Several issues.

The claim that PoW is "inefficient" is economically naive, at least in the form presented here.  The exact cost per transaction is difficult to determine at the moment because of price fluctuations, but ultimately the efficiency of the network will settle to a value determined by the total value transferred over total cost of running the network. The cheeky claim that it "costs hundreds of time more than a credit card transaction" can hardly be taken serious if it is presented without any kind of calculation, as was done here.

Re: network security. PoW at the scale of the current Bitcoin network is de facto secure (no attack ever succeeded, no realistic attack vector that does not involve massive clandestine hardware production is known), and it is getting more secure each day as additional hashpower comes online. "Increased" security through PoS is an advantage that holds little weight then.

On the other hand, there are numerous disadvantages of PoS. The most significant ones I can think of:

Coin distribution by stake, instead of coin distribution by work. There is something intuitively unappealing about handing the highest rewards to the already largest holders of an asset, and there is something intuitively satisfying about rewarding those who "work the hardest". Don't take my word for it, ask around. This is probably the most basal reason why a majority of the Bitcoin community dislikes PoS.

Consensus forming in the case of competing chains. From a technical perspective, probably the strongest argument. Summarized in the well know form as "The trouble with Proof-of-stake is that there is nothing at stake" if there is a need to form a consensus which of two or more competing chains is the canonical one. I'm not informed enough on the current state of the discussione to know if there have been, generally accepted, solutions to the problem, but the entire problem is alien to PoW because hashpower/energy is a limited resource.

Which brings me to the final point: what some perceive as an "inefficient waste of energy" is, in they eyes of a number of Bitcoin users/investors the fundamental economical backing of the currency. Time will tell if there will be an upper limit to the hardware and energy cost supplied to the network (and that cost will certainly have to increase as total value transferred on the network increases), but setting up the currency-slash-network such that it requires some amount of energy to keep it running is an economic advantage, not disadvantage, because it provides a base valuation in the form of the work it takes to run the network.

tl;dr Bitcoiners prefer PoW. Deal with it.

Nice metaphor, I like it "picking up nickels in front of a steam roller"... but care to elaborate? "Total BTC float" as in... ?

just used it for the first time a few days ago.

wanted to look up reviews/trust ratings, and it's fucking hilarious to see US reviewers bashing them for everything, from importing cholera to orphanages to copyright infringement, and of course the entire site's one big scam.

in reality, it's just a merchant aggregator like ebay (or amazon marketplace), but the vitriolic dislike of ye olde world citizens against our new Chinese overlords spills over in moments like that, I suppose

I'm not above trading BTC comparably aggressive (after all, some of those profits then go into anon coins like XMR), but agreed on what you write here: Unless you trade rather small amounts (and can get in and out without slippage, and are nimble enough to jump back in on short notice), it makes little sense to trade the current swings that are largely secondary effects to XMR's older brother Bitcoin. Small correction maybe: It does make sense if you aren't attached to your XMR position, as in: if you're skimming off profits in USD only. If your goal is increasing an already non-trivial XMR stash, I find it hard to believe this can be achieved by swing trading, given the current market conditions.

Probably only has a chance if downwards momentum is keeping up, so over the next few days, I suppose.

But I'm kind of fishing in the dark here, that's why I'm asking the master

Bugger off, trolls. (= area3121, sevvero)


Possible target, luc?

Nobody other than you (and a few others, I guess) thinks the market "has" to do anything. Some of us just observe what it actually does, and think about what it is likely going to do. Kinda helps to be prepared for when it actually happens.


This however is gold:

Hey, Bitcoinwisdom

A quick question:

How do you calculate the aggregate (or average?) price of a currency on the frontpage, https://bitcoinwisdom.com/

Is it weighted by volume on each exchange? If so, volume of a period, or by trade? Or is it simply a non-weighted average of the last price on all exchanges?

That was you?! o_O

Fair enough. Because of peso, bolivar and numerous other reasons, I honestly hope that Bitcoin succeeds in the long-term.

I just don't think it's a given. I'm group 3, in that sense.

First: you sound angry. Nothing in scarsbergholden's post warrants that, in my opinion.

Second: my Euro denominated bank account hasn't lost more than 50% of its purchasing power in the last half year, as far as I can tell. So, in the short to mid term then, the Euro was a vastly better store of value than Bitcoin. Care to argue with those facts?

There are, extremely broadly speaking, three types of posters in here:

Those who are convinced Bitcoin is going nowhere but down, on any time scale. Trolls aside, that means they'll actively short to make money.

Those who are convinced Bitcoin can and must go up. Success of crypto as a global currency and store of value almost guaranteed, in the long run. They buy and buy and buy, and hope for the best.

And then there's those who look at it as an experiment. Could work. Could fail. Price fluctuations just represent that uncertainty. They trade in whatever way is appropriate at the time.


The problem is that the first group and the third group are most of the time conflated in here by those in the second group. But that's an unrelated problem :)

Then those who buy in without a bounce back will lose their capital to those who wait out longer. If this goes on long enough, it would indeed mean "Bitcoin is dead".

Hint: Bitcoin is not dead. We're trading at $423 per coin.

Are you implying I'm too dramatic?

(I am too dramatic, I guess )

I bolded the key sentence as well... Welcome to the forum

It can be hard sometimes not to feel like a huge bear with all the constant accusations from the rest of the bullish crowd that if you don't believe in $10k by December, you're a retard.

(and then you still have to draw a line between yourself and the actual bear trolls).

Agreed with that as well.

I wonder why so many people in here are so binary in their thinking: Bitcoin is a terrible store of value currently (and a highly speculative asset), a not-too-shabby medium of transfer, and absolutely not a unit of account. If things go well, it might be a store of value in the future, and the likelihood of that happening is exactly what we're collectively determining/discovering here, through the markets.

Sticky please. First post everyone should read who enters this forum.

then how come some people are sitting this one out rather calmly, more or less all in usd? pure luck?

Problem is, it's simply not true. In fact, that post is pretty much contradicting itself:

>There are plenty of people who bought in back in 2011/12 that are still up on their investments.

Exactly. After price dropped from $32 to $2. And people bought back anyway. Less people, maybe, but they stuck around.

In all likelihood, that's what's going to happen again this time... More despair. More people leaving for good. Some staying around. Eventually, a new rally. New people coming around because of the rally. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

(And, of course, as always the non-zero chance that this is after all the last bubble, and the experiment failed. There's a reason why there's a substantial growth potential in price - because there's a substantial risk that it'll all go tits up.)

Oooh, good one.


Annecdote time: I told my gf about that quote and its context a while ago, and she got really sad about it.

Now, I sometimes just casually drop the line "I'm quickly going to do some groceries, it may be some time", and her eyes almost water up when I say that

(yes, I'm a psycho)

Are you an alt of a much older member