It soon surpassed even the record highs of the previous decade.

edit
Fine to say "we are all natives" or "we are all free" but in this context it takes away from practicalities.

A currency has more potential than a bumper sticker, if it is developed properly.

If you want to go down that avenue.

We now know that all of Yassir Arafat's communications were intercepted and all of his organized plans were known before they became acts. In other words it was all organized theater.

We now know that all of the "radical" left organizations that  created havoc in the 70s were thoroughly infiltrated, and in some cases led by our intelligence agencies who let the plans go through not to maintain the integrity of sources but for other reasons.

We know this type of horseshit continues up to the present day, a recent string of murders in Germany comes to mind, and we know that these morons are still trying to manage how these acts they lead are portrayed in the media. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/former-neo-nazi-informant-sheds-new-light-on-nsu-murders-a-955787.html

He means 'the clever people' of each religion.

The problem for Jews, as a religious group, is that instead of cleaning house they pile all their filth into a heap and don't spray it with perfume.

The Catholics use perfume.

The other Christians use perfume.

The Muslims just kind of look around and say "wasn't me".

But the Jews say "fuck off" and that doesn't fly.

No intelligent person would say that somehow killing thousands of innocent people was a "Jewish" or "Muslim" act, a lot of people say that but read the first three words.

~~~~~

The first thing to ask is whether the individuals behind 911 deliberately set it up so that these various groups, Muslims, Zios etc would be identified, or whether the various groups were exposed only by the brilliance of the general public.

With the Muslim hijackers of course the answer is obvious. They did not try to hide the fact that there were Muslims of a certain political enthusiasm involved. But a person should ask "is it a little too obvious"? "Is there a little too much evidence", for example the passports and similar papers that were in the hijackers pockets but mysteriously survived the crashes in NYC and PA even when the hijackers bodies did not.

With the Zios again, same question. There is quite a bit of evidence that Zios were involved. In fact there seems to be almost a little too much evidence.

With corrupt elements in the U.S. govt likewise.

A person would like to say "I am so smart, I see the evidence that this and that group was involved". But a person is looking at evidence which seems to be a little too obvious. That should make a person look for other variables, like the context.

911 occurred suddenly as the Taliban were set to announce that opium had been eradicated from their country. It was quickly followed by an invasion that brought opium back up to commercial levels again.

Are there Jews and Muslims involved in the opium trade? Sure.

Do crooked people in various countries use the opium trade as a tool to leverage political interests? Sure.

Do those people act on behalf of all of the people who share their country / religion / etc?

You are ascribing motives that make little sense.

Anything can happen, then you can look for a motive.

If one soldier fires one bullet across a border you can say his motive was to shoot the loudspeaker blaring propaganda, or to cancel one of his counterparts or whatever. One low level act with low level motives.

If 50,000 soldiers cross a frontier and lots of weapons are used then it isn't reasonable to ascribe low level motives like  "shooting a loudspeaker" or whatever.

There were several groups involved in 911 at a lower level, Saudi crazies, Zio crazies, Obedient Americans etc. It is not reasonable to say the ubermotive for 911, the motive of the ones who assembled those groups, was the same as any one of those groups. At the top level the motive is always idealism of some sort. Hitler was an idealist, Stalin was an idealist. Always idealists who see big pictures but not little ones end up leaving bodies unnecessarily. However they are clever enough, as individuals, that it is very hard to identify them so they can be cancelled.

The only way to solicit money successfully from others long term is with a gun.

~~~~~


If Mazacoin's natural economy were based on real primary commodities it would have a strong foundation. You are a smart gamain. But it has to be first amongst Natives, not amongst "people who support Mazacoin (from outside)".

Money and power always motivate people operating at the lowest level. The people who do the grunt work in any organized project are almost always motivated by some variation of those things.

But the people at the 'top' of anything like that, those who organize the grunts, are usually idealists.

They say
"We are going to make a better world but you have to break eggs to make omelettes". or something like that.

There is no large group, even a terrorist organization, that will survive long by saying "We want to cause harm and kill innocent people just for the fuck of it".

As Freud noted though, there are natural realities that trump objective ideals and "criminals" leave trails to the extent that their subjective ideals do not mesh with larger ideals that they are also aware of.

More people, including you two, need to watch the full video to understand how 911 really came about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTqYftNZ6js

Any crime has a) acts and b) motives. There are a) events, actions, and there are b) motives.

One, either one, is meaningless without the other.

Specifically with regard to 911, the evidence seems to be that there were
1) Muslims acting on radical motives "We will perform a good deed by blowing up some buildings"
2) Some Americans acting on authoritarian motives "We will do certain things for national security reasons, even though we don't see the full picture"
3) Some Zionists acting on nationalist motives "We will encourage our strategic alliances by helping our allies develop an interest in 'terrorism'"
4) Other groups with other motives etc.

The point is how do you have these unrelated groups "cooperating"? Of course there had to be some individuals with sufficient connections in each of the groups involved to get their cooperation.

911 did not happen in a vacuum. It supposedly was managed from a country run by the Taliban who were set to announce that opium production had been reduced to zero, just as 911 hit.

As for your "irrefutable hypothesis", I don't know what that is.

There is more than sufficient evidence that
1) The actions of the crime were not exactly as portrayed to the mass public.
2) The motives of the crime were not exactly as portrayed to the mass public.

The actions of the crime have been sufficiently questioned. A good summary is http://patriotsquestion911.com/

The motives have been largely ignored. The one possibility that seems most inclusive of the evidence, and which is not contradicted by anything, seems to be that the attacks were orchestrated around the issue of Afghanistan's opium production. It is no secret that very little heroin moves far without someone in D.C. or Moscow getting a few pesos.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/militarysmuggledheroin.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_drug_trafficking

The two most respected kinds of evidence are that which is "based" on the word of "authorities" and that which is "based" on the word of experts. A person normally assumes those two groups are the same but in this case it seems to not be so. At any rate there are numerous respected experts who would agree the visible evidence points to several groups.


----


ha ha

Again, the autopsy and the "sufficient" quote. Orwell is different because he hides the solution in a way anyone can find it. The danger is not from people who want more power, they have always had the latest weapons. The danger is from people who want more food. They have them now.

----


Who are "they"? Individuals who act as part of a group should be encouraged to take responsibility for their actions. It makes a great psychological drama but ultimately there are a lot of dead people and a lot of unused execution medicine

You may be confusing two different issues.

1) There have been a lot of 'terrorist' attacks in a lot of countries.
2) The 911 attacks stand out in that there are numerous pieces of evidence that appear absurd. In other words there is piece after piece that seems to draw 'skeptics' into questioning it. An example is the passport found on the sidewalk near the towers.
3) My question was whether it was possible that these might have been a deliberate part of some other motive. For example might someone have said "As part of this operation we need to leave a certain kind of trail, we need to leave evidence that points in several different directions and which will draw several conflicting groups into constructing competing theories". Was the passport dropped deliberately by someone after the fact? I am not saying that was the case, I was simply asking if the evidence points to that.
4) There is no question that psychological motives drive all sides of the investigation by anyone involved. The "official" investigators are largely motivated by a desire to get professional benefit, to further their job, to satisfy their professional roles etc. Others, in whatever way, will look for ways to get other benefits, either defensive or offensive.
5) The participation of individuals from several seemingly unrelated groups seems evident.
a) There seems to be solid evidence that Saudi individuals motivated by religious or political fervor were involved.
b) There seems to be solid evidence that Americans who were in positions of 'responsibility' were involved.
c) There seems to be solid evidence that Zionists acting on nationalist motives were involved. And others etc

~~~~~~~~

A person is reminded of George Orwell's story about two huge empires, cooperating with each other to create a phony ongoing conflict that 'manages' the population. Basically a group of misguided individuals who have mastered the autopsy and nothing else. They have enough knowledge of things to grab and hold power for a while, but history will sum them up as not having understood the 'religious' quote mentioned earlier, "sufficient ..." etc.

We are in an era in which power no longer rests with governments. They have been subdued by the fact that a group of people is no longer as dangerous as an individual. If a government, its representatives, does not like another government etc, there is a predictable escalation that occurs. At its worst you see a large war using the latest weapons within a specific 'theater of war'. But if an individual does not like some other entity, a group, a govt etc, predictability is gone but the weapons are similar. There are millions of people who are able to construct 'weapons of mass destruction', who have the power to fight a government at a military level.

By soliciting money as the basis for that campaign you are dooming it to failure. Most people will perceive "We want money to do xyz" rather than "We want to do xyz".

As a person who is entirely of European extraction, with no Native blood, I will represent the Europeans who are occupying the Americas. I hereby dissolve the U.S. government and cancel all treaties. As of today Natives are in charge of the lands they have been managing for thousands of years.

Freedomland voila.

If there are any powertripping goosestepping rodents with badges and guns who disobey they must be arrested, as they are violating the law.

While the new law is going into effect there may still be roving bands of gangsters adhering to their own old mob law. Do not try to correct them solo. Make a note of them and contact authorities.

That page made me think of the comments added to the Mazacoin website today. "Marketing" doesn't really work as well as practical stuff. The silver thing is artsy and cool but you can't smoke it so most people will pass it by.

Here is an idea. If someone who lives on or near a res out in that area, I am faraway, want to look for a local who might be interested in starting a tobacco business, I'll chip in a little to help the person get started. Emphasis on little because I'm not rich, but if a few people help someone there get started and they sell tobacco at a reasonable price they could do well.

It should be as raw as possible, no chemicals etc like American Spirit. Even undried leaves, in fact that would have a novelty aura that might attract people. e.g. "One pound of fresh undried, untreated tobacco leaf for $20us or the equivalent of $15 in mzc." American spirit is $15 for 1.41 ounces where I live so I would buy.

One of the interesting aspects of 911 is that there are so many legitimate indications of inaccuracy in the 'official' story, as well, of course, as red herrings added to discredit 'conspiracy theorists'.

A person could ask "is it possible for some group to make so many mistakes in such a short period of time"?

In other words, "is it possible the mistakes were deliberate"?

One constant in human actions is the tendency to justify misdeeds by framing them as benevolent acts. If a person has a murderous streak they do not say "I feel murderous, I think I'll commit violence", they say "Wow, the army / whatever / etc will let me protect my country and cancel evildoers from other countries. I think I'll do that."

The perfect response to this of course is the Christian saying "sufficient unto the world is the evil thereof".

But anyway, suppose that to some extent the stunning ineptness of the operators, the mind boggling incompetent stupidity in so many aspects of the crime, was deliberate, rather than simple incompetence. What would the motives be? Why would someone deliberately kill so many people in such a way that no clear fingerprint was left but rather numerous disparate fingerprints?

Anyone can start a tobacco business surely, but if there were an entirely Native tobacco company at the wholesale level, which operated entirely through Native government structures and accepted only Native currency it would get a lot of support. Their retailers would need to accept local currencies e.g. dollars but they too would prefer Native currency if their wholesaler only dealt in it.

Wise move.

Some of the people who disagree with you /

Ron Brookman is a licensed structural engineer in California. He received his master’s degree in structural engineering from University of California at Davis in 1986 and has practiced in the field ever since. His professional experience includes engineering commercial office buildings, industrial buildings, and manufacturing facilities.

Richard Gage, AIA, is a San Francisco Bay Area architect of 25 years, a member of the American Institute of Architects, and the founder and CEO of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth. Mr. Gage has worked on most types of building construction, including numerous fire-proofed, steel-framed buildings. Most recently, he worked on the construction documents for a $400M mixed-use urban project with 1.2 million square feet of retail, a parking structure, and 320,000 square feet of mid-rise office space.

Dan Barnum, FAIA, of Houston, Texas, holds a Bachelor of Architecture degree from Rice University. He has been practicing architecture for the past 40 years and has designed a variety of buildings, from houses to high-rise office buildings. Among his major projects are One Shell Plaza and Two Shell Plaza in downtown Houston, and Houston Lighting and Power, which is now the Houston Public Works office building. Barnum is a Fellow of the American Institute of Architects, the highest honor bestowed on its members by the AIA.

Robert McCoy received a Bachelor of Architecture degree from the University of California at Berkeley in 1963. He has been a licensed California architect since 1964. For the next 20 years, most of his experience was in multi-story, high-rise, steel-frame buildings, including the 34-story headquarters for Pacific Gas and Electric in San Francisco. McCoy also participated in the design of 575 Market Street, a 44-story building for Standard Oil's headquarters, and 100 Pine Street, a 34-story office building.

Dr. Niels Harrit, holds a master's degree and a Ph.D. in chemistry, and has been an associate professor of chemistry at the University of Copenhagen for almost 40 years. He has published close to 60 peer-reviewed papers in top journals. In April 2009, he coauthored the article, "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe," which documented the existence of nano-thermite in a number of dust samples taken from the World Trade Center.

Many others http://www.ae911truth.org/

A bit about this case was posted a while back and I'm still curious how he was convicted so easily and why nobody seems interested in reviewing the case. Below are some of the details and maybe more useful comments will come from summarizing it again. The following is the best information I have found but any of it should be questioned / verified by anyone interested.

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5 Burmese refugees shared an apartment in Salt Lake city, Utah, U.S. Four of the roommates are from one ethnic and religious group and the fifth, Esar Met, is from another, the Rohingya ethnic group. Rohingyas are called one of the most persecuted minorities in the world by the UNHCR.

The four who share the same background are openly hostile to Esar Met.

A neighbor child, Hser Ner Moo, who is of the same ethnic background as the four sometimes played with Esar Met, the Rohingya. Comments from the four other roommates suggest that they do not approve of this.

*Starred items are information that was either not presented to the jury or was presented in a grossly distorted way. The jury did not have access to the videotape of the confession, nor to much of the material in the police report, both of which are available now.
---

Day 1

Sometime in the late morning or early afternoon Esar Met goes to his uncle's for a visit that had been planned the previous day. At least one other person in the apartment complex is aware that he will be gone.

In the early afternoon the child tells her family that she is going out to play.

*At around 4 pm one of the four roommates returns early from work alone. The other three arrive over the next few hours.

When the child has not returned by the late afternoon her mother calls a social worker who contacts police.

---

Over the next day and a half police and the FBI will search the apartment complex at least three times thoroughly. There are several dozen apartments and someone answers the door eventually at every single apartment, except the apartment where the four roommates are. There was never a good explanation given of why they did not answer the door.

At roughly 10pm the day following the disappearance, i.e., roughly 30 hours after she disappeared, an F.B.I. agent telephones a Salt Lake city police officer and tells him the child's body had been found in the one apartment that nobody had searched. In the apartment with the body are the four non Rohingya roommates and a 5th person who the F.B.I. released after only a brief questioning. Who he was and why he was released were redacted. He is not mentioned in media reports as far as I know.

The body was found in the downstairs living quarters of the Rohingya roommate, in the shower area, covered with blood and with unusually violent injuries.

~graphic~
*After the initial processing of the crime scene some police were sent back apparently to look for an object that could have been used to "rape" the child. This is significant because it suggests the crime was not so much sexual as 'made to look sexual'. In other words whoever killed her not only did it with extreme violence, as someone might do to "show who is boss", but they also wanted to give the appearance of a rape when that had not actually occured.

Whatever object was used was never found and numerous other items from the crime scene disappeared inexplicably from the reports about the crime and were never investigated, nor presented to the jury. These "unknowns" including a large bloody plastic bag found near the body, the fact that the linens downstairs were gone etc.

*As the apartment was being examined a crime scene tech found what appeared to be fresh blood stains upstairs, in the living space of the four roommates. Although this was eventually disclosed its relevancy was ignored since the tech discarded the evidence.

The same crime scene tech said that he found four drops of blood in a linear pattern on the back of Met's jacket. There are several problems with this, including the fact that he was not able to immediately identify them as blood, nor did anybody else who saw the jacket before him even note them. In other words the stains were either older dried blood or they did not exist.

The chld's body showed signs of so many severe injuries that the medical experts said she would have been dead shortly after the attack. In other words the killer was physically present within an hour of when she died.

~graphic~
However the first medical person to examine the body said the legs were so stiff they could not be bent. This was 30 or so hours after Esar Met was known to have been gone. The time that rigor mortis takes to pass varies by a number of factors. Small children and very old people pass more quickly through rigor. Someone who is struggling before death passes through rigor more quickly.

Cold temperature can slow the progression of rigor mortis, and the basement was described by everyone, including the roommates, as "cold and dark". But everyone in the apartment was a tropical Asian used to very hot climate. Further, Met owned only one jacket, a very lightweight denim jacket that can be seen in the video. In other words it is extremely likely the basement temperature was at least 50F or 60F.

"According to the ME investigator, Hser Ner Moo died sometime between 5pm on the day she disappeared and 1130am the next morning". This by itself, with no other evidence considered, would seem to exclude Met as a likely suspect. He was almost certainly gone at least several hours and probably much more when the death occurred.

The time of death has significant implications. Salt Lake city has had quite a few high profile child sex abuse and murder cases. One journalist refered to it as almost an annual event in that city. When Hser Ner Moo was abducted the governor and other local personalities quickly put pressure on authorities to solve the case quickly. When they solved it "instantly", without having even done a real investigation, the political pressures were gone.

---

When the FBI had gathered up the five people in the apartment they briefly interrogated them and then went to look for Esar Met. They found him at his family's house and arrested him with a fair amount of excessive drama, including announcing to the press that he had tried to flee, which the police later admitted was not true.

Met was interrogated and a video was made of the interrogation.

*Anybody can watch the video and see that there are numerous problems with the "confession", including that Met is not able to accurately describe a single aspect of the crime until the F.B.I. agent tells him. The confession is so ridiculous it is almost funny. The lawyers on both sides of the case filed to suppress the video so it woud not be available for the jury to view.

---

Under the fingernails of the deceased child was microscopic skin cell DNA from a number of people. Instead of isolating all the samples, forensic experts were told to only look for certain specific people's DNA. A small child will have the DNA from numerous people under their fingernails, including friends they play sports with, family and anyone else they touch with their fingers. Because Esar Met had played with the child before the crime it is likely there was some of his microscopic skin DNA under her fingernails before the crime. It follows that if his DNA was there before the  crime it was also there after the crime, along with the DNA of others. In other words this "DNA evidence does not indicate guilt or innocence. It is completely meaningless and not "DNA proof of guilt" as the prosecution suggested.

There was one DNA sample taken from the crime scene that contained the blood of the victim along with the blood of an unknown male who was not any of the people in the apartment.

---

After 6 years of investigating the case, not only were investigators not able to find any additional evidence, but it seems that some of the original evidence, perhaps exculpatory, may have disappeared.