mining will start in 3days or thats just the funding date?
Mining is months away, according to the Ethereum people. The fundraiser starts on 1 February 2014 (00:00 GMT). In terms of mining, there'll be testnet first, followed by mainnet. You will have plenty of time to charge your lasers.  |
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Hi All,
Bit of a newbie here and I'm not inclined to post much but I really wanted to chip in with my 2 cents worth. Unfortunately that will be all I will be chipping in.
I cannot overstate how disappointed I have been with this launch. I had heard great things about the team and the idea behind this project and after reading the white paper I've been really excited about the IPO and what Ethereum is planning to offer.
I had planned to invest on day 1.
I have read this entire thread from beginning to end and obviously, lots of questions, criticisms and concerns have been raised here. Some of them legitimate and some of them I'm sure not so. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the devs and have been looking forward to hearing their rebuttal of the criticism.
I think it is absolutely unforgivable that not one member of the (large) team has been on here to offer any sort of answers to the many questions of potential investors who have legitimate concerns over the use of their hard earned. It is three days before the launch and I would have thought that they would be doing everything in their power to be putting people at their ease. I realise that they may have been busy over the weekend but there is simply no excuse for not getting on here and answering some questions. IMHO it smacks of arrogance.
Despite this I have not lost all interest in the project and will be following the launch closely. I for one however, will not be putting one mBTC on the line before getting some serious answers.
If anyone from the team actually reads this then please put us straight... Some serious PR needed now methinks...
This is a really good summary of what I think most Bitcointalk people feel as of late, which is also what is driving most of the negative stuff in this thread. |
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As much as I want Ethereum to succeed, a fool and his money are soon parted. There has to be much stronger interaction with the community. These people are upset for many reasons. I will continue being an optimist and hope they won't be ignored. |
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Closed the other due too much Spam/FUD. It is not about a discussion pro/contra Ethereum here.
It is simply a poll for people planning to invest.
People not interested to invest are not invited to poll (that is why there is no 0).
I will delete all other posts not respecting that statement.
Sometimes you've got to be the bad man to keep the other bad men from the door. |
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If you support Ethereum you are fired - both metaphysically and spiritually from humanity. You are no longer human in my eyes because you are directly slowing technological progression and costing millions of human lives in the long run.
Literally the most ridiculous thing I've read on Bitcointalk. Trying to force your own will onto others is exactly what you did with that statement. Are we not free to choose? |
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I've added a question to the list: (#) Ask them to make the case for why we need Proof of Work and the inflationary model of crypto-equity distribution? If Proof of Work is necessary for securing the blockchain, why aren't they going with a deflationary model which requires Ethers to be destroyed when spent to offset the justified inflation if it must be mined by Proof of Work? |
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1.) Ask them to make the case for why we need Proof of Work and the inflationary model of crypto-equity distribution?
2.) If Proof of Work is necessary for securing the blockchain, why aren't they going with a deflationary model which requires Ethers to be destroyed when spent to offset the justified inflation if it must be mined by Proof of Work?
Nice to see you in here too, Luckybit.  This is the kind of discussion we need once we get the information people want to make a decision about the fundraiser terms. I got to run, but I'm going to add this when I sit down again. Thanks! |
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+1
I'm sure that if my team and I would try to launch something similar, we would be communicating 24/7 really (heaving turns/shifts) to satisfy the the curiosity and to draw even more people in who would be able to see that we are real and devoted.
Why don't they at least make some G+ hangout event or something similar where they would answer questions.
In this day and age, not communicating before such "IPO"s is unforgivable and excuses like: "They are in Miami over the weekend" when there are 20 of them is insulting....
Even if Vitalik is really looking forward to only 500BTC it is still half a million $. For that much we are still deserving some answers and engagement.
There's no doubt that this thread turned into a bit of a disaster. I really want Ethereum to be the real deal, so I don't want to just give up on it because it lost some steam. I think they should have someone in here to engage the community. And maybe they screwed up by not having that (even if it was because of Miami), but let's focus on the ideas - they're good ones. So that's what drives me. Having said that, people are pissed at the fundraiser terms, and we can't deny that. It could be because of misunderstanding, or people could legitimately find that early contributors are given too much risk to carry compared to the Ethereum folks. That's why I want to get questions answered so we can make informed decisions and decide whether or not we want to support it with contributions. A potentially game changing idea for the future of cryptocurrency is at risk if we are informed by the wrong information. |
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I've added a question to the list: (#) This question comes from giladio_0 on Reddit. Why was the choice made to crowdfund this whooping amount outside of the due registration and regulatory processes such as the SEC or Canadian equivalent? What is the purpose of this? It will only instigate trouble with the regulators and jeopardize all of the investor's money, and the stability of the project. |
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_ingsoc is right. We -as potential investors - have the right to ask legitimate question. The Ethereum team haven't even bother to look into this discussion for days now let alone answer our concerns... And all before the great 30k BTC IPO.... Something is not right here....
We do have that right. Even if your question is absolutely nuts, you should still get an answer. I'm just trying to group as much of it together as possible so we can get responses. It becomes very difficult for them to read mountains of texts from individual users. If we get no response from a list like that, and you're unhappy with that treatment, then you know what to do. At least this gives the community a chance for everyone to get their concerns answered in a structured way. I also have no affiliation with this project. I'm actually involved in a project called MC2. I'm just more interested in collaboration and building bridges to a better future than to burn them all day in petty competition. I try and help all interesting projects. So I'm trying to get information properly. At the end of the day, it's your money, and I don't want to lose mine either. |
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_ingsoc is for Ethereum what TKeenan is for Mastercoin lol
I don't know who TKeenan is. When I first heard about Ethereum, I thought it was interesting. I think it's one of the most promising projects we've seen in a long time (in concept). Most people can agree with that. I'm concerned about some of the issues raised on here too. Given that I plan on putting some of my own money into it, I want to try and figure out what's going on and make a decision. I know we're not going to figure that out by all getting on a box and screaming as loud as we can. I'm trying to help you, dammit! |
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I would like to add, what would happen if the bitcoin community gave them the 30,000 bitcoins they are asking for? Wall Street and Goldman Sachs advisers would come out with a new team every week and would ask for a large pre-mine and pre-sale before launch of every new coin. Ethereum would set a precedent and we would enter a new era dominated by wall street that would take all the profits out up front and put the entire risk on the bitcoin community. If this pre-sale is a success, it would be the end for miners and crypto investors. Right now we are able to take a risk on ground floor investments, but once/if this coin succeeds we will be forced to buy in and take more risk on every new coin. This coin is NOT a ground floor investment, it is not even midterm, it is a long term investment that will be instantly diluted that shifts the early profits entirely to the coin devs and puts the risk entirely on the bitcoin community. Everything will have to go perfectly for miners and investors to make any money. And it will only be the beginning, because if they see this model works, then every new coin will tax the bitcoin community and put the risk on us.
Given that so damn vocal on here, you want to put some of your speech into something they can actually respond to? Like something direct? |
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I don't even want to go into Goldman Sachs part....
There is some information from charleshoskinson about the Goldman Sachs issue. I reproduce this for visibility. If you think it's bs, point out what you want more information about or what doesn't stack up (if it's substantial I can add it to the list and we can get answers). - (Q) Charles mentioned someone or some people that either have a present or past relationship with Goldman Sachs are involved or expressed an interest in the project. Can you elaborate on this relationship? Some people are upset by this.
- (A) from charleshoskinson:
Goldman Sachs is not involved in our venture. We did not solicit them for investment, the company is not assisting us in any way.
We have two quantitative analysts on our team who both have a diverse background off and on wall street including both working for Goldman sachs at some point in their careers. Dr. Costa lives in Asia at the moment and runs an independent hedge fund and Joseph lupin has most recently been involved in the music industry in Jamaica.
The blockchain is owned by those who participate in the fundraiser and those receiving the early stakeholders premine. Let me be clear: No Bank, No financial entity including Goldman Sachs has been allocated any amount of the premine. If they want a chunk then they have to buy it once the fundraiser starts like everyone else.
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I've added a question to the list: (#) There are 22 people listed in the post by Vitalik Buterin introducing the project. Who are the community liaisons for Bitcointalk or representatives that can help answer some of these community concerns and questions? These boys are girls can get a bit rabid from time to time, and it becomes really difficult for newcomers to get accurate information without knowing whose posts to look for. |
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I wouldn't care where people worked before hand. It's the fact that Ethereum seems to be designed to screw investors. It almost seems like it's designed wrong on purpose.
I'm willing to say it's possible that it's just a philosophical disagreement. A lot of very smart people can disagree on these matters. I'm willing to watch how Ethereum does but I'm not going to be investing in an IPO where it's 1000 Ethers a Bitcoin. That is so over priced that it's almost ridiculous. 50% premine is even more ridiculous.
Say what you want about the IPO but as an investor it's just too much risk. On top of that the design is extremely ambitious but also presents security risks as well being that it is turing complete. Using virtual machines and sandboxes may help but it's also going to make it much more expensive and difficult to develop than people here realize.
I like the technology, so from that perspective I think its pretty cool. But from the perspective of an investor I think it's not worth the risk to me when you have Bitshares, Mastercoin and others which aren't going to inflate for eternity (for no apparent reason).
If you're going to dilute our shares don't ask for 50% premine. Don't design it in such a way so that it is as unattractive to early investors as possible. We aren't stupid.
Help me add words to the questions if I'm missing things. I'm trying to get through the noise and summarise community concerns. Ethereum has the potential to be a great project, but who would want to bring a project to this community if the response is totally out of control. If their responses suck and the community feels they can go to hell, then that's cool if we got organised and had proper discourse. You also know I'm working with tacotime on MC2, so I'm trying to learn so I don't have to cry myself to sleep when there's more community engagement with that project. |
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It's even worse than that. Look:
TS(t) = 1.5*X + 0.4*X*t
For every $2 raised there is inflation value of:
$1 of premine
$0.8 of 1yr mine
TS(1) = 1.5 * $2 + 0.4 * $2 = $3.8
2/3.8 = 0.526
Aaaand.... it's gone. Almost 50% of your investment.
If this is a concern or question about inflation please help me word it into a question so we can get answers. Refer to this post. |
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Why an IPO(under such extreme conditions), why such complex inflation model?
Cool. Added it to the list. Just use a singe bullet point "(#) Your Question" so I can keep track of it all. I'll add a formatting suggestion. |
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Alright. At this point I think it's pretty unreasonable to expect them to go through 32 pages and extract all the information people are unhappy about in order to get a response. So why don't we compile a list in bullet form to summarise things people need information about. I'll add a few points that seem to pop up (no matter how crazy anyone thinks they are). If you want to post bullet points to get information about, please do so and I'll add them to this list. LIST OF COMMUNITY QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS (ADD TO IT)*- (Q) Can you explain your reasoning behind the 0.50*X premine and its division in the organisation in conjunction with the reasoning behind raising Bitcoin for expenses? Some people seem to view this as "double dipping", so information on the reasoning behind these decisions would be really helpful (this might be in the prospectus to some extent).
- Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)
- (Q) Charles mentioned someone or some people that either have a present or past relationship with Goldman Sachs are involved or expressed an interest in the project. Can you elaborate on this relationship? Some people are upset by this.
- (A) from charleshoskinson:
Goldman Sachs is not involved in our venture. We did not solicit them for investment, the company is not assisting us in any way.
We have two quantitative analysts on our team who both have a diverse background off and on wall street including both working for Goldman sachs at some point in their careers. Dr. Costa lives in Asia at the moment and runs an independent hedge fund and Joseph lupin has most recently been involved in the music industry in Jamaica.
The blockchain is owned by those who participate in the fundraiser and those receiving the early stakeholders premine. Let me be clear: No Bank, No financial entity including Goldman Sachs has been allocated any amount of the premine. If they want a chunk then they have to buy it once the fundraiser starts like everyone else.
We have two people on our team who started their financial careers- as many thousands have done- at Goldman Sachs. They have both since left and started other ventures. In both cases those were hedge funds. Joe retired and moved to Jamaica to be in the music industry and came out of retirement to join us. Costa went to university of Edinburgh to study LCS's relationship to finance for a PhD in Quantitative Finance. He is now running a hedge fund in Kyrgyzstan as well as building a full clearing house in etherscript.
We have no relationship with Goldman Sachs nor are they an investor. I wouldn't take their money if offered. I have great respect for their knowledge of the financial industry as well as quality of talent, but no respect for their business practices or questionable conduct.
- (Q) There are 22 people listed in the post by Vitalik Buterin introducing the project. Who are the community liaisons for Bitcointalk or representatives that can help answer some of these community concerns and questions? These boys are girls can get a bit rabid from time to time, and it becomes really difficult for newcomers to get accurate information without knowing whose posts to look for.
- Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)
- (Q) This question comes from giladio_0 on Reddit. Why was the choice made to crowdfund this whooping amount outside of the due registration and regulatory processes such as the SEC or Canadian equivalent? What is the purpose of this? It will only instigate trouble with the regulators and jeopardize all of the investor's money, and the stability of the project.
- Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)
- (Q)
Ask them to make the case for why we need Proof of Work and the inflationary model of crypto-equity distribution? If Proof of Work is necessary for securing the blockchain, why aren't they going with a deflationary model which requires Ethers to be destroyed when spent to offset the justified inflation if it must be mined by Proof of Work?
- Pending Answer (or help me find a quote)
Again, please add to this list in bullet form in your posts if you care to, so that we can present these community concerns and questions and get the answers you're after. Obviously everyone posting is interested in the project, so please make your voice heard in a constructive way, for you to be able to make up your mind about supporting the project. QUESTION FORMAT (SO WE CAN SPOT IT)Make a post in the form of: (#) Your Question. I'll try and group them if possible. * NOTE: All these concerns, issues, and questions are reproduced verbatim. |
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Read the first post. 30000 BTC will go to the pocket of devs according to salary, bounty....
The thing I think people don't understand is that the everything I've read so far from the Ethereum guys indicates they have a long-term view. People don't seem to understand this. That money is going to be transparent and will go to the development of Ethereum in multiple programming languages, as well as applications and services on the platform. And from what I've read that's just the beginning. Vitalik talked about detailed spending plans that go all the way up to the hard cap. Of course, all of this is yet to be revealed, but that takes time to develop as well. The point is, would you rather have a pump and dump coin that has a few months outlook (if that), or something that tries to grow value over the long-term? That's my take so far anyway, by ignoring the FUD, and looking at what they've actually said. |
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