Bitcoin Savings & Trust - Money Returned List (One reported - CLOSED).

[unclescrooge]

+1

[Matthew N. Wright]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

Damn good post.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Do mexican hitmen accept btc ?

[ErebusBat]

Do mexican hitmen accept btc ?

This is not the place for threats.  Quoted to preserve stupidity.

[Piper67]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

Damn good post.

Personally, I'm not against any and all forms of government intervention. But sadly I can't think of a single government in the world that has been able to legislate stupidity out of the population... so in the case it wouldn't have worked anyway.

[unclescrooge]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

Damn good post.

Personally, I'm not against any and all forms of government intervention. But sadly I can't think of a single government in the world that has been able to legislate stupidity out of the population... so in the case it wouldn't have worked anyway.

And why would wanna legislate on the stupidity of people? Because you know better? You know that Pirate is a scam and those who invest in him are looser? Your line of reasonning is one of the main reason why governments fail everytime. Because of I-know-better-what-s-good-for-you people.

Actually the best solution against frivolous investments would be liberty, and its counterpart: responsibility.

[Piper67]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

Damn good post.

Personally, I'm not against any and all forms of government intervention. But sadly I can't think of a single government in the world that has been able to legislate stupidity out of the population... so in the case it wouldn't have worked anyway.

And why would wanna legislate on the stupidity of people? Because you know better? You know that Pirate is a scam and those who invest in him are looser? Your line of reasonning is one of the main reason why governments fail everytime. Because of I-know-better-what-s-good-for-you people.

Actually the best solution against frivolous investments would be liberty, and its counterpart: responsibility.

Actually, yeah, on a number of fronts, I do know better. But as I said, though some have come close, no government has ever been able to wipe out stupidity.

[unclescrooge]

But as I said, though some have come close, no government has ever been able to wipe out stupidity.

You really missed my point.

[pauljr8]

Reputation and character are the indicators that people should be relying on, not rules and regulations. Until we put a premium on those no tactic will protect us. Shame is a great deterrent to people considering offending others.

[Piper67]

But as I said, though some have come close, no government has ever been able to wipe out stupidity.

You really missed my point.

I didn't miss your point, I just chose to not take it too seriously.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Replace BTC with a foreign fiat currency, BTCST with a fraudulent investment fund the officer has never heard of, how does this change the situation? Nobody expects you to keep certificates of fiat based securities at home either, all trading is online nowadays. He'll do the paper work and since the damage is high, pass it on to a financial crimes department.

Exactly.  This idea that the entire Police force of an entire nation consists of the cop from the Simpsons is just asinine.  People do realize that the FBI for example has a internet crimes division.   They employ data analysts, statisticians, forensic accountants, computer experts, etc.  FinCEN deals with ponzi schemes and other "investment" scams everday.

Since the logical jump from BTC to fiat seems insurmountable even among some bitcoin users lets replace BTC with Gold.  Imagine Pirate ran a Ponzi where "investors" were encouraged to mail in gold and would be credited the amount of grams deposited and interested owed.  They could get their weekly dividends mailed out to them and even request a withdraw of all gold owed and be sent other investors deposits.  Now Gold isn't money but it does have value.  Police do investigate theft of things which have value. 

The idea that Bitcoins have no value and therefore no crime has occured is just silly. No judge is going to rule that way.  Sex for Bitcoins = legal loophole.  Bitcoins have no value therefore the prostitute isn't engaging in prostitution.   Ransom for bitcoins = not a randsom just free speech.  Bitcoins have no value under the law remember.

[Bascule]

And why would wanna legislate on the stupidity of people?

You don't want stupidity to be outlawed because you know you'd be imprisoned for life.

[unclescrooge]

And why would wanna legislate on the stupidity of people?

You don't want stupidity to be outlawed because you know you'd be imprisoned for life.

Thanks for making your point. You feel better now?

[zyk]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

Applause!!

Cheers Zyk

[DeathAndTaxes]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

However governments exist and it is naive to think you can opt-out.

With no govt to protect him, someone stealing $5M would likely end up getting tortured to death unless he revealed where the money is (and then probably killed anyways in a very unpleasant way).  People get assaulted and killed for a lot less then stealing $5M.  The thief's property, assets, home, kids, wife would also be at risk of seizure by "investors" who combined have a lot more guns then he has.  Under such a scenario that RISK acts as a deterrent.  Scammer is less inclined to scam when there is a real consequence (and no a scammer tag on bitcointalk.org is hardly a consequence for gaining $5M in wealth in a couple months).

However while the victims can "opt-out" and pretend the government doesn't exist.  Pirate can choose to "opt-in" and use the very same govt to protect him from any consequence for this actions.   A band of investors tracking him down to "negotiate" a settlement would likely find themselves arrested by the very govt they are pretending doesn't exist.  Saying you won't use the legal system in place, as some purist masturbation exercise may make you feel good but it won't accomplish anything.  It will simply encourage more scams as scammers realize they have nothing to lose.

[muyuu]

Bitcoin should be able to stand on its own. Calling for governmental regulation and/or oversight is the typical knee-jerk reaction for people who feel or have been slighted in their business dealings. We have the talent and ability to overcome these problems before bringing widespread attention to what BTC is instead of what it  could be. Government intrusion into any area of our lives always results in a loss of liberty and could make BTC too much trouble to deal with and has never protected anyone from those people of poor character. The entire USA was ripped off by the collusion of the US government and the financial sector. Government is not the answer; we are.

However governments exist and it is naive to think you can opt-out.

With no govt to protect him, someone stealing $5M would likely end up getting tortured to death unless he revealed where the money is (and then probably killed anyways in a very unpleasant way).  People get assaulted and killed for a lot less then stealing $5M.  The thief's property, assets, home, kids, wife would also be at risk of seizure by "investors" who combined have a lot more guns then he has.  Under such a scenario that RISK acts as a deterrent.  Scammer is less inclined to scam when there is a real consequence (and no a scammer tag on bitcointalk.org is hardly a consequence for gaining $5M in wealth in a couple months).

However while the victims can "opt-out" and pretend the government doesn't exist.  Pirate can choose to "opt-in" and use the very same govt to protect him from any consequence for this actions.   A band of investors tracking him down to "negotiate" a settlement would likely find themselves arrested by the very govt they are pretending doesn't exist.  Saying you won't use the legal system in place, as some purist masturbation exercise may make you feel good but it won't accomplish anything.  It will simply encourage more scams as scammers realize they have nothing to lose.

+1 much needed realism.

[AndrewBUD]

Has anyone received their coins back? any reasonable amount over say 100 BTC ?

[Matthew N. Wright]

And why would wanna legislate on the stupidity of people?

You don't want stupidity to be outlawed because you know you'd be imprisoned for life.

I lol'ed.

[unclescrooge]

And why would wanna legislate on the stupidity of people?

You don't want stupidity to be outlawed because you know you'd be imprisoned for life.

I lol'ed.

put "criminal activity" and "Bitcoin" together in a sentence, and you have a news-worthy story.

It's pretty hard to put "legitimate activity" and bitcoin into the same sentence. Bitcoin has Silk road, gambling (evading US laws), and ponzi schemes. Is there anything legit?

The prize could also go down. Too many people know about bitcoin and using it. It's not a geek only 'currency' anymore. so there are a lot of stupid people using it.

Bitcoin is limited. Therefore more people using it = higher price per bitcoin. This is exactly why the price will go up (by enormous factors) in the long term, regardless of any temporary spikes and drops (which are just incidental market hype and panic movements).

Why would more people use bitcoin?

Hi. I'm very bearish on bitcoin. Does that make me a troll?

Yeah, I lol too. Troll's got to troll right

[BorderBits]

 
People do realize that the FBI for example has a internet crimes division.   They employ data analysts, statisticians, forensic accountants, computer experts, etc.  FinCEN deals with ponzi schemes and other "investment" scams everday.

They mostly track pedophiles who use bitcoin to buy kiddie porn on Silk Road.