https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=86243.msg949219#msg949219The real problem here is, as has already been at least partially mentioned:
1. The lack of transparency in the process.
2. The lack of communication.
3. The lies and false promises made by MTGox Support Staff with regards to AML/KYC.
4. Delay after delay, ostensibly under the guise of AML.
5. The just plain ludicrous decisions (Goat as an example). Perhaps transparency would clear these up.
6. The fact that most decisions made by MTGox seem completely arbitrary, and nothing... NOTHING pisses off customers more than arbitrary decision making. When your actions are not predictable in a given situation, you are wrong. Period.
So while this post is nice and all, I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish other than to distract from the real issues surrounding MTGox. My situation, that has been on going since April, is still unresolved. I am not the only one in this situation and there are plenty of others in similar situations.
Again, this does not seem to be an AML issue, it seems to be an insolvency issue. MTGox is unable to fund even moderate sized fiat conversions, which leads many of us to believe you guys are basically bankrupt and a disaster waiting to happen. The fact that no one has publicly denied this (not that we'd believe you at this point anyway, given MTGox track record of lies and falsehoods) certainly does not bolster confidence in MTGox at all.
Maybe this is the wrong thread to bring any of this up, but I don't want people to be distracted by this kind of thread from the real issue of MTGox being unable to meet their obligations to even moderate sized customers, especially when you are trying to gain new customers who will end up completely screwed when the Gox house of cards comes crashing down. Amazing what a year does to a man.
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It seems like BFL said "screw it" and are just going to ship Jalapenos in SC Single cases for every order. All images for a Jalapeno through the Single have been changed to look like a Single now: https://products.butterflylabs.com/What i don't get, is the pictures for the jalapeno appear to actually be a case photographed from different angles, but the little single and single are still images flipped in photoshop MS paint. |
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Lets break this down real quick:
1. You want to hedge your bet.
2. You are absolutely positive BFL won't ship. Ergo, a bet against BFL is a sure thing, according to your claim.
3. You are guaranteed a win of 500 BTC (or whatever amount you care to wager)
4. You don't want to bet because it's the "opposite" of hedging.
Let's break THIS down a little bit 1. you consider orders with your own company a bet 2. you consider a 10% hedge against a 100% order a sure thing 3. again, you're willing to cheat and scam your way to the winning side of a bet 4. you're really bad at math. So you just tell me how many units you consider legit to satisfy the claim of shipped there champ, we'll go with that. How about we start with the orders so far which have been bought and paid for in full. That shouldn't be too hard, a company shipping orders that were paid for months ago, should it? Legally an order has to be refunded or shipped within 30 days of full payment, so we can exclude any orders placed since march 20th, so only the orders placed between june 2012, and march 20, 2013. I'll put 350 BTC in escrow up against that, that you won't ship all orders placed within that time period before june 1st, 2013. What do you say? Yep, I nailed it. Your claim: BFL won't ship any product. Your bet: BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st. Which is it Franky? Will BFL ship a product or not? Your claim is that BFL won't ship a product, you are unwilling to bet on that, but you ARE willing to bet that BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st, 2013. Why would you need to put such ridiculous constraints on a bet when you believe BFL won't even ship a single product? Oh... maybe it's because you're a lying piece of shit? Yeah, thought so... I'm the lying piece of shit? Point out where i said BFL won't ship any product. I could refute other parts of this post, but the entirety of it is based on the claim that i said "BFL won't ship any product." Ok you tool, here you go: It's obvious with recent propaganda videos and lack of communication that the entire scheme is ready to collapse, In the interests of absolute transparency. I do not own any potion of butterfly labs I do have orders placed through butterfly labs. I do not believe my orders will be fulfilled. You believe you'll make your profit from BFL shipping a functional product, i don't believe that is a possiblity. This thread is my hedge(albeit in a less scumbag way) against butterfly labs's ponzi scheme, an obvious scam. but i believe for most it will provide something from nothing The list goes on. You are a LYING. PIECE. OF. SHIT. Put up or shut up, dirt bag. But you won't... because you're a piece of shit. What's even more pathetic is that you STILL maintain an order with a company you CLAIM is a scam. The very definition of idiot, yet again. Ok, i was wrong, now address the rest of the post. Also, accept the bet. 350 BTC, 4200 units shipped by june 1st. It's a reasonable goal considering you are within a week of shipping, and can produce 300 units per day. |
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Yeah, thanks for that, it's not like i wanted to win a 350 BTC bet or anything.
yea, I'll bet you 500 btc inaba wouldn't have paid anyway. I'll take that bet! (and then back out of it later and disappear for a few months and then realize how stupid a joke it was and then pay it later anyway) Edit: Aaaaand we've come full circle. And i could hedge against the Matthew N. Wright bet by printing my wallet out and torching it. I don't think satoshi dice is generous enough for you to reneg again. Hindsight is 20/20...If i hadn't .... It was a long series of bad decisions ... I do feel a little for those forced to ....
So you're allowed to learn from mistakes made in haste and make a profit off of others, but if I make one, lose everything, and pay out the ass in addition to losing everything I had, I'm a scammer for life in your book? You're a peculiar one, that's for sure. Time hasn't yet shown if i'm allowed, my message box is still eerily quiet. I can't say for certain if you're a scammer for life, but i'm certainly not taking your bet  . |
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That's what all con artist do, make shit look slick
Well, it's also what artists do, so that's not in itself any kind of indicator. But I admit that when they were actually producing and shipping (belated) FPGAs that it was easy to get caught up in the excitement. I had enough sense to refund my single back then though, because waiting 4 months for a mining device of any kind is retarded, even now with ASICs. The best investment so far in bitcoin has been holding bitcoin itself afterall. Look at sony, they haven't even shown a picture of the PS4, and i've already got a pre-order on it. I have no doubt they'll deliver.
I bet they'd get more if there's a PS4 app for mining! Hindsight is 20/20. If i hadn't paid 200 bitcoins for my first singles, i wouldn't be afraid of a refund. If they hadn't told me they were a week away from shipping 5 months ago, they wouldn't have gotten another order either. It was a long series of bad decisions that led us here, but this is my way of digging myself out of the hold. I do feel a little for those forced to sell to me, but in the end, everybody hurts a little and justice is served, or everybody hurts a lot, and josh and sonny sit on a beach we paid for, drinking beer we paid for, enjoying women we paid for. |
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great thread. I think inaba got scared with my post at the top of this page.
Yeah, thanks for that, it's not like i wanted to win a 350 BTC bet or anything. Hell, even I'm on that page lately. It's sad too, because their concept designs were slick (speaking as a non-hardware guy) and it looked like they might actually pull Bitcoin into an era of mass consumer mining.
Instead we're being pulled into an era of mass consumer doubt. Mass consumer mining isn't advantageous to people currently running custom hardware though. Look at sony, they haven't even shown a picture of the PS4, and i've already got a pre-order on it. I have no doubt they'll deliver. Then again, they haven't called me an idiot or a liar lately. |
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I believe BFL will ship. Albeit 7 moths late and way off on their power/speed estimates, but they will ship.
My biggest grievance is that they are liars and continue to lie to their customers that funded their R&D.
Their biggest concern from day 1 has been to keep the preorder money flowing into their bank account.
The problem is: What is your definition of ship? Because technically they shipped a unit to Luke. Will they ship all of the orders full blown, or will they ship a few every month lol. No, they did not "technically ship a unit to Luke." That was a BS April fools, smoke and mirrors, get our of losing all the BTC we made on our bet kind of deal. By shipping I mean shipping their product to every customer that still has a pre-order, I actually believe they will do this. But, of course they will be slow with shipping and not ship anywhere close to the numbers they were suggesting (400/day)... it's BFL.... It took them like 6 months+ to ship all their FPGA preorders. I'm pretty sure they have more ASIC preorders than they did FPGAs because they've been advertising like crazy since day 1. So... I'd say AT LEAST 6 months for them to make it out of their preorder backlog. It is stated quite clearly in this thread by Josh Zerlan, COO and spokesman of Butterfly Labs, that shipping "thousands" before june 1st is out of the question, and "shipping" 5 within the next 6 weeks is reasonable. You guys... don't get me wrong, I've been one of BFL's biggest critics for a long time.
The only difference in between me and you is I think they will ship eventually.
I agree they are liars, crooks, and scumbags. But I think they are liars, crooks, and scumbags that will eventually deliver a product. Don't get ME wrong, i think it's possible they could ship, but i don't believe that strongly enough to ignore the other possiblity. We're totally on the same page about them being liars, crooks, and scumbags though. |
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Josh has gone offline, as you would expect a scammer would when confronted with facts, but i got 4 posts out of him in a single day. That is his highest number of posts per day since March 26th, 2013. Nearly 1 month ago.
Consider that, then consider my offer. I don't have a busniess card to offer, but please respect once there are 30 more out there that my offer was the first. On all the exchanges the first order in is the first order processed, but there really isn't an exchange for this type of thing, so we really have to rely on respect.
Thank you and goodnight.
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frank, I've changed my mind about you... I live in Denver only a few hours from bfl. let me know how I can help you.
Uh oh, this guy has caught on to what Frankie is after....watch out. Inaba (A BFL employee for those that don't know) I bet the only reason the BFL employee showed up in this thread is because he needs to put the breaks on your thread before people start either: A) That their refunds are in anyway at risk when or if they ever need them. B) The legal spear that might come to bite them in the ass as one (or a handful) of people buy up defunct pre-orders at pennies on the dollar...with BTC. Those that aren't catching on think Frankie is after the refunds from those orders yet fail to see that isn't his winning strategy. As everyone who will eventually go to Frankie is going to have already tried the refund window. With Customer Service at BFL taking many days or weeks to get a response back (at times)...Frankie would only have to wait for it all to fall apart and people to panic. Then collect a ton of order for pennies on the dollar, do the legal process and finally collect. How much would he collect? Could be a dollar on dollar amount. Could be alot less than that. Probably more than 10cents on each dollar. @ Frankie I would ignore Inaba. He is just trying to derail your thread or is probably asking the mods move it or get it deleted/locked. Your strategy took a few hours to sink in. It truly it is a beneficial strategy to all involved if BFL did go defunct. I suppose it would be better than a customer crying about losing 100%. I suspect though that you would lower your rates based on the level of panic that would be created with a failed BFL. If I were you, I would ignore Inaba. Hes going to probably try his darndest to derail the thread. Let it stand as an open offer. This isn't some cunning get-rich-strategy. I won't be able to collect legal fees out of wage garnishments of company directors. I will, however, be able to collect the full amount of purchased debt, which if purchased cheaply will hopefully *fingers crossed* cover legal fees. I won't be requesting refunds from purchased orders, because that would basically cause a BFL collapse like it did with bASIC, which is in nobody's best interest. As terrible as they are, BFL failing would be bad for bitcoin, but for the most part i have no control over them failing or not. Everything i have seen within the past few weeks suggest it is almost certain, and i am preparing for that. I'm not trying to make a mint here, i'm trying not to lose my shirt. This felt like a game at $15/btc, but it really doesn't at $120/btc. |
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Come on, josh. you're obviously still online. how about 350btc, 4200 units by june 1st, 2013. That gives you 4 full weeks of dicking around or whatever you've been doing for the last TEN MONTHS, 14 days of production at the 300 days you claim to be capable of, and shipping. I have an order in the xxxx3800s, i am sure others here have orders before and after me, together we will confirm whether the bet is won or lost.
Refusing this bet is admitting you won't ship at full capacity by june 1st.
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Lets break this down real quick:
1. You want to hedge your bet.
2. You are absolutely positive BFL won't ship. Ergo, a bet against BFL is a sure thing, according to your claim.
3. You are guaranteed a win of 500 BTC (or whatever amount you care to wager)
4. You don't want to bet because it's the "opposite" of hedging.
Let's break THIS down a little bit 1. you consider orders with your own company a bet 2. you consider a 10% hedge against a 100% order a sure thing 3. again, you're willing to cheat and scam your way to the winning side of a bet 4. you're really bad at math. So you just tell me how many units you consider legit to satisfy the claim of shipped there champ, we'll go with that. How about we start with the orders so far which have been bought and paid for in full. That shouldn't be too hard, a company shipping orders that were paid for months ago, should it? Legally an order has to be refunded or shipped within 30 days of full payment, so we can exclude any orders placed since march 20th, so only the orders placed between june 2012, and march 20, 2013. I'll put 350 BTC in escrow up against that, that you won't ship all orders placed within that time period before june 1st, 2013. What do you say? Yep, I nailed it. Your claim: BFL won't ship any product. Your bet: BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st. Which is it Franky? Will BFL ship a product or not? Your claim is that BFL won't ship a product, you are unwilling to bet on that, but you ARE willing to bet that BFL won't ship thousands of products before June 1st, 2013. Why would you need to put such ridiculous constraints on a bet when you believe BFL won't even ship a single product? Oh... maybe it's because you're a lying piece of shit? Yeah, thought so... I'm the lying piece of shit? Point out where i said BFL won't ship any product. I could refute other parts of this post, but the entirety of it is based on the claim that i said "BFL won't ship any product." You, yourself, have said that you are less than a week away from shipping, and that you have a 300 unit per day capacity, and openly mocked your competitors for not having a 300 unit per day capacity. Ive offered a bet providing 6 weeks. I've seen pictures of your stack of minirig cases, the fact that your company owns a dymo lableler, and the fact that you feel anything you slap a customers name on you count as shipped, i would be an idiot to count anything less than ACTUAL shipping to customers as "shipping" The real question now is why you consider shipping thousands of products within 6 weeks out of the question when you have a 300 unit per day capacity, there's nothing wrong with the chips, and the new boards should be in any day now. |
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dropping my offer back to 20 cents on the dollar.
Starting to look like you overbid even with the revised bid, isn't it? |
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Lets break this down real quick:
1. You want to hedge your bet.
2. You are absolutely positive BFL won't ship. Ergo, a bet against BFL is a sure thing, according to your claim.
3. You are guaranteed a win of 500 BTC (or whatever amount you care to wager)
4. You don't want to bet because it's the "opposite" of hedging.
Let's break THIS down a little bit 1. you consider orders with your own company a bet 2. you consider a 10% hedge against a 100% order a sure thing 3. again, you're willing to cheat and scam your way to the winning side of a bet 4. you're really bad at math. So you just tell me how many units you consider legit to satisfy the claim of shipped there champ, we'll go with that. How about we start with the orders so far which have been bought and paid for in full. That shouldn't be too hard, a company shipping orders that were paid for months ago, should it? Legally an order has to be refunded or shipped within 30 days of full payment, so we can exclude any orders placed since march 20th, so only the orders placed between june 2012, and march 20, 2013. I'll put 350 BTC in escrow up against that, that you won't ship all orders placed within that time period before june 1st, 2013. What do you say? |
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Yeah, i'm not laying down 500 BTC just so this fucking troll can walk around their little shop slapping "luke-jr" on empty minirig cases to claim they shipped 5 units. I really couldn't ask for any better advertising for my offer.
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Without giving too much away with regards to my legal strategy, 4 people have made themselves and their personal assets liable by representing themselves as officers of the company in more than 1 country. I'm not opening myself up to scammers by purchasing their "word" that they're selling me their order. I'm not an idiot, i wouldn't make the offer, and won't issue payment without a means to recover my investment. I made that mistake with my initial BFL order, and won't make it again.
Dude... you are the very definition of idiot. heh Buying debt because "BFL won't ship." Yeah.. good luck with that. How about you lay some BTC on that in the form of a bet? Lets say 500 BTC? How many units do you consider as being valid for "shipped?" 5 units? I'm more than willing to do escrow. Let me guess... you're going to pull a Micon and not take the bet or put weird caveats on it, even though your claim is that BFL is a scam and/or that BFL won't ship... but you're not willing to bet on it. It's idiots like you that are classic example of what an idiot is. You make a claim, but then refuse to back up the claim and back peddle over and over when your ludicrous claims get wrecked. Just take a look at Micon's history as far as claims for BFL goes. He's made crazy wild claims repeatedly and each time they get wrecked, but he's so stupid he can't even understand why people don't take him seriously. You've made it quite obvious you're willing to pay for bets to go your way. You've also made it quite clear you're quicker to jump to insults than facts. YOU WORK FOR THE GOD DAMN COMPANY. Why is it you have to jump in here and spout "idiot, idiot, idiot" instead of "yeah, here's your order, let's ship that thing to you"? How about instead of calling me an idiot, and betting 500btc, or calling avalon garbage, and betting 1000 BTC you won't miss your power usage targets you SHIP SOME GOD DAMN ASICS TO YOUR GOD DAMN CUSTOMERS. i'm not betting 500 BTC against you shipping because that would be the opposite of hedging against my BFL orders that YOU STILL HAVEN'T FUCKING SHIPPED YOU USELESS PIECE OF SHIT. |
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Assuming those two are even still reachable when the shit hits the fan.
says the guy who's less than 30 days old to a person who's been a miner and active in these forums for two years. we'll see who is still here IF bfl ever ships. (I've erased more posts than you've made). says the guy useing a pseudonym with no risk to his orders. (i've never erased a post) Like suddently this forum is the entirety of the bitcoin community, considering how often it shits itself, that wouldn't bode well for bitcoin in general. If only we could donate to the forum to improve the hosting/software[/sarcasm] |
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when they don't, I am option three.
Fair enough, but for the "hard of reading" I'll quote the other offers in this thread. $0.75
I will pay 30 cents on the dollar.
You're more likely to be option five in all fairness. Assuming those two are even still reachable when the shit hits the fan. That's the point of this thread, that's why this thread isn't a reply to an auction thread for BFL debt. I have the BTC set aside for this very reason, i am buying the debt for a reason. Those two bullshit replies were posted with the intent of immediately requesting a refund for a 100% immediate BFL refund. A run on refunds would sink the company fucking over everybody else. I have no doubt that i would eventually buy the debt off of those two cunts at the 10% initially offered. A run on refunds would sink BFL as it did bASIC, i will break even or profit if BFL ships, this thread is to ensure that i will at bare minimum break even if they don't. |
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The most recent of your examples is still over 10 days old, and of orders placed over 6 months ago. Again, i repeat, for those hard of reading(this means you Mathew N. Wright), if you feel they will ship, keep your order, by all means. if you think they won't, request a refund, when they don't, I am option three. |
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if you were paying 0.1 BTC on the original BTC paid, I bet you'd get a lot of offers  I would also go broke in a god damn hurry. 0.1 btc on an original order would still put me at 55k for a minirig, and $2,400 for a single. |
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