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521  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 06:13:37 PM

im not a fan of private property, so i will play along and say: no one, not even me. im un-owned.
People who say they aren't fans of private property are usually people who don't own much.
no, i don't own much. but im still fairly happy, i don't need to own much. and what i own i only own because the society seems to assert private property rights. if we lived in a society with no private property rights i would still have what i have now, note that the first have is a "i own"-have, and the other is a "i have access to"-have, which is about the same.
522  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 06:02:02 PM
this system smells fishy. ONE person decides what the outcome will be,

Is it not the same for bitcoin? One person will eventually win the lottery by finding a winning block. His view of the network is accepted as "the" view. Although in reality it is actually just a few pools that can make that determination and can easily collude. Perhaps pools give you warm fuzzies, but they are far less decentralized than the system I propose.

Quote
and decides who will be next to make a decision?

Absolutely, unequivocally, not. I specifically noted how the random order would be determined to help you understand this. The Consensus Block only exists if it is agreed on by all SHs. The reason why I designed the consensus period to be so long is so that a) SHs do not have to constantly monitor the network (they only need to be online around the time in which they have to create a TB), and b)

Quote
you assume SHs agrees. which i assure you, they will not.

to give an ample window of time to organize the Transaction Block chain so that whoever is going to provide a TB or CB signature (if they missed their TB or had their TB dropped by the CN or other SHs) has the opportunity to do so. I did not cover the Transaction Block chain in the OP because it starts getting into the very technical details of network security, which I have already promised Ukigo that I will detail soon.

There are only two reasons why consensus of the network can not be reached:

1) EvilCorp. owns a significant amount of shares and is trying to make it look like TheGoodGuys are not attempting to reach consensus. This is thwarted by the larger and more diverse CN, as well as CNCs and SPs, watching network activity. They will refuse to acknowledge newer blocks that have not acknowledged previous blocks. This is not a hard and fast rule, it is determined by the will of the entire network. The longer you wait to acknowledge a TB that has propagated, the more likely your TB will fail. The only way to get around this is to also control the vast majority of the CN, and really, a large portion of the CNCs/SPs as well. At this point you are just playing with yourself. Don't forget that this will also require a not insignificant percentage of all the coins in existence.
2) Internet infrastructure goes down/governments block outside access/specifically target decrits. These are all solved by meshnet technology. While it's easy to say "it will be solved in the future", this is not a problem the network can fix, though of course it will have ways to recover from minor and even major splits, but only if they are reasonably temporary*. And even for an extended period people locked out of the network only need to get through a few dozen bytes to maintain consensus.

edit: * - Reasonable is a fairly long time, on the order of 10-30 CDs depending on how it finally ends up working out and how strong of a possibility this really seems (not that likely, but China for example could be a problem with its history).
and what happens when they are corrupted?

you really don't understand the sybil attack do you?
523  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 05:58:31 PM
Who owns your life, then?
We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)
Well, if you don't own yourself, who does?
im not a fan of private property, so i will play along and say: no one, not even me. im un-owned.
No, don't "play along." Tell me what you actually think. I'm tired of running around in circles with you because you won't nail down an actual position. If you do not own your life, who does?
no one, im unowned. I reject the concept of private property.

For reference:
prop·er·ty 
/ˈpräpərtē/
Noun

    A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively.
i know the definition. but people can still have lengthy discussions about who owns what.
You said "property is not well defined" Well, there is property, very well defined.
knowing the definition does not mean that its always well defined.

absurd example:
an alien race decided for many millions years ago, ot play god,  and create the planet earth, and they therefor owns it, and everything on it.
now we humans live and owns the earth.now we humans live and owns the earth.
what will happen when they come back, and take back the earth and us humans that they created? who owns what?

do you eat meat? 
I do indeed. I assume you have a point here.
you know some people like to extend the so-called natural rights to every living being, right?

well you just violated a cute cow's inalienable right to live, by having someone kill it so you could eat a good and tasty beef.

now if you say that your natural rights does not work that way, i will say that they are arbitrary and therefor not natural, and ask you: "do black people have natural rights?".
524  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 05:35:13 PM
Who owns your life, then?
We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)
Well, if you don't own yourself, who does?
im not a fan of private property, so i will play along and say: no one, not even me. im un-owned.

For reference:
prop·er·ty 
/ˈpräpərtē/
Noun

    A thing or things belonging to someone; possessions collectively.
i know the definition. but people can still have lengthy discussions about who owns what.



do you eat meat? 
525  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 05:29:41 PM
See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.
Then you support only legal rights, and deny natural rights?
yup. i believe that all rights are artificial and are therefor not natural, which means that the whole concept of natural rights is a oxymoron.

legal rights does not lie about their artificially. they 100% man made and arbitrary, just as "natural" rights. supports of "natural" rights just don't want to admit it.
Who owns your life, then?
We have been there once already: property is not well defined. No, i don't own myself. (is that what i need to say to win?)
526  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 05:23:15 PM
See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.
Then you support only legal rights, and deny natural rights?
yup. i believe that all rights are artificial and are therefor not natural, which means that the whole concept of natural rights is a oxymoron.

legal rights does not lie about their artificially. they 100% man made and arbitrary, just as "natural" rights. supports of "natural" rights just don't want to admit it.

Have you ever earned an honest Krone in your life?
nope! but im hopefully going to when im done with my state paid education.
527  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 05:10:44 PM
lets say that we have 4 SHs. and 3 addresses, A with 10 "coins", and B and C with 0 "coins" each.

SH_1 receives a incoming transaction saying that A transfers 10 coins to B, TX(A->B).
SH_2 receives a incoming transaction saying that A transfers 10 coins to C, TX(A->C).

SH_3 have a incentive to support TX(A->B), for some irrelevant reason.
SH_4 have a incentive to support TX(A->C), for some irrelevant reason.

which transaction wins?

SHs are assigned in random orders* to produce Transaction Blocks that cover specific 10 second periods in each CB. The transaction that wins will be based on which SH is the next to create a TB after the transactions have propagated. This is the basis for 5-15 second confirmations.

* - The "random" order is changed by the hash of the 100% SH signature consensus (or less than 100% with unsigning SHs losing their deposit--section 1.B.ii) of the prior CB.
this system smells fishy. ONE person decides what the outcome will be, and decides who will be next to make a decision? and SH that not agrees will loose their deposits.

you assume SHs agrees. which i assure you, they will not.
528  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 05:04:22 PM
Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.
proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.
You're right, you're not begging. you're demanding. You have no right to the productivity of others without their consent.
The danish SU law disagrees with you, i have the right under danish law.

https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/r0710.aspx?id=125699
Danish law grants you the privilege of leeching off the productivity of others. Rights are not granted by laws. They cannot be taken away by laws. If that law were to change, you would lose the ability to benefit from other's work. Since you cannot lose a right, that is by definition not a right, but, in fact, a violation of other's right to their own productivity. Asking someone else to mug someone is no better than mugging them yourself.
See, here we disagree again: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights#Definitional_issues

The state have the right to grant rights to others.

You might even *gasp* have to work! (Oh noes!)
...and take my focus away from my education?

i want to work, WHEN IM FINISHED WITH MY EDUCATION!
Then live off your real mother, or seek private charity, and take your support voluntarily, rather than by force.
I come from a poor family and my mother cannot support me. Private charity for education does no longer exist in Denmark, as least not as much that it does any difference.

Taxes exist to level the playing field, and minimize the difference between rich and poor.

have you ever been poor?
529  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 04:36:17 PM
Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.
proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.
You're right, you're not begging. you're demanding. You have no right to the productivity of others without their consent.
The danish SU law disagrees with you, i have the right under danish law.

https://www.retsinformation.dk/Forms/r0710.aspx?id=125699


You might even *gasp* have to work! (Oh noes!)
...and take my focus away from my education?

i want to work, WHEN IM FINISHED WITH MY EDUCATION!
530  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 04:26:18 PM
AU2 which is accutually BS, double spends the transaction. because it know secret S, from the broadcast.

There isn't a concept of "double spending" in Decrits because coins are not tracked individually, they are tracked by account balances (instead the concept is "bad spends"--spends that would take your account below zero, or in a SH's case, below 3,000). Every blinded transaction has an equal opportunity to any of the coins in the SH's account until it goes below the share size. Knowing S does not unrepudiate the transaction. The Decrits network will not just ignore this like Bitcoin does. There is no retribution for acknowledging it in Bitcoin though so it is not *completely* necessary (though the current implementation is rather bone-headed from a merchant's standpoint), whereas in Decrits the offending SH will be penalized.
lets say that we have 4 SHs. and 3 addresses, A with 10 "coins", and B and C with 0 "coins" each.

SH_1 receives a incoming transaction saying that A transfers 10 coins to B, TX(A->B).
SH_2 receives a incoming transaction saying that A transfers 10 coins to C, TX(A->C).

SH_3 have a incentive to support TX(A->B), for some irrelevant reason.
SH_4 have a incentive to support TX(A->C), for some irrelevant reason.

which transaction wins?
531  Other / Off-topic / Re: So much talk and 0 action, lets actually make a sovereign territory on: April 28, 2013, 03:21:30 PM
Hrmm fight the bankers with their own game.  That's something I've never heard before.

http://freestateproject.org/
Quote
New Hampshire legislators are only paid a salary of $100 per year, helping ensure the existence of a citizen legislature committed to public service, unlike every other state.
so i can buy them to make laws for me?
532  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 03:15:35 PM
AU sends B(S) to BS and asks for it to be paid out.

AU sends B(S) to the network where every other SH will see it as a valid transaction and add it to his TB.
AU2 which is accutually BS, double spends the transaction. because it know secret S, from the broadcast.
533  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 03:12:56 PM
Take all your tax money, set it aside. With that money, select the services you would like.
okay, i will play your little game.

Healthcare? Private insurance is much cheaper than government-funded.
proof please. i payback 500$ to the government, of what they have giving me. Its all the rich people that pays.

Roads? Pay only for those you actually use.
Shit no!

Military? A defensive force is much cheaper than one on the attack (This, likely, wouldn't change much in Denmark but what a change it would be here in the US!).
+1 that i agree on.

Welfare? Private charities are orders of magnitude more efficient than government welfare.
proof please. it does not feel good to beg, and be at the mercy of others. if i have the right receive to SU while under education, im not begging.

Now, with what's left over, buy better housing, a better car, better food, and tell me your life isn't better off.
no taxes, no SU. So i will get exactly 0$ every month, for which i have to pay for my education, my housing, a car, food. which gives me +2000$ in debt every month, yay! (btw. i have no car, right now. im fine with public transportation and my bike.)

I think i will stick with the government support, and pay my taxes.
534  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 02:46:24 PM
this cannot be done securely. the SH can steal the deposited money without any proof of doing so, due to the anonymity of the receiver and plausible deniability of blind-sig.

im convinced now, you really don't know what you are talking about.

There is no plausible deniability to a non-repudiated digital signature, blind or otherwise. That is a basic tenet of digital signatures. A transaction arriving that brings the SH's account below 3,000 DCR is proof that the SH has stolen or is attempting to steal money. The SH could sign the 2,500 DCR worth of transactions, cash them all out immediately, and when any of the legitimate unblinded txes come in, the fraud will be revealed with proof for all to see, and the SH will lose the 3,000 deposit.
so all addresses must be some how be under centrally control?

consider this:
BS is a blind signing bank.
AU is anonymous user.

AU creates a secret S and blinds it with a key K, and now have a message called K(S).
AU pays BS to blind sign K(S), and receives B(K(S)) back.
AU then unblinds B(K(S)): K^-1(B(K(S))) = B(S).
AU sends B(S) to BS and asks for it to be paid out.
BS have now S denies to pay out, claiming that the secret S have already been used.
AU is scammed without being able to proof it, BS can always show that it knows S and therefor that it has been "used".
BS wins, AU loses.
535  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 02:26:14 PM

in the state of Denmark, i have more then enough freedom to be happy. and i think giving me more freedom and responsibility would make me less happy. It is nice to have a state to blame when stuff fucks up.

Denmark, huh.  No wonder you guys love the state.

Danes Rethink a Welfare State
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


But I wouldn't get too comfortable, if I were you...
aaahh yes the carina case. lol it was a huge fail.

I was shocked when I read that article.  How do you guys sustain that crazy situation?  How do you afford it?  And how are you going to make it last?  Creating a society of dependent people might look OK for awhile, but it's really unhealthy.  
agreed. but if the dependent people can't find work(you know, the current economic crisis) it is actually a good thing to have government support, and wait for better times. if i could live my whole life on government support, i would not do it because i would get bored and i assume other people will too.

government support is only for the needing. currently i am on the governments education support, as i believe that its better for my education and in turn better for the society.
536  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 02:17:43 PM
Funny how abused children almost always say that. "Mommy hits me because she loves me!"
I don't feel abused, and mother denmark does not hit me.

But i would likely get ass raped and murdered in a AnCap society.
I take this to mean that you would refuse to operate within the constraints of such a society, and not subscribe to a protection service or arbitration firm, and as such, be an outlaw. Well, if you don't play the game right, don't be surprised when you lose.
so i have to have a protection service, like im forced to or i will die?

look at somalia, AnCap was going strong there, and people where really happy and lived in peace. Smiley
Yes, Let's look at Somalia. (Even though that's more of a anarcho-socialist arrangement.)
http://www.peterleeson.com/Better_Off_Stateless.pdf
Quote
Such was the case with Somalia’s government, which did more harm to its citizens than good.
why don't you live in Somalia if its such a good place?

yes, it did got better after their state collapsed, but its still not as good as northern Europe. you can not extrapolate like that, just because the somali governement was fucked and it got better, does not mean that it will be that way for all states of the world.
537  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 01:53:05 PM

in the state of Denmark, i have more then enough freedom to be happy. and i think giving me more freedom and responsibility would make me less happy. It is nice to have a state to blame when stuff fucks up.

Denmark, huh.  No wonder you guys love the state.

Danes Rethink a Welfare State
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/21/world/europe/danes-rethink-a-welfare-state-ample-to-a-fault.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&


But I wouldn't get too comfortable, if I were you...
aaahh yes the carina case. lol it was a huge fail.
538  Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is the thread where you discuss free market, americans and libertarianism on: April 28, 2013, 01:45:05 PM
in the state of Denmark, i have more then enough freedom to be happy. and i think giving me more freedom and responsibility would make me less happy. It is nice to have a state to blame when stuff fucks up.

Yup, personal responsibility is a bitch, it's nice to have mommy Government to fall back on, huh? Too bad she's such an abusive parent.
no, Mother Denmark is not abusive. But i would likely get ass raped and murdered in a AnCap society.

look at somalia, AnCap was going strong there, and people where really happy and lived in peace. Smiley
539  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Decrits Digest: Solution for a value stable, truly decentralized currency on: April 28, 2013, 01:32:50 PM
Did you read the post I linked right after that sentence?

"Actually, I thought about it a bit more, and specifically under the Decrits system this would be possible because of the shareholder system.

Users blind their transactions and shareholders add them to a blind sig queue. Once there are enough in the queue (decided by the protocol, say 50 or so txes), a shareholder will sign all of them and have the coins deposited to his shareholder stake.[..] You have the slight chance of getting boned if the shareholder removes his share,"

While this is true, there is a non-gameable way to ensure this is a waste of time and money. The penalty for seeing more withdrawals than allowed (when the blind signees come to get their money) is bigger than the gain made by stealing money. For example, if a SH has a 3,000 DCR deposit, he will only be allowed to blind sign 2,500 DCR which will be added to his stake. If a transaction places his stake below 3,000 DCR, he will lose 3,000 DCR for a net of -500 and all reputation associated with his SH (3 years potentially down the drain). An "early withdrawal" penalty would be say 250 DCR, so it is also not a profitable avenue over just taking that penalty.
this cannot be done securely. the SH can steal the deposited money without any proof of doing so, due to the anonymity of the receiver and plausible deniability of blind-sig.

im convinced now, you really don't know what you are talking about.
540  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: What version of Linux? on: April 28, 2013, 11:51:01 AM
what's the best freeware
lol. linux stuff is open source. it is really amazing how people comming from windows have a hard time grasping the concept of opensource freedom.

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