Who do you think Matthew's backer is for the 10k btc bet?

[556j]

If I want to throw $20 away, it's none of your business.

Normally I would agree, but Ponzi isn't a victimless crime.

If I see you spamming forums like crazy about how everyone that thinks pirate is a ponzi is an idiot, a fool, has some agenda, ect. like imsaguy, BurtW, Goat, and all those guys yes I will think you are a scammer and a shill. Because if Pirate turns out to be a ponzi that's exactly what those people are. All of them mentioned (I believe) they "figured out" what pirates business model was. So again if it was a ponzi they themselves have admitted to knowingly participation in a scam, correct?

I'm totally against any sort of regulation of course. Strong supporter or Darwinism. But at the same time people can say whatever the fuck they want. Basically you are trying to regulate speech.

See what I mean? This kind of talk has got to stop.

Why does it have to stop? If you don't like it ignore me. I can say this sort of thing about real world corporations as well. In fact I think Wal-mart is toxic to the entire planet, do you think I should be sued for having an opinion? That I should be silenced? It would never work anyway, unless admins here go on some massive banning spree. "Is this post MNW approved? No? BANNED." good luck with that.

If what I say is so unreasonable I only hurt my own credibility. No one else. Its basically Darwinism in action. If I want to be taken seriously I have to watch what I say (or produce results). We don't need you trying to nanny convos and telling us what needs to be stopped here. The funny part is this is your argument about "investing" in pirate, that "investors" (actually lenders) are only hurting themselves, but it's not true. Someone always gets burned in ponzi, a lot of times the lender themselves but also anyone that came after them. All victims are lenders, yes. But not all Lenders are victims (early entry, early exit) So while in general I agree with your position in this case you are missing a crucial element.

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[Vladimir]

My position is that once Occam's razor strongly suggests that some investment is a ponzi scheme, the burden of proof is on alleged ponzi operator to prove otherwise. And again demands to prove a negative (i.e. non existence of a viable biz model) is just a logical fallacy known as Ad Ignorantiam

So any business that operates now has to show you their books and operating procedures as soon as you question them? Okay, what if someone questions the Bitcoin Magazine. Are we going to show everyone all of our financial documents to prove we're not a sham? Who's business is it?

"Oh but matthew, we're not forcing anyone to invest in us!"

True! And neither is anyone else. Message to the community: Please be vocal, be less -abusive- about your voice and everyone will be happy. Harassment of people is unacceptable. If you try to tell them that you believe something is a ponzi, and they don't listen, let them lose their money. This is bitcoin, not USD. We have some freedoms. When you're leaving people alone to do what they want with their money, stop shouting at them from across the street "Shills!". This entire issue of mine is the -tone- of the community, not the concern.

Matthew, when I talk to investors I make it extremely transparent to them what it is exactly we do and how, how much it costs and what are our expectations of revenue and that there are risks involved etc and I answer all questions and I do not promise any return in immediately foreseeable future. And yes I will show potential investors our books if needed (subject to some conditions), there is nothing wrong with that. Moreover, we do not accept any investments from anyone who is not either a high net worth individual or a sophisticated investor and who ought to understand exactly what they are doing when they invest in unlisted shares of a private limited company.

Moreover, you completely ignored the first part of relevant sentence "once Occam's razor strongly suggests that some investment is a ponzi scheme...". Are you suggesting that Bitcoin Magazine looks like a duck? I'd say then that you bring up lame duck arguments.

The tone of the community is an issue, indeed. Gullibility and naivety of majority of posting population here is astonishing. Complete lack of basic understanding of how to present a coherent or sound argument and inability to recognise trivial logical fallacies are incredible as well.

P.S. Matthew, say "unkle".

[Bitcoin Oz]

That said, just because we don't know what's happening doesn't mean it is a scam with 100% certainty, and accusations should be made accordingly.

,
Ok, so if we find out this was a ponzi with 100% certainty, do you think all the FUD being spread was unwarranted?

Considering it hit all the red flags (which is the only way to detect a ponzi, and as far as I know there are no examples of legit businesses hitting them like that) and considering what's at stake?


Do you also scold people who passionately warn others to encrypt their wallets, backup private keys, and maintain control of their own BTC?

I mean, you don't know for sure they're going to get hacked or have a hard drive crash, after all.

Its hard to tell fanatical religious extremists that God might not exist simply because there is no way to prove otherwise. Matthew is seemingly running a campaign against fanaticism.

We know where extreme beliefs lead to in human history. Protip: it doesnt end well.

[Matthew N. Wright]

That said, just because we don't know what's happening doesn't mean it is a scam with 100% certainty, and accusations should be made accordingly.

,
Ok, so if we find out this was a ponzi with 100% certainty, do you think all the FUD being spread was unwarranted?

Considering it hit all the red flags (which is the only way to detect a ponzi, and as far as I know there are no examples of legit businesses hitting them like that) and considering what's at stake?


Do you also scold people who passionately warn others to encrypt their wallets, backup private keys, and maintain control of their own BTC?

I mean, you don't know for sure they're going to get hacked or have a hard drive crash, after all.

Its hard to tell fanatical religious extremists that God might not exist simply because there is no way to prove otherwise. Matthew is seemingly running a campaign against fanaticism.

We know where extreme beliefs lead to in human history. Protip: it doesnt end well.

Ironically, I could be called a fanatic by running the campaign herp derp

[Fluttershy]

pirateat40

Think about it. He get's to keep the half million and pays out the 10k to the "told you so"s.

Perfect symmetry.

This is exactly why I just posted a condition in Matthew's gambling thread. If Pirate and Matt are colluding to run a giant shell game on the user base, we will refuse the demands that we be the ones to suffer from such an elaborate con.

I also want people monitoring all exchanges between Matt, Pirate and any 3rd parties that could be on board.

[Matthew N. Wright]

pirateat40

Think about it. He get's to keep the half million and pays out the 10k to the "told you so"s.

Perfect symmetry.

This is exactly why I just posted a condition in Matthew's gambling thread. If Pirate and Matt are colluding to run a giant shell game on the user base, we will refuse the demands that we be the ones to suffer from such an elaborate con.

I also want people monitoring all exchanges between Matt, Pirate and any 3rd parties that could be on board.

Good call! Monitor away random SA troll! And keep those conspiracy theories coming!

[bitcoiners]

Who do you think Matthew's backer is for the 10k btc bet?

I would hope his anus.  My anus backs me everywhere I go.  Without it, I'd only be a dick.

[silverbox]

So Matt who did you get the cassius coins from that your going to be using to pay out the bet with??

[michaelmclees]

pirateat40

Think about it. He get's to keep the half million and pays out the 10k to the "told you so"s.

Perfect symmetry.

Thanks for the good idea! I'm gonna ask him if he's interested.

UPDATE: He declined and no action has happened since I asked. I guess he's not interested in backing up my silly bets.

Can you confirm that you have that much BTC?  Sign an address with 10k in it?

[Matthew N. Wright]

That said, just because we don't know what's happening doesn't mean it is a scam with 100% certainty, and accusations should be made accordingly.

,
Ok, so if we find out this was a ponzi with 100% certainty, do you think all the FUD being spread was unwarranted?

Considering it hit all the red flags (which is the only way to detect a ponzi, and as far as I know there are no examples of legit businesses hitting them like that) and considering what's at stake?


Do you also scold people who passionately warn others to encrypt their wallets, backup private keys, and maintain control of their own BTC?

I mean, you don't know for sure they're going to get hacked or have a hard drive crash, after all.

Backing up your wallet doesn't harm another person's business btw.

[556j]

Backing up your wallet doesn't harm another person's business btw.

If what was said on forums about pirate started to hurt his business, he could have done many number of things to prove otherwise. When asking for millions of dollars from lenders this is a basic duty. But yet pirate refused all options. Locked his thread. Started his own IRC channel where he could control the discussion. Every one of his actions from the beginning followed classic ponzi behavior. It was not unreasonable for people to continue to warn others. What do you think of the other people that were encouraging deposits very aggressively? Surely you didn't miss the massive spam fest trying to drown out the naysayers. That behavior is so much more damaging than what you are complaining about.

How much harm do you think pirate will have done to the community if he does abscond? The damage will be much much worse than if he was legit and "trolls" really did kill his business. And again he have many options to silence the trolls but did not.

Micon explained this to you on his show. If I tried to make the claim Bitcoin Magazine was a scam people would just think I am an idiot. Actually some people were claiming that in some other thread, but it quickly and naturally devolved from scam to just being late on issues. And most rationale people would understand any new business is going to have growing pains and unexpected delays. It's pretty common for print issues and you guys have been doing great all things considered. Any forum is going to have massive trolls, you can't do anything to fix that (even betting). You can't let that crap get to you.

[Matthew N. Wright]

Backing up your wallet doesn't harm another person's business btw.

If what was said on forums about pirate started to hurt his business, he could have done many number of things to prove otherwise. When asking for millions of dollars from lenders this is a basic duty. But yet pirate refused all options. Locked his thread. Started his own IRC channel where he could control the discussion. Every one of his actions from the beginning followed classic ponzi behavior. It was not unreasonable for people to continue to warn others. What do you think of the other people that were encouraging deposits very aggressively? Surely you didn't miss the massive spam fest trying to drown out the naysayers. That behavior is so much more damaging than what you are complaining about.

How much harm do you think pirate will have done to the community if he does abscond? The damage will be much much worse than if he was legit and "trolls" really did kill his business. And again he have many options to silence the trolls but did not.

Micon explained this to you on his show. If I tried to make the claim Bitcoin Magazine was a scam people would just think I am an idiot. Actually some people were claiming that in some other thread, but it quickly and naturally devolved from scam to just being late on issues. And most rationale people would understand any new business is going to have growing pains and unexpected delays. It's pretty common for print issues and you guys have been doing great all things considered. Any forum is going to have massive trolls, you can't do anything to fix that (even betting). You can't let that crap get to you.

This makes sense more or less, but doesn't exactly cover the reasoning I had. What you say is correct, but there are other arguments, including the "walks like a duck" fallacy, benefit of the doubt, discerning between educating about and crusading against investments, etc. let's talk about this more when the bet is over as it will probably help to understand more irregardless of outcome. I'll mull it over what you said though (and actually I -did- miss the part where Pirate and investors were being aggressive. Before I made the bet, I was only seeing the opposite. Do you have any threads as examples?)

[556j]

Do you have any threads as examples?

attempt to discredit by mocking, imsaguy was the most childish of the bunch, he did that all over the forums, I don't want to keep looking for all the threads he shit in since July at least.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91661.msg1024343#msg1024343 (keep scrolling)

BurtW takes on the tactic. Posts that he knows what pirates business model is. Starts bet in gambling forums to instill confidence in potential marks.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg1005868#msg1005868
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91252.msg1065371#msg1065371
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=97094.msg1069337#msg1069337


Goat did same spamming "ponzi" everywhere mocking people. He posts too much for me to find them now, most of it was mid-late july. and Stuff like this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91252.msg1064948#msg1064948

[michaelmclees]

Matthew.  I doubt that you have 10,000 BTC.  Can you please post an address signed message here proving that you do?

[mobodick]

That said, just because we don't know what's happening doesn't mean it is a scam with 100% certainty, and accusations should be made accordingly.

,
Ok, so if we find out this was a ponzi with 100% certainty, do you think all the FUD being spread was unwarranted?

Considering it hit all the red flags (which is the only way to detect a ponzi, and as far as I know there are no examples of legit businesses hitting them like that) and considering what's at stake?


Do you also scold people who passionately warn others to encrypt their wallets, backup private keys, and maintain control of their own BTC?

I mean, you don't know for sure they're going to get hacked or have a hard drive crash, after all.

Its hard to tell fanatical religious extremists that God might not exist simply because there is no way to prove otherwise. Matthew is seemingly running a campaign against fanaticism.

We know where extreme beliefs lead to in human history. Protip: it doesnt end well.

Nah, you can't just go ahead and compare this situation to religion.
In religion there are no clear signs that anything special exists beyond fantasy and makebelief and projection of fears and uncertainty.
But in this case all the arrows point to a scam of some sort, not nessesarily a ponzi, but still the nubers don't add up.
In fact, it's a bit like evolution. You can't see it happening, but there are corners of information that all define this big structure. It's just that the lights are off and we can't clearly see what kind of scam this is.
But it either is a scam or is made to look like a scam (which is a scam in intself).
Anyway, this is how it looks.

[Matthew N. Wright]

But it either is a scam or is made to look like a scam (which is a scam in intself).

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, we've come full circle. Even when it's not a scam, it's a scam!

[buttcoin]

that weird asian teenager he follows around?

Zhou Tong? He's in Australia. Long time no see buttcoins. How come you're not pumping out any more comedy?

The slow transition from funny to sad.

And since Tradehill bought my site and went bust I don't have anymore funding!

[SaltySpitoon]

If hes going to have a backer, he is going to have a backer. In that case, doesn't that mean Matthew's bet is more reliable? In that case not only can you hold him responsible should he lose, but you can also hold his backer, who if there is one, will probably turn out to be a recognized name, as they are holding 10K BTC.

Why I'm posting? I don't know, I'm pretty bored. I'm not invested in pirate, I'm not invested in Matthew, and I haven't taken anyone's bet, because at this point, its all just a craps shoot. Some people believe in pirate, some don't. Some are blissfully optimistic because they don't want to realize that they MAY have lost their money, and some are just pessimistic looking for an I told you so situation. Instead of constantly discussing whether some secret bitcoin conspiracy is going on, can't we just wait until pirate is out of time, or Matthew had won/lost his bet, and find out for sure?

[Matthew N. Wright]

Instead of constantly discussing whether some secret bitcoin conspiracy is going on, can't we just wait until pirate is out of time, or Matthew had won/lost his bet, and find out for sure?

Haha you must be new here.

[mobodick]

But it either is a scam or is made to look like a scam (which is a scam in intself).

And there you have it ladies and gentlemen, we've come full circle. Even when it's not a scam, it's a scam!

Or is it?....