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281  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 09:35:15 PM
Or what if he's a juggler that decides to practice knife juggling in your life raft. You can't coerce him to stop, right?

Right.

Once you allow that someones fear of risky behavior permits coercion then any form of tyranny can be justified. There's no stopping point. If teenage males are more likely to commit crimes than any other demographic, you can argue that we should lock them up until they are adults.

Unless of course, when you said "your life raft" you meant that I actually own it. In which case, I can set any rules I want because it's my life raft.

Why wouldn't there be a stopping point? Why does everything have to be all or nothing?

If you happen to own the raft you're free to endanger everybody's life for your own amusement? Even if we ended up there unwilling?
282  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Do I deserve to die? on: July 11, 2011, 09:25:50 PM
Die? None of the above.
Healthcare? All of the above.
283  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 09:22:08 PM
Well, you asked for a definition, and there it is. I could go into further detail but that would be simply defining the NAP, which has been done to death elsewhere.

As to your question about the juggler, You didn't have to get on that lifeboat. Back at the ship, there were plenty others. For that matter, you didn't have to get on the ship in the first place. You could have stayed home.

So it's wrong because I say so? Is that your definition? Then you shouldn't have a problem with our current society, because what's being done to you is "right because we said so".

So I'm supposed to be able to predict the future to avoid having people put me in unnecessary risk? That guy is forcing me to take a risk I'm not willing to take, but that isn't a violation of the NAP, or is it?
284  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 09:13:45 PM


Violates the NAP? Ok then, here's your answer to why murder is wrong: "Murder is wrong because it says so in the bible. ". It's a non-answer too.


This is why I asked you to define why murder is wrong, first. So that I could put it into terms you would accept.
I've never claimed to be able to define why murder is wrong. Haven't thought enough about it. It's an intuitive thing for me. I might get back to you though. But claiming that something is right because it follows rules that you yourself defined clearly isn't a good answer.
285  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 09:07:58 PM
Now, please explain to me why coercion is always wrong. Why can't I force someone to stop putting my life at risk?

Coercion is always wrong because if violates the non-aggression principle.

I should note here that 'putting your life at risk' is not the same thing as 'threatening your life'

The juggler is putting your life at risk, but if he is skilled enough will not kill you, or him.

The man with the ax is threatening your life.

Violates the NAP? Ok then, here's your answer to why murder is wrong: "Murder is wrong because it says so in the bible. ". It's a non-answer too.

Agreed, he's putting my life at risk. He might be willing to take that risk, but why should I have to?
286  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 08:54:40 PM
I would like an answer to my question if you don't mind. 

You mean you want me to make an argument for why murder is bad so that you can attack my murder argument while ignoring the defense of your own claim from many pages ago?  No thanks.

If either one of you will give me a moral framework within which to work, I will gladly explain to you why coercion is wrong. I will not attack any argument you make because I agree, murder is wrong. I would like to see why you think so, however.

I agree that coercion is wrong most of the time. But not all of the time. Which I think my example proves. Somewhere there's a balance between what you should coerce people to do or don't do, and what you shouldn't. I can't define that line, and it does change, but I believe it's there.

Now, please explain to me why coercion is always wrong. Why can't I force someone to stop putting my life at risk?
287  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 08:41:25 PM
Know how I know you're 12 years old?
I've told you once, I don't want to have to tell you again, troll elsewhere.

Now, if you're willing to have an intellectual discussion, please justify why murder is wrong so that I can properly frame my response as to why coercion is wrong.

I would like an answer to my question if you don't mind. 
288  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 08:31:58 PM
Then you're better off swimming.

Still waiting on your argument as to why murder is wrong. You said before you could prove it. Time to do so.

Really? I can endanger everyone and you won't do anything to prevent it until you're royally screwed? Please justify how you think this is right.
289  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 08:06:33 PM
"I have an Ax (or knife) and want to make a hole in the boat" is a pretty clear statement of intent. Acting on that intent (moving the ax or knife toward the hull) is more than enough to warrant 'Clear and present danger'.

Still waiting on your arguments as to why Murder is wrong.

What if there is no statement of intent? Or what if he's a juggler that decides to practice knife juggling in your life raft. You can't coerce him to stop, right?
290  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 07:56:26 PM
Voluntary solution. Ever hear the phrase 'Two wrongs don't make a right'?

Yes, and I've also heard that "three lefts do".

I imagine the following scenario.
A number of people are sitting in a boat in shark infested waters. One of them have an axe.
Axe-man: I want to make a hole in the boat
Passengers: Don't, we'll die.
Axe-man: Well, you can't initiate force against me and coerce me to do what you want. I want to make a hole. After the damage is done you can sue me if you like.
 Roll Eyes

Damaging the boat would be the actual 'initiation' of force, thus, pushing the axe-man off the boat would be self defense. You can do it as soon as he starts his swing.

LOL


And what if he's got a gun?  Do I use my Jedi reflexes to catch the bullet as soon as he fires it?
Or a life raft and a knife. Punctuating it is a rather easy and quick thing to do.
291  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 07:53:44 PM
Damaging the boat would be the actual 'initiation' of force, thus, pushing the axe-man off the boat would be self defense. You can do it as soon as he starts his swing.
Why? Don't you have to prove damage before you can act on it? How do you know he won't stop just before impact?
292  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 07:42:49 PM
Voluntary solution. Ever hear the phrase 'Two wrongs don't make a right'?

Yes, and I've also heard that "three lefts do".

I imagine the following scenario.
A number of people are sitting in a boat in shark infested waters. One of them have an axe.
Axe-man: I want to make a hole in the boat
Passengers: Don't, we'll die.
Axe-man: Well, you can't initiate force against me and coerce me to do what you want. I want to make a hole. After the damage is done you can sue me if you like.
 Roll Eyes
293  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 07:35:12 PM
Nothing about my views have changed. It's rather dishonest to try to frame the discussion as if they have. I've never been interested in achieving your ideal society, only the libertarian ideal society.

I won't compromise libertarianism. Your rhetoric fails.

Then you will never have anything that even resembles libertarianism. Shame. Everything in libertarianism isn't completely bonkers, but it seems that the followers refuse to live in the real world.

Want to know my ideal society? It's a society where we all try to get along and were everyone realizes that you can't always get everything your way, and that you have to compromise to find a way that is acceptable to all.
It's not going to happen either, but I can dream.
294  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 11, 2011, 07:25:34 PM
In order to enforce environmental regulation, you will need to use coercion. This is in violation of my principles, and therefore wrong. If humankind cannot produce a voluntary solution to the environmental issues, then the end result (The earth becoming uninhabitable to people, and so, no more people) is only just.

So because your principles dictate that nobody can be coerced a few people are free to fuck up everything for everybody else. How is that just?
295  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 10, 2011, 06:59:25 PM
Which is what? I'm curious.
Have a look at the link. The answer's in there.
296  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 10, 2011, 06:58:43 PM
The goal is to make a system based on keeping your hands off of other people and their property unless you have their permission i.e. a system compatible with libertarianism. If that's how you define "better" then we agree.

My point is that it works. It's not perfect but it's a solution and one that's compatible with keeping your hands to yourself.

So you're willing to compromise now. "It's not perfect but it works" is fine when it comes to a libertarian society, but abhorrent when it comes to our current society. As long as it's based on your ideals it doesn't have to be perfect, but if it's not then it should be discarded.
I shouldn't bother you too much about it though, realizing that you have to make compromises is a good first step.
297  Other / Politics & Society / Re: "You've got two, he's got none, give him one!" - Redistribution of Health on: July 10, 2011, 12:08:02 AM
And the sustainable price is much higher if you're the only one. It's even higher if people aren't forced to pay that cost themselves (insurance). It's even higher if that insurance is state subsidized. So, if you're for robbing the poor to give to the rich, keep arguing that point.
But you're not the only one. There are many other companies out there who compete with you. They have to research their own drug, but they can compete if they want. They even get a monopoly on their own substance. If they charge more than their competitors they have to prove additional value. And when the research cost has been covered they can sell just above production cost, to keep competition out.

I think we can agree on one thing though. US health system sucks. Virtually every country in Europe have lower drug costs than the US, more accessible health care and lower cost for the state. You need to fix it. Have you tried single payer system? Works in Europe.
 
298  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 09, 2011, 11:56:42 PM
Millions of people, myself included, have used the system and it satisfied their requirements. It's no surprise that coercive governments are willing to abandon a working system for something better regardless of its coercive nature. The point is, there is a solution and instead of just admitting it, you want to claim it's "not good enough" and "unpopular". That's called moving goalposts.
I thought the goal was to create something better? A mule is a solution to a transportation problem, but I think most people would prefer a car. Same thing here, there is a solution that does "work", but most people would want something better. And they already have it.

And "millions of people have used it"? Does numbers matter now? If so, then billions of people have used the other system. What's your point?
299  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Maximum role of Government? on: July 09, 2011, 08:13:16 PM
I got that. I just think that solution is worse than the one adopted by most of the industrialized world.

You're entitled to your opinion (which is all it is) but just don't pretend there isn't a working solution already implemented.
If that solution is a good one, how come some US states have switched away from it? So if your definition of "working" is "limping along" then yes, there is a "working" system already implemented.
300  Other / Politics & Society / Re: "You've got two, he's got none, give him one!" - Redistribution of Health on: July 09, 2011, 08:09:55 PM
No, the good prices and good service only come after the monopoly ends. "charge what the market will bear" only applies when there is a market. if you're the only one, you can charge whatever you want.

Clearly bullshit. A new drug needs to be marketed and sold. If you overcharge people won't buy. There's nobody out there forcing you to buy. Just say no. When enough people say no to a price it will drop until enough say yes. Simple as that. I thought you understood how the market works.
You don't think there's a market for a better cancer drug, or vaccine, or antibiotics? You sell on that market and you charge what it will bear.
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