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261  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Future of Money: Bitcoin and autonomous agents on: September 29, 2013, 08:40:39 PM
IMO the basic building blocks of TradeNet are

  • Digital identity.  My proposal, "SIN", is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1 (alas, this is spec is a jumble, and difficult to read)
  • Decentralized market software: anyone should be able to create their own market, or join another market.  This software permits multiple market types to be created or managed: classified ads, auctions, kickstarter-like funding, commodity exchange/short/option/future and more.  This must be open source, available for all.  Open-Transactions "could have been" this, but I am not happy with its format specifications, quality of code and other features and factors.  OT would also need to be upgraded to support SINs.
  • Decentralized messaging: some method for humans and agents to communicate with one another.  BitMessage is a nice attempt, but riddled through design and implementation problems today.  Maybe B.M. will fill this role, maybe something else will arise, time will tell.

Digital identity and reputation ties everything together.  A human or agent may be participate in a market by identifying themselves, and exchanging digitally secure messages.

Can you narrow this down to something minimal? A very basic prototype that would fulfill at least the base functions. Lets say you had to sit in a room for a month and build something that works. How would you go about it? 

Well, for identity (SIN), the basics needed to generate a new SIN, and verify something signed with an ECDSA key, already exist in https://github.com/gasteve/node-libcoin   I have been committing code there (SIN.js, SINKey.js) and more is coming soon, including test vectors.

A SIN is so close to a bitcoin address that much of the bitcoin verify/sign infrastructure may be easily reused.

For markets, the goal is that users -- humans or agents -- may (1) discover markets that already exist or (2) create a new market and advertise its existence.  Once a market is active, users must be able (3) advertise goods for sale, (4) view advertised goods, and (5) offer to purchase goods.

So, answering "how would you go about it?" for TradeNet, creating a platform where agents could talk to each other,

An off-the-cuff, five-minute, you-could-do-better, something-that-works design might then be:
A) Clone the low-level P2P bitcoin network protocol, and create a flood-fill, address-gossip network.  Mostly done, here: https://github.com/jgarzik/smartcoin
B) Change protocol buffer definition at https://github.com/jgarzik/smartcoin/blob/master/codec.proto to include obvious messages derived from paragraphs above:  "create-market", "get-market-info", "advertise-market"

This accomplishes the goal of #1 and #2, above.  Humans and agents then choose a market they need, and connect directly to that market.

C) Create protocol, client and server, with messages:  "advertise-item", "list-advertised-items", "item-info", "item-offer"
D) To sell something, an agent logs onto the P2P network, chooses a market ("cars in Austin, Texas") or creates one, and advertises their good for sale.
E) To buy something, an agent logs onto the P2P network, chooses a market ("cars in Austin, Texas"), and searches that market for desired items.  Purchase information (bitcoin payment address, payment protocol URL, ...) is obtained, and bitcoin payment process begins.

All messages are digitally signed with your SIN (identity).

Assuming that all agents conform to the same protocol when naming markets and items, one may easily see how agents may locate one another, and participate in open markets.

That would be my minimal get-it-working decentralized TradeNet.  Possibly rather than P2P, the cjdns protocol should be considered.


Answering "how would you go about it?" for a StorJ-like agent itself...  it's just a freaking HUGE problem that involves a lot of work, quickly getting into the weeds.

F) Create a daemon with a bitcoin wallet, that may understand digitally signed messages sent to it.
G) Create the file download module described in StorJ.
(so far, it just looks like a basic bitcoin web service)
H) Create a proxy module, whereby you send work A->B->C and return results C->B->A, and verify that the results match those locally generated, from local data storage.
I) If local site is profitable, search on TradeNet for required OS/mem/cpu/storage/bandwidth/API requirements, and purchase service
J) Or advertise on TradeNet for someone to create an API etc...

Past "H" you start getting incredibly complex, and an "it just works" implementation quickly becomes a herculean task you must break up into much smaller pieces.  For example, step "I" might require creating a business that resells AWS/Rackspace cloud services for bitcoins, complete with the API necessary for an agent to load itself onto a VPS.

Remember, "load itself onto another VPS" is quite complex, by itself.  You must verify that the OS environment matches the requirements for your agent:  Does it need a compiler?  Does it require a specific Linux version, or will OSX/Windows work also?  What versions of libraries are needed for the agent to successfully run?  Once the basic environment is verified as "suitable for agent life," you have to write all the code that is involved in basic system administration.  You must set up OS firewall, root passwords, SSH keys, and many other installation details besides that of copying the agent software itself.
 
Therefore, my general advice is:  pick a small part of this problem, work on that, complete it and test it, and then pick another small piece of the puzzle.  Iterate and repeat.  Eventually an agent will emerge!


Quote
As far as making a StorJ like system everything seems pretty straight forward, except the actually hosting part. I can't really find a nice "cloud service" with nice APIs that takes Bitcoin listed in the Trade wiki. Instances need to be able to launch new nodes, preferable without human help.

RE APIs:  in theory, an agent would hire a human to build an API, where none exists today.  An API is always possible, even if it is an ugly screen-scraping unofficial API.

Or, someone can build a business by reselling Amazon Web Services or Rackspace Cloud API via bitcoin payments.  5% markup, just have to filter out service abusers to make sure you don't get cut off.
Yes, you can do this but you run into twoone major hurdles.
1) Cost. Even a small node is going to run you $44 a month. Ran the per GB numbers again, and actually that might just work. Thanks for that.

"5%" was a pulled-out-of-my-ass number.

I am certain there is some price at which this is a profitable business plan.  (whether customers appear at that price is another question...)  It is the standard business problem.

Just calculate the cost to do this, including possible support costs (your time is valuable), and add 10%.

Quote
2) Filtering out services abusers is going to be pretty hard. Even for services like Paypal the abuse rate is pretty high for VPS hosts. This is why my main hosting provider, Digital Ocean, would not accept Bitcoin. They feared that the abuse rate would be too high. Maybe someone who owns a Bitcoin host can chime in? If Amazon decides that there is abuse within the account they might just shut it down, so you might have to do some leg work to actually let them know you are only reselling their services, and that abuse requests should dealt with on a case by case.

It is not as difficult as you might think.

Remember, SINs are digital identities that build reputation.  You may whitelist SINs that previously were good customers, or blacklist SINs that are abusers.

Further, there is time cost for criminals and abusers, and this plays in your favor:  a simple 24-hour delay after setting up a new account for an unknown user can do wonders.  Or a simple phone call + 24 hour wait.  Most abusers want to strike immediately, then disappear.  Normal, good customers do not have this pattern necessarily.
262  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Bitcoin EU Convention 2013 (Amsterdam, Netherlands September 26th~28th) on: September 29, 2013, 04:10:49 PM
As I mentioned at the after-conf party last night:

Somebody needs to pick a location for Amsterdam's "Satoshi Square."

The Dutch are famous for finance... it is Just Not Right for there to not be a Satoshi Square anywhere.

Are there any outdoor locations close to Centraal, with wifi?

263  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Future of Money: Bitcoin and autonomous agents on: September 29, 2013, 02:52:06 PM
IMO the basic building blocks of TradeNet are

  • Digital identity.  My proposal, "SIN", is https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Identity_protocol_v1 (alas, this is spec is a jumble, and difficult to read)
  • Decentralized market software: anyone should be able to create their own market, or join another market.  This software permits multiple market types to be created or managed: classified ads, auctions, kickstarter-like funding, commodity exchange/short/option/future and more.  This must be open source, available for all.  Open-Transactions "could have been" this, but I am not happy with its format specifications, quality of code and other features and factors.  OT would also need to be upgraded to support SINs.
  • Decentralized messaging: some method for humans and agents to communicate with one another.  BitMessage is a nice attempt, but riddled through design and implementation problems today.  Maybe B.M. will fill this role, maybe something else will arise, time will tell.

Digital identity and reputation ties everything together.  A human or agent may be participate in a market by identifying themselves, and exchanging digitally secure messages.
264  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Future of Money: Bitcoin and autonomous agents on: September 29, 2013, 02:49:43 PM
As far as making a StorJ like system everything seems pretty straight forward, except the actually hosting part. I can't really find a nice "cloud service" with nice APIs that takes Bitcoin listed in the Trade wiki. Instances need to be able to launch new nodes, preferable without human help.

RE APIs:  in theory, an agent would hire a human to build an API, where none exists today.  An API is always possible, even if it is an ugly screen-scraping unofficial API.

Or, someone can build a business by reselling Amazon Web Services or Rackspace Cloud API via bitcoin payments.  5% markup, just have to filter out service abusers to make sure you don't get cut off.

265  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Bitcoin EU Convention 2013 (Amsterdam, Netherlands September 26th~28th) on: September 29, 2013, 11:21:17 AM
Heading out to National Maritime Museum, near Amsterdam Centraal.

Will look for a cafe for lunch, as close to the museum as possible.  Will sit outside, if people want to meet up.

266  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [VIDEO] Future of Money: Bitcoin and autonomous agents on: September 29, 2013, 09:50:31 AM
Mike is definitely a good speaker.  It helps that he (and others like me) have been thinking about this stuff for years.

Even today, bitcoin is only in its infancy.  The bitcoin base layer -- the currency itself -- had to exist and work before other things like escrow, smart property, smart contracts, or autonomous agents could be built on top.

267  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Bitcoin EU Convention 2013 (Amsterdam, Netherlands September 26th~28th) on: September 28, 2013, 10:17:51 PM
Well to be clear, I want to go in the museum, not just near it ;p
268  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / [VIDEO] Future of Money: Bitcoin and autonomous agents on: September 28, 2013, 10:03:48 PM
Mike Hearn talks about some future possibilities that bitcoin enables:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu4PAMFPo5Y
and associated reddit link, http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1nbcsj/mike_hearn_bitcoin_developer_turing_festival_2013/

Related links:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=53855.0
http://garzikrants.blogspot.com/2013/01/storj-and-bitcoin-autonomous-agents.html
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Agents
http://bitcoinmagazine.com/7050/bootstrapping-a-decentralized-autonomous-corporation-part-i/  (and parts II and III)


269  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Bitcoin EU Convention 2013 (Amsterdam, Netherlands September 26th~28th) on: September 28, 2013, 08:53:51 PM
I will be around tomorrow if you want to hang out, eat lunch or do the tourist thing.

Sounds good.

RE tourist:  I do want to see the waterfront near the National Maritime Museum.  Dutch East India Company made a pretty big impact on the world.

270  Bitcoin / Meetups / Re: Bitcoin EU Convention 2013 (Amsterdam, Netherlands September 26th~28th) on: September 28, 2013, 04:53:18 PM
Will anybody be around tomorrow, or Monday?  I'm flying out Monday afternoon.

YT will be turning in early tonight and miss the party.
271  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: fair coin toss with no extortion and no need to trust a third party on: September 27, 2013, 05:57:18 PM
There is the current proposal for the mempool to be in the model of a very large block.  I forget what number we bandied about on IRC -- perhaps (144 * 2 * 1MB) or (144*7*1MB).

For the sake of example, consider a mempool that models a 288MB block, representing anything that miners seem likely to confirm in the next 144*2 blocks. 

This would permit the relay of transactions with lock times in the near future, as that would fit within the [proposed] existing mempool logic.

It does not enable the feature years in the future, but it does enable some.



272  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Bitcoin Binary Data Protocol, for mining, monitorblocks, etc. on: September 27, 2013, 11:41:41 AM
Yes, it can work for ASICs just fine.

stratum is just another mining protocol.  You may modify the protocol to support stratum-like work, yes.

273  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 26, 2013, 11:24:06 PM
Are there (or can there be) additional trusted parties outside a single physical location?  (rhetorical question, no need to answer publicly)

Bitcoin supports M-of-N transactions, for example, where two-of-three signatures could be required to unlock cold storage.

There are other variations on this idea with Shamir's Secret Sharing.  Decentralize the risk, eliminate "single points of failure" (or "key man risk").



274  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 26, 2013, 09:55:49 PM
Thoughts?  How much notice do people need?  And where's a good place to put such annoucements?

(1) "News" tab on just-dice.com, which should give some indication of the number of unread news items.
(2) investor thread on bitcointalk.org -- perhaps a moderated announcements thread

A community volunteer could even handle #2.

275  Economy / Securities / Re: [POLL] Just-Dice INVESTORS: Do you agree with lowering the max bet? on: September 25, 2013, 11:38:48 PM

So, does this mean that decreasing the max bet below the optimal value increases our aggregate exposure to a counter-party failure but does nothing to improve total profits?


affirmative

Correct.

276  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [PROPOSAL FOR PEER REVIEW] Setting up an oracle on Amazon Cloud. on: September 25, 2013, 10:25:25 PM
How is the snapshot ID determined? If it's just literally taking hashes of data on disk, wouldn't it vary with account name or something?

Snapshot ID is not hash based, but it is unique to all AWS customers.

Customer A may use a snapshot from Customer B, etc.  (assuming permissions allow that)

277  Economy / Securities / Re: [POLL] Just-Dice INVESTORS: Do you agree with lowering the max bet? on: September 25, 2013, 10:23:24 PM
From the other side, you have a mob of whiners or angry "investors" who treat JD as a bank, and these guys are obviously ready to spread FUD about JD and Dooglus if they see their investment shrink by %25 in a few days due to variance. Some of this "investors" are ready to crap their pants by disinvesting probably because they do not understand in what they were investing in the first place, and this could create a "bank run" effect if the whale has another lucky strike.

And then you have investors who thought JD was a, quote unquote, "long term stable investment"

278  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 25, 2013, 10:20:02 PM
I invested in just-dice for a long term stable investment - based on e.g. 5000 BTC wagered a day, 50 profit a day.  For me, I would rather have a load of smaller bets slowly meeting the 1% expected profit rather than a load of variance.

A startup casino running on a startup currency does not match with realistic expectations of a long term stable investment.

279  Economy / Securities / Re: [POLL] Just-Dice INVESTORS: Do you agree with lowering the max bet? on: September 25, 2013, 09:15:33 PM
+1  
Setting your own risk % is the solution to this madness.

Indeed.  Let investors (the market) decide.  It is their money being risked.

280  Bitcoin / Project Development / Re: [PROPOSAL FOR PEER REVIEW] Setting up an oracle on Amazon Cloud. on: September 25, 2013, 09:14:21 PM
Are there any weaknesses which I might have overlooked?

All weaknesses that are fundamental to virtual machines, versus dedicated servers.

Though Amazon is not on this list AFAIK, other VM providers have been hacked at the cloud management layer, effectively giving anyone 100% root and "physical" access.
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