How to get free Bitcoin by exploiting a DASH InstantX

[FryMaple]

Step 1:

• Get 4 computers running dash with the full blockchain downloaded.
• 2 of the computers should have the same wallet file, with the funds you intend to double spend.

Step 2:

• This is where it will cost you some money. The dash hashrate is currently < 100GH/s. You'll have to spend enough money to have over 50% of that. There are currently about 13.5GH/s for X11 available on betarigs, and some on leaserig. Renting all of them for 24 hours would be a good start. You could pool your money with friends and purchase enough hashing power, the payoff would be worth it.
• Once you have enough hash power, connect 3 of your computers together (one that has funds in it, and the other two) and begin mining. The last one, with the duplicate wallet file, should be connected to the main network.

Step 3:

• Since you have over 50% of the network hashrate, you will eventually mine a few blocks ahead of the main dash network.
• When you are even just 3 blocks ahead, send all of your funds from your computer connected to the main dash network using InstantX. It will be confirmed after only 1 block on the dash main network. I recommend sending it to something like shapeshift.io, as they will immediately send you an equivalent BTC amount.

Step 4:

• Since InstantX confirms after only 1 block, it would be much easier to attack than coins that require many blocks for a transaction. This is what makes it so dangerous. Immediately connect your other computer with the duplicate wallet file to the main network. Voila! The network found a longer chain, and will use it instead. You never sent those Dash!

What to get out of this:

The network will ALWAYS use the LONGEST chain and conform to it. Any conflicting tx's or blocks in the SHORTER chain will be DISCARDED.

This is why confirming a transaction after 1 proof of work confirmation is so dangerous. There is no way to know that the masternode is on the longest chain! If another, longer chain is found, it will immediately switch to it and invalidate any conflicts.

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network. However, that is why requiring a decent number of confirmations is so important. It would be much more difficult to mine 20 blocks ahead of the dash network than 2 or 3.

[sirslayer]

really?? and you actually have done this??

[MisO69]

So when the longer chain is accepted by the network as the proper chain, do the dash coins in the shapeshift.io wallet just disappear?

[FryMaple]

So when the longer chain is accepted by the network as the proper chain, do the dash coins in the shapeshift.io wallet just disappear?

When shapeshifts' node encounters a node with a longer chain, all conflicts will be invalidated automatically. So yes.

If you want to try it yourself, set up two nodes and connect them to each other but not the main network and begin mining. Since you don't have a huge hashrate, you won't be mining as many blocks as quickly as the main network. Send coins from one node to the other. Connect to the main network and watch the transaction be erased.

[GTO911]

Lol, lets pool together and fork this scam

[Prosperityforall]

Step 1:

• Get 4 computers running dash with the full blockchain downloaded.
• 2 of the computers should have the same wallet file, with the funds you intend to double spend.

Step 2:

• This is where it will cost you some money. The dash hashrate is currently < 100GH/s. You'll have to spend enough money to have over 50% of that. There are currently about 13.5GH/s for X11 available on betarigs, and some on leaserig. Renting all of them for 24 hours would be a good start. You could pool your money with friends and purchase enough hashing power, the payoff would be worth it.
• Once you have enough hash power, connect 3 of your computers together (one that has funds in it, and the other two) and begin mining. The last one, with the duplicate wallet file, should be connected to the main network.

Step 3:

• Since you have over 50% of the network hashrate, you will eventually mine a few blocks ahead of the main dash network.
• When you are even just 3 blocks ahead, send all of your funds from your computer connected to the main dash network using InstantX. It will be confirmed after only 1 block on the dash main network. I recommend sending it to something like shapeshift.io, as they will immediately send you an equivalent BTC amount.

Step 4:

• Since InstantX confirms after only 1 block, it would be much easier to attack than coins that require many blocks for a transaction. This is what makes it so dangerous. Immediately connect your other computer with the duplicate wallet file to the main network. Voila! The network found a longer chain, and will use it instead. You never sent those Dash!

What to get out of this:

The network will ALWAYS use the LONGEST chain and conform to it. Any conflicting tx's or blocks in the SHORTER chain will be DISCARDED.

This is why confirming a transaction after 1 proof of work confirmation is so dangerous. There is no way to know that the masternode is on the longest chain! If another, longer chain is found, it will immediately switch to it and invalidate any conflicts.

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network. However, that is why requiring a decent number of confirmations is so important. It would be much more difficult to mine 20 blocks ahead of the dash network than 2 or 3.

So Dash's Instantx is just one big scam then. Dash is a complete joke.

[FryMaple]

My point is that it is EXTREMELY dangerous to only require 1 block confirmations on a coin. There is no "official" blockchain in any coin. The longest chain is always accepted as the valid one. If a transaction is locked and spent in 1 confirm, then a node encounters a chain 1 block longer without these funds being spent (or being sent to someone else, e.g. double spent), then it will accept that one as the valid chain.

[generalizethis]

Step 1:

• Get 4 computers running dash with the full blockchain downloaded.
• 2 of the computers should have the same wallet file, with the funds you intend to double spend.

Step 2:

• This is where it will cost you some money. The dash hashrate is currently < 100GH/s. You'll have to spend enough money to have over 50% of that. There are currently about 13.5GH/s for X11 available on betarigs, and some on leaserig. Renting all of them for 24 hours would be a good start. You could pool your money with friends and purchase enough hashing power, the payoff would be worth it.
• Once you have enough hash power, connect 3 of your computers together (one that has funds in it, and the other two) and begin mining. The last one, with the duplicate wallet file, should be connected to the main network.

Step 3:

• Since you have over 50% of the network hashrate, you will eventually mine a few blocks ahead of the main dash network.
• When you are even just 3 blocks ahead, send all of your funds from your computer connected to the main dash network using InstantX. It will be confirmed after only 1 block on the dash main network. I recommend sending it to something like shapeshift.io, as they will immediately send you an equivalent BTC amount.

Step 4:

• Since InstantX confirms after only 1 block, it would be much easier to attack than coins that require many blocks for a transaction. This is what makes it so dangerous. Immediately connect your other computer with the duplicate wallet file to the main network. Voila! The network found a longer chain, and will use it instead. You never sent those Dash!

What to get out of this:

The network will ALWAYS use the LONGEST chain and conform to it. Any conflicting tx's or blocks in the SHORTER chain will be DISCARDED.

This is why confirming a transaction after 1 proof of work confirmation is so dangerous. There is no way to know that the masternode is on the longest chain! If another, longer chain is found, it will immediately switch to it and invalidate any conflicts.

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network. However, that is why requiring a decent number of confirmations is so important. It would be much more difficult to mine 20 blocks ahead of the dash network than 2 or 3.

So Dash's Instantx is just one big scam then. Dash is a complete joke.

Instamining x-coin and calling it an accident was the joke. Renaming it Dark and claiming it's anonymous without mathematical proof was the stand-up routine. Stealing a dev, renaming the coin again, and then claiming instant transactions without mentioning the security concerns is going on a world comedy tour with an HBO "live on Broadway" special as the finally. Thanks for all the laughs Evan, we'll miss you.

[bitpop]

Lol shitcoin gonna shitcoin

[oblox]

I'm still not seeing where over half the hashing power is available to rent to perform a 51%.

[bitpop]

I'm still not seeing where over half the hashing power is available to rent to perform a 51%.

Slightly increasing the rate will get people selling their hashing

[oblox]

I'm still not seeing where over half the hashing power is available to rent to perform a 51%.

Slightly increasing the rate will get people selling their hashing

You could make the argument that would always be the case for any coin's security. If an attacker is willing to "pay up" in terms of premium to rent hash, then it's just a matter of finding the threshold requirement that entices enough miners to rent out their rigs (better for them because they are making the premium over straight up mining and better for you because you are accumulating hash). I'm still not buying the practicality of renting that much hash, although the logistics behind taking advantage of the 1 POW requirement seem plausible at first glance.

[bitpop]

I'm still not seeing where over half the hashing power is available to rent to perform a 51%.

Slightly increasing the rate will get people selling their hashing

You could make the argument that would always be the case for any coin's security. If an attacker is willing to "pay up" in terms of premium to rent hash, then it's just a matter of finding the threshold requirement that entices enough miners to rent out their rigs (better for them because they are making the premium over straight up mining and better for you because you are accumulating hash). I'm still not buying the practicality of renting that much hash, although the logistics behind taking advantage of the 1 POW requirement seem plausible at first glance.

No one can afford bitcoins hash, if they could they'd be building their own farm which has always been speculated about, x11 uses gpu which is easier to buy

[tokyoghetto]

would be nice if the alt-coin community could pool funds together to launch this type of attack.

In the name of science of course.

[oblox]

I'm still not seeing where over half the hashing power is available to rent to perform a 51%.

Slightly increasing the rate will get people selling their hashing

You could make the argument that would always be the case for any coin's security. If an attacker is willing to "pay up" in terms of premium to rent hash, then it's just a matter of finding the threshold requirement that entices enough miners to rent out their rigs (better for them because they are making the premium over straight up mining and better for you because you are accumulating hash). I'm still not buying the practicality of renting that much hash, although the logistics behind taking advantage of the 1 POW requirement seem plausible at first glance.

No one can afford bitcoins hash, if they could they'd be building their own farm which has always been speculated about, x11 uses gpu which is easier to buy

Wrong. Banks (and other financial institutions), governments, billionaires (single or colluding millionaires) for example all could if they desired to (not saying they ever would, but that's an entirely different topic). The whole argument against the practical side of performing a 51% attack are the resources that get expended in doing so would do better contributing to the network in a positive means vs trying to double spend in x window of time. Even going back to Dash, you're still in a position where you need to find a service willing to exchange what would be a substantial amount of BTC or other valuable good/service (given the amount of BTC needed to rent all that hash) to justify attempting an attack in the first place. Now, if you are attacking without regard to profit, again, that's different. As it relates directly to Shapeshift, looks to be less than 5 BTC worth at a given exchange rate--hardly worthy of renting all that hash.

...and yes, it's always going to be easier to attack coins that have fractions of the network size BTC has (that's a given).

[toknormal]

Whatever the merits of this hypothetical attack, it's a problem I'd rather have than not have and it's one that all other cryptocurrencies wish they had.

The only reason they don't have it is because they're stuck with mono-functional networks where everything's got to be the worst-of-all-worlds kludge compromise.

 • Bitcoin can't do scaleability so it has to do bloat instead cos all it has to work with is blocksize.

 • Cryptonote can't do fungibility so it has to do invisibility instead, thereby condemning itself to a future of low confidence, scams, heists and subversion cos the blockchain's no longer publicly auditable.

 • And nobody can do fast confirmations so they have to do low blocktimes instead thereby ending up with loads of orphaned blocks.

The obvious answer to all these problems is decentralised functional diversification while keeping everything at a high level of redundancy.

[GTO911]

Where are the Darkcoin/Dash sheep now? No dumb justifications?

[coinmaster222]

I know where this topic is going lol but you would have to own 51% of the staking coins in an attack on a POS coin like CRAVE.Very unlikely.For the likes of Bitcoin it is now virtually impossible to perform a 51 attack a Government could not do it never mind some individuals

[hussar]

I know where this topic is going lol but you would have to own 51% of the staking coins in an attack on a POS coin like CRAVE.Very unlikely.For the likes of Bitcoin it is now virtually impossible to perform a 51 attack a Government could not do it never mind some individuals

CRAVE dev already acknowledged this https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=997356.msg11113415#msg11113415

[jasemoney]

OK!
so who ends up with the money, obviously you broadcast 2 transactions. would first payment to your 4th wallet end up being included in a block in the the future since its out there in other mempools, what about the 2nd over to "shapeshift"
when do broadcast transactions get tossed out of the mempool, when theyre included in a block?

We deal with mini-forks all day long in POS coins, orphans etc. you can respend on a pos coin after 1 confirm. I havent seen an army of pitchforks lifted against this. wouldnt it cause the same issue?

[FryMaple]

OK!
so who ends up with the money, obviously you broadcast 2 transactions. would first payment to your 4th wallet end up being included in a block in the the future since its out there in other mempools, what about the 2nd over to "shapeshift"
when do broadcast transactions get tossed out of the mempool, when theyre included in a block?

We deal with mini-forks all day long in POS coins, orphans etc. you can respend on a pos coin after 1 confirm. I havent seen an army of pitchforks lifted against this. wouldnt it cause the same issue?

You end up with BTC and your original dash wallet. Shapeshift ends up with nothing.

Yes they leave the mempool when they are accepted.

This mini-fork issue is exactly the reason you require many confirms before you can spend coins. It doesn't even have to be an attack to find 1 block it didn't know about and cancel your mined block. Requiring only 1 block confirmation is very dangerous.

[Brilliantrocket]

Put in a ton of work and investment to possibly get a reward that won't even cover the investment? Anyone with a brain will require multiple confirmations for large transactions. All you've done here is show that this attack would be a waste of time.

[kaene]

Every time I find a new method to get free Bitcoin, the first thing I do is to create a new forum account and publish it publicly, I mean, who would keep secretly a working money printer that works?

[cloudboy]

Every time I find a new method to get free Bitcoin, the first thing I do is to create a new forum account and publish it publicly, I mean, who would keep secretly a working money printer that works?

Lol Wtf Maybe he doesn't want to steal peoples money

[kaene]

Every time I find a new method to get free Bitcoin, the first thing I do is to create a new forum account and publish it publicly, I mean, who would keep secretly a working money printer that works?

Lol Wtf Maybe he doesn't want to steal peoples money

And that's why he made it public ... with a new account ... 

[cakir]

This topic made me laugh

It looks like this guy suggests to send bitcoin from testnet to normal blockchain
if you mine offline you'll fork the chain by yourself, it's not gonna matter if you use instantx or not. Main chain doesn't recognize your offline mined coins

[Jeff8247]

LOL trolls at it again. Nice try guys!

[eduffield]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

[FryMaple]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network.

Why did you change my quote? Are you saying Dash doesn't accept the longest blockchain?

[eduffield]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network.

Why did you change my quote? Are you saying Dash doesn't accept the longest blockchain?

Correct. If you get a successful lock on a transaction, conflicting blocks are outright rejected.

Read the code here:
https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2849

You realize we have a testnet with very low hashrate? You could try this, Feel free.

[generalizethis]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network.

Why did you change my quote? Are you saying Dash doesn't accept the longest blockchain?

Correct. If you get a successful lock on a transaction, conflicting blocks are outright rejected.

Read the code here:
https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2849

You realize we have a testnet with very low hashrate? You could try this, Feel free.

Did you use a testnet when you accidentally mined all those coins? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=999886.100

[astrobitcoin]

lol seems like you are not able to continue discussion and start asking the first off topic crap that comes in your mind, really mature and great arguments

[generalizethis]

lol seems like you are not able to continue discussion and start asking the first off topic crap that comes in your mind, really mature and great arguments

Actually, he's the one who did the mining, so when he pops his head out on a thread, I want to publicly confront him and get a straight answer-- I've heard from his apologist, I want to hear it straight from him.

[toknormal]

I want to publicly confront him

LoL !

You should get yourself a uniform  

(And start with yourself for promoting bookkeeping software as money)

[generalizethis]

I want to publicly confront him

LoL !

You should get yourself a uniform   Or maybe a cheap suit to sell snake oil like Evan has.

(And be proud of yourself for supporting a coin with a fair mine and a ledger that is as public as YOU want it to be)

How can Monero be both anonymous and transparent at the same time?
Monero is "private, optionally transparent". By default, you can get very little information from Monero (you can know that a transaction occurred, but not whence, how much and whither).

But you can decide to give one particular person access to your balance by providing this person a viewkey, a specific string. For the moment, support is limited to MyMonero.com-created addresses, since this wallet is the only one able to take advantage of viewkeys and MyMonero doesn't yet allow reading a non-MyMonero.com-created address (such as an address created with simplewallet). But later, support will be extended to any wallet and addresses.

Another optional transparency feature, hinted at in the original whitepaper but not implemented yet, is auditable addresses.

Finally, we have also considered other methods of allowing for transparency on specific transactions. People want to be able to selectively prove payments on demand and generally open up to transparency in a controlled manner, without everything being linkable and traceable to the rest of their transactions.

See also this comment by Riccardo Spagni/fluffypony on reddit:

I'd argue that there is another option. If I may demonstrate: Monero currently implements cryptographically sound transactional unlinkability and untraceability. However, it allows individuals to (completely optionally) give their "view key" to a select few, or to the government, or even publish it somewhere.

A view key can be used to reveal all transactions for an account. This means that companies could still be audited, charities could make their accounts publicly visible, and parents could see what their kids are spending the money on. Additionally, details of a transaction can be revealed via a similar mechanism on a per-transaction basis.

So the option I alluded to earlier is this: there already exists a cryptocurrency that has privacy by default, transparency optional. Governments wouldn't need to outlaw it, as law enforcement could still be given the tools to investigate illicit transactions (although they'd need to ask for the person's viewkey first, but that's no different than asking for someone's password to reveal incriminating evidence on their computer).

I'm glad scams and privacy are a joke to you. They're not to me. If it wasn't an instamine (accident or otherwise), he would have relaunched it to avoid the scam-tag. He didn't--he chose to keep his mining reward and then rename the coin twice. He earned it, so he can keep it.

Dash was instamined. And no one can justify calling it any other way without lying through their teeth.

[Jeff8247]

There's nothing I despise more than a moanero troll in the crypto world. I don't think they realise there damaging the crypto world as a whole with their non stop fud. I mean if I was fresh money there's no way I'd invest in any coin...

[toknormal]

I'm glad scams and privacy are a joke to you. They're not to me.

You might have a point if you had created the value and he had "instamined" it.

As it his, he created the value and everybody else benefited.

So give the faux outrage a break. Markets will sort out how much it matters.

[generalizethis]

There's nothing I despise more than a moanero troll in the crypto world. I don't think they realise there damaging the crypto world as a whole with their non stop fud. I mean if I was fresh money there's no way I'd invest in any coin...

Compassion troll, we can see your post history and deduce that you take any criticism of X/DRK/DSH as a threat to all of crypto. Either refute it or own it, but don't try to gloss over it with some BS of how it hurts the community. It hurts Dash, an instamined failure of privacy, that could do more harm by inviting people to use their Jerry-rigged Amway-nodes which have as much business of being in crypto as a lift kit on a Ferrari.

[generalizethis]

I'm glad scams and privacy are a joke to you. They're not to me.

You might have a point if you had created the value and he had "instamined" it.

As it his, he created the value and everybody else benefited.

So give the faux outrage a break. Markets will sort out how much it matters.

BULLSHIT! He instamined it and then claimed it was an accident. But failed to relaunch it to avoid the the scam label. It IS an instamine--don't try rationalize it differently.

[toknormal]

rolling pin out...

Your the one having difficulty "rationalizing it'  

[generalizethis]

In the oven and done....

You're the one having difficulty "rationalizing'  how any moron could call an instamine a fair launch and a good for the invested community;)

[busterzzz]

This is exactly what the system wants. In fighting between two groups of people who are almost going in the same direction but tear eachothers necks off because of a few differences. There is a much bigger picture here, bigger than dash v monero v shadowcash v bitcoin v whatever the fuck coin - it doesn't matter. Most the people here want to change the current system, cryptocurrencies, block chain technology, it allows us to do that. We are sitting in a time where we have opportunity to be a part of something amazing, and we sit here and tear eachothers heads off about who has a better project or who is doing it right. THIS IS EXPERIMENTS. You guys are all fools arguing about whose project is better. There is no set way to do any of this because it's never been done. Anyone who says "It must be done this way" is a fool. Look at the bitcoin developers struggling to pay themselves. Who says the coins that were mined in the first two weeks of DASH wont help the project? Who says it wont help fund the developers who spend their free time developing a project. These guys deserve to get paid. They take more risk than anyone. You Think if Evan wanted to scam people and steal money from them he would put his name, face? Is Evan trying to hide from anyone? NO, he is here.

I'm so tired of all this in fighting. I'm so tired people cant see the big picture here and look past their petty little arguments. Grow the fuck up people, accept that you are living in a time with a great opportunity and get with the picture. This isn't aimed at any coin, it's aimed at all the people engaging in pointless banter over the last year and a half.  

[busterzzz]

Fuck instamined coins and fuck scammers, they are scum and the coin is crap.

There you go, thats the way to progress into the future. Big boi bang that chest. Bang bang bang.

[busterzzz]

Fuck instamined coins and fuck scammers, they are scum and the coin is crap.

There you go, thats the way to progress into the future. Big boi bang that chest. Bang bang bang.

You are not interested in the future, you are interested in a scam. People are finally seeing dash for what it is and now you try to appeal to emotion, fuck scams is all I say, I would fallback to bitcoin thats the future but we have Monero so your little schemes and games are out of luck

You interest is meaningless in fighting between two groups of people. You have no interest in cryptocurrencies. What do you do to help besides make post on forums that do nothing for anybody? Do you make help videos to get people into cryptos? Do you make help videos to show people how to use wallets? Do you try to get people to use cryptos in business? Do you host a podcast every day talking about cryptos trying to get people interested in bitcoin and other leading technologies? What do you do besides sit on forums and post bull shit all day defending your worthless project that only a few thousand people in the world know about? You think any of these coins matter right now besides bitcoin? You think monero is doing anything substantial for anyone? I am a huge supporter of DASH and Im not going to sit here and lie to myself and say its the next big thing. I put my trust into people who put their name and face out there, just as you do with monero. Only difference is you cant see the big picture, you cant see that you are living in a time where there is an opportunity to change the world. I don't push cryptos on anyone. I provide information to people and let them make decisions. I am here to help change the world. There is more to this universe then being right on internet forums. Good luck with your project and I hope that some day you see the light, and get over yourself. Your project is not important, none of these projects are important in this current moment. The only way they become important is if we work with eachother, move forward and progress. Keep fighting, and in two years we will be in the same exact place as we are now. Bitcoin monopoly and a bunch of alt coin developers fighting over whos the best.

[busterzzz]

tl;dr

wait so your reading level is so low you cant read 2 paragraphs in under a minute? Wow.

tl;dr your monero project is not important and never will be.

[busterzzz]

tl;dr

wait so your reading level is so low you cant read 2 paragraphs in under a minute? Wow.

tl;dr your monero project is not important and never will be.

You wish

I wish what? That you had a higher reading level and could actually read my paragraphs?

You use tl;dr because you have no response. You have no argument. You cant see past your petty arguments. All you see is 'monero monero monero' its the best thing ever, monero monero monero bla bla bla. So great, so great, so rad, so amazing, we rule.

You cant even admit that your tech is new, experimental. Who lies to themselves? Sociopaths. At least I can admit the tech I believe in is experimental, new, and something to be approached with caution. All the crypto tech is. You sit here and lie to yourself about how great your shit is. Hahah. Who wishes? Me? You wish. You wish your coin was worth more than a dollar. You wish your developers would spend time developing and not arguing on reddit. But hey, wishes can come true, so keep wishes bud.

[busterzzz]

tl;dr

wait so your reading level is so low you cant read 2 paragraphs in under a minute? Wow.

tl;dr your monero project is not important and never will be.

You wish

its not "my project" lolol stupid trolls 

Oh it's not? Exactly the reason you are a bag holding moron. You preach preach preach monero and you cant associated yourself with the project? hahaha. bag holder. Troll? How am I a troll when I sit here and say WE SHOULDNT" BE FIGHTING. if you had a reading level higher than 3rd grade you would have read my post and seen my sincerity in it all. This fighting is pointless and children like you will never see it, because you just wanna sit around and watch your developers do work, and perhaps get rich at the same time. You do nothing for the cryptocurrency industry except give ALL of them a bad rap.

[busterzzz]

tl;dr

wait so your reading level is so low you cant read 2 paragraphs in under a minute? Wow.

tl;dr your monero project is not important and never will be.

You wish

I wish what? That you had a higher reading level and could actually read my paragraphs?

You use tl;dr because you have no response. You have no argument. You cant see past your petty arguments. All you see is 'monero monero monero' its the best thing ever, monero monero monero bla bla bla. So great, so great, so rad, so amazing, we rule.

You cant even admit that your tech is new, experimental. Who lies to themselves? Sociopaths. At least I can admit the tech I believe in is experimental, new, and something to be approached with caution. All the crypto tech is. You sit here and lie to yourself about how great your shit is. Hahah. Who wishes? Me? You wish. You wish your coin was worth more than a dollar. You wish your developers would spend time developing and not arguing on reddit. But hey, wishes can come true, so keep wishes bud.

Maybe I'm a Sociopath, your words mean nothing to me

The ones you can read at least right? Cause that 3rd grade reading level and all?

[GTO911]

Darkcoin/Dash is organized crime

[qwizzie]

i tried to read all the reply posts, i honestly tried but halfway through i got depressed from reading
all these low quality troll comments and decided to use my time better.

to OP : next time please do some investigation into the coin you are trying to discredit, would save us all
a lot of time and energy reading throughts these posts.

[FryMaple]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

This attack could, of course, be carried out on any Proof of Work network.

Why did you change my quote? Are you saying Dash doesn't accept the longest blockchain?

Correct. If you get a successful lock on a transaction, conflicting blocks are outright rejected.

Read the code here:
https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2849

You realize we have a testnet with very low hashrate? You could try this, Feel free.

Is there a bounty for double spending an instantx on testnet?

How about 50BTC?

[Febo]

Maybe they will change name back now when everyone will see how insecure DASH is.

[busterzzz]

tl;dr

wait so your reading level is so low you cant read 2 paragraphs in under a minute? Wow.

tl;dr your monero project is not important and never will be.

You wish

I wish what? That you had a higher reading level and could actually read my paragraphs?

You use tl;dr because you have no response. You have no argument. You cant see past your petty arguments. All you see is 'monero monero monero' its the best thing ever, monero monero monero bla bla bla. So great, so great, so rad, so amazing, we rule.

You cant even admit that your tech is new, experimental. Who lies to themselves? Sociopaths. At least I can admit the tech I believe in is experimental, new, and something to be approached with caution. All the crypto tech is. You sit here and lie to yourself about how great your shit is. Hahah. Who wishes? Me? You wish. You wish your coin was worth more than a dollar. You wish your developers would spend time developing and not arguing on reddit. But hey, wishes can come true, so keep wishes bud.

Maybe I'm a Sociopath, your words mean nothing to me

The ones you can read at least right? Cause that 3rd grade reading level and all?

hmmm, why the personal attacks? I just dislike dash, you won't make me like it in any shape or form, in the same way I dont care what you think about Monero...

Well that's the point I was trying to originally make. Like I said in one of my previous post, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm actually not even convinced about any of these myself. You are completely correct in that we all trust and have faith in different projects. This is the first time I've ever gotten into it on here, with anyone. I've sat back and watched a project I care about get trolled on by monero people for months now. I've held my tounge, and well this post got the best of me I guess? I don't mean to offend anybody, and if you actually go up and read my original posts you will see I am attempting some kind of comradery. My entire reason for posting here was to point out how foolish it is for us to argue about pointless stuff, and  here I am getting dragged into it. It sucks, honestly man it just sucks. I would love to see a world where two, three, 5, 10, additional technologies other than bitcoin become successful,  but it's not going to happen if we sit here and tear each other apart.

Thanks for pointing out my slide toward the dark side I will try my best to leave personal attacks out of it as I always have in the past. Take care monero people, and in all honesty and truth, I hope that you guys are one of those two, three, 5, 10 coins that does make it.

[toknormal]

You have no interest in cryptocurrencies.

And no clue either  

What do you expect from people who entertain the idea that 'invisible money's ever going to have any value.

Or that making the public half of the blockchain "disappear" is a solution to privacy. Or that peeking down the end of a toilet roll at the balance of one address remotely equates to an "audit".

Or who think that now we have a financial model with total accountability and transparency, people are going to want to go back to opacity where no-one can see sh*t that's going on and thats a breeding ground for scams, heists and corrupt technology.

Thats the real scam here - not some "instamine" b.s. accusations.

[generalizethis]

You have no interest in cryptocurrencies.

I have no clue

What do you expect from people who entertain the idea that privacy has any value.

Or that making the private half of the blockchain "disappear" is a solution to privacy. Or that providing a viewkey that another user(s) can use to verify the transaction data trustlesly via the blockchain (that's been verified by math!) for one or all of their transactions equates to an "audit".

Or who think that now we have a financial model with total accountability (NSA Rules!) and transparency (which still exists via the viewkey), people are going to want to go back to opacity where no-one can see sh*t that's none of their business and that's a breeding ground for scams, heists and corrupt technology--like Evan's instamine and the masternode reward system. (Do I sound enough like a concern troll? I'm really working on my technique).

That's the real scam here - not some "instamine" that Evan claims was an accident though that doesn't actually change what happened which was an instamine. 500,000 coins in a few hours is an instamine in most people's book, but maybe if I put quotaion marks around it like Farley's motivational speaker people will think I'm being authentic and mocking the "elitist Monerians".

You need a better editor and to learn how the viewkey works--bitcoin has the same protocol available as Peter Todd pointed out when one of the xdarkdashians went full retard on r/bitcoin. I get the fact that you're shill, but anyone who gives a shit is gonna research and realize that you're spouting off an infographic with no clear understanding of how the viewkey or protocols work--those that can't or won't research, you can keep. Stupid just gets in the way.

[toknormal]

You need a better editor and to learn how the viewkey works

Can you see all the blockchain addresses that transactions originated in with the viewkey ? (i.e. the sending address)

And how does someone without a viewkey see anything at all ?

The blockchain derives its value from the fact that it's public. Ultimately, transactions happen by public consensus in cryptocurrency, not by "math" because there is no trusted third party as with the fiat banking system.

You hide the public blockchain and you don't have anything - not money and no value - just a cryptographic messaging system for bookkeeping.

As far as "auditing goes", a transaction has 2 ends. To "audit" it you need to see the balance in the sending address, the balance in the receiving address and the transaction amount itself. Then check that "debits = credits" in each address. i.e. that the sending address balance has decremented and that the receiving address has incremented by the same amount. Not only that but EVERYBODY needs to see it for there to be consensus, not just some pin stripe suite accountant with a "viewkey".

Another area where none of this was thought through in cryptonote is the fact that crypto is not like fiat in that there are no associations between legal entities and private keys (or blockchain addresses). So the idea that you just give an auditor a "viewkey" and thats an audit is laughable. As far as he's concerned you might as well be giving him any random viewkey for any account. It's about as meaningful as me using the fact that I've got a set of housekeys in my pocket as evidence that I own a house. (In fact less so because a viewkey is even less unique than a full private key).

[generalizethis]

You need a better editor and to learn how the viewkey works

I need to do more research before I criticize what I don't understand and stop making presumptions that endorse my cognitive dissonance (because I know if this argument fails, then I'll have to come up with all new infographics with more bogus claims)  I'll start here. https://moneroeconomy.com/faq/en/how-can-monero-be-both-anonymous-and-transparent-same-time

[toknormal]

No. It doesn't mean that because an auditor wants to verify the origin of the funds and therefore has to see the balances in the sending addresses as well.

Ever heard of "double entry bookkeeping" ? That alludes to the fact that there are two or more balances involved in a transaction, not one.

A great tribute to bitcoin's success as 'money' is the fact that their is public consensus that all the recent bitcoin "heists" of late (Bitstamp, etc) were in fact thefts and not somebody 'fooling the system'. That consensus is only achaived by virtue of the public blockchain and the fact that EVERY SINGLE ADDRESS is auditable. Not public by choice but public by force.

That is the very same consensus that gives the balance in an address its value - and thereby turns it into money.

Privacy is supported by the private blockchain. The phrase "public-private key encryption" alludes to the fact that one key is supposed to be public and the other private. In cryptocurrency therefore, we maximise the anonymity of the private key by maximising the fungibility of the public addresses - not my making them invisible but my making them more fungible, a very different thing.

You can't go burying the public blockchain in a mountain of cryptography.

What you've got is an encrypted bookkeeping system for banks. Go the Ripple route and try selling it to them  

[stonehedge]

I love the fact the the OP has been called out to prove that his claims are possible in testnet but can't do it...because its a flawed theory.

I don't have any false illusions that Dash is perfect but it has been a long time since somebody has come up with a vulnerability that actually works. 

Possibly the last person was that dude who managed to manipulate masternode payments for a while? 

[cloudboy]

I love the fact the the OP has been called out to prove that his claims are possible in testnet but can't do it...because its a flawed theory.

I don't have any false illusions that Dash is perfect but it has been a long time since somebody has come up with a vulnerability that actually works. 

Possibly the last person was that dude who managed to manipulate masternode payments for a while? 

He asked about a bounty on the last page.

[generalizethis]

I like making logical fallacies and assert that all the blockchain must be public without making the obvious point that only your received and spent outputs are necessary to audit just as the case in international business when the auditor will in no way have jurisdiction to audit foreign accounts.  I also fail to see how my faulty argument applies to darksend if it is truly anonymous. So never mind the obvious comparison that the viewkey acts as a receipt verified mathematically by the network. 

[toknormal]

just as the case in international business when the auditor will in no way have jurisdiction to audit foreign accounts

That isn't the kind of audit thats important in crypto. Your thinking of the accountant that walks into your office and "audits" your bookkeeping.

For a start, the idea that cryptocurrency based economies will "just work like fiat ones" is a bit ludicrous. As I keep trying to explain, crypto is anonymous. For that reason, showing a compliance auditor a random balance on the blockchain carries about as much weight as pulling a set of keys out of a drawer and showing them those.

Secondly, all forms of money are validated by some kind of trusted third party. Thats what gives money its value. The fiat money system has a counterparty in the middle of the transaction to fulfil that role. With art it's a trusted auction house. Nobody's going to buy the bar of gold from under your bed without it being rubber stamped in public as part of the elemental continuum with atomic number 79 (a publicly verifiable and visible form of money).

In crypto, all counterparties have been eliminated from the transaction. Instead, the entire blockchain is publicly visible and verifiable so that public consensus can act at the "trusted third party". Bury that and you've buried your whole value proposition with it.

Not only that, there are loads of other 'signals' that the whole cryptonote way of approaching things is all wrong.

The fact that visibility had to be compromised to deliver "fungibility" (<-- in inverted commas because fungibility and visibility are different things) is only one. Dash managed to avoid this compromise because it has diversified its network functionality.

Other areas of "compromise and fudge" of mono-functional networks include:

 - having to find a fudge between low blocktime and too many orphans to get the comfirmation speed up
 - having to find a fudge between blocksize and efficiency to address the problems of scaleability

In both these areas, Dash has achieved the best of all worlds through functional diversification whereas others are stuck with the worst. Perfect launch or not, it’s an original crypto who’s innovative approaches to “big problems” are working, and working in visible ways.

[generalizethis]

Here you go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1031729.0

[toknormal]

Here you go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1031729.0

LoL. When in doubt, call in reinforcements from the Monero troll army.

Altogether. Lets do the "instamine scam" dance.

[generalizethis]

Here you go: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1031729.0

The criticism, if factual, should denounce every coin I just claimed was faulty, therefore I should join the debate and end this ring-signature conspiracy.

[generalizethis]

And here's this:

Every transaction involves two keys: a public spend key, and a public view key. The destination for an output in a transaction is actually a one-time public key computed from these two keys. The formula used for calculating this is: P = H_s(rA)G + B (where H_s is a hash function, r is a random, G is a basepoint, A is the public view key, B is the public spend key).

When scanning incoming transactions every transaction is scanned to see if is for "you". To do this, your wallet computes P' = H_s(aR)G + B (following the same definitions as before, except that a is your private view key, and R = rG, which is packed elsewhere into the transaction). Notice that this only requires your private view key and your public spend key, and this check is immutable and cannot be faked. You cannot receive transactions and identify them without the corresponding private view key.

In order to spend the funds you have to compute a one-time private spend key for that output using H_s(aR) + b (where b is your private spend key), so it's impossible to spend the funds without it. Literally that's all the cryptography you need to understand, but I guess when your aim is to deflect attention from an instamined scam it helps to call it a "mountain of cryptography".

From this we can also determine that it is possible to enumerate all the view keys, but as the key space is 2²⁵⁶ it's not possible unless you have more processing power than all the energy in the universe, and more time than the universe has existed.

The upshot of this is that an auditor only needs your private view key to identify all of your transactions. On the other hand, with Bitcoin and its clones you would typically need to sign every address you own (or for something like Electrum you'd be able to provide your master public key). In some ways the private view key is like the Electrum master public key, in that with both you can view every transaction for that account, and there's no way to fake that data. As with any audit, though, you could always have a second wallet for your secret transactions, but typically auditors would uncover that through other mechanisms.

The claim that the auditor has to "see the balances in the sending addresses" is ludicrous - if I, as a company, receive a payment from Microsoft Inc. do my auditors go and ask Microsoft for their bank balance?

[toknormal]

The upshot of this is that an auditor only needs your private view key to identify all of your transactions.

That isn't the 'upshot' at all.

How many daily hours do you think are spent on blockchain.info verifying transactions and wallet balances ? There are a load of reasons that my wallet might not be showing me the correct balance which are nothing to do with "math" - I installed the wrong wallet file, didn't catch up with the blockchain, my wallet is hacked, whatever.

blockchain.info and its like are positively SCOURED daily for verification purposes. Thousands of hours are spent on there checking stuff including "where did it come from and where did it go" type audits. All that activity is of immense value in terms of maintaining a high level of confidence in the system. What do I do if I open my wallet which I think had 500 XMR in it and suddenly it's only got 300 ? How does someone in that situation seek "public consensus" that the balance is correct - whether for reasons of getting drunk the night before and gambling it away without remembering, getting hacked or it not having been there in the first place ?

Does Fluffypony come along and wave a math paper at them ? Are you seriously proposing that people are just going to accept losing all that transparency ? (Because if you are then you can kiss the value goodbye as well).

if I, as a company, receive a payment from Microsoft Inc. do my auditors go and ask Microsoft for their bank balance?

Not in the fiat system by most certainly yes in a cryptocurrency.

This is why I say Monero is a fiat business model. Everything is seen from the perspective of bank accounts in a fiat system with scant regard to the things that make crypto totally distinct and nothing like the counterparty based banking model.

There is no statutory "us and them" in crypto as there is in fiat. That applies to any base monetary medium such as gold. First parties and third parties do not exist. There is simply a blockchain thats in the public domain and a bunch of anonymous private keys to control it. The correct place for such an "ownership model" is in the next layer - financial services such as ETFs or managed funds.

It's the very fact that the blockchain IS in the public domain that gives the private keys their value. There's no need to make it invisible - all your doing is re-inventing the wheel because we already have privacy built into the blockchain.

What's needed is to maximise its fungibility - for all kinds of reasons, not just privacy - to mitigate recurring and identifiable patterns of movement.

[FryMaple]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

Surely there is a bounty for this?

How about 50 BTC to double spend an InstantX on testnet?

[generalizethis]

Words, words, words, but somehow know understanding of the actual process.

Meet me over here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1031729.0

[illodin]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

Surely there is a bounty for this?

How about 50 BTC to double spend an InstantX on testnet?

I don't think there is. And there shouldn't, as starting up as many masternodes as one pleases in testnet is easy and free. AFAIK if you own both the hashrate and the masternode network, then you can do what you want, as you basically own everything.

[illodin]

Correct. If you get a successful lock on a transaction, conflicting blocks are outright rejected.

Read the code here:
https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2849

Did you use a testnet when you accidentally mined all those coins? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=999886.100

When your dreams of InstantX being easily exploited get shattered, switch to off-topic ad hominems. Standard.

Fuck instamined coins and fuck scammers, they are scum and the coin is crap.

And another one.

Darkcoin/Dash is organized crime

One more.

haha, Dash/Darkcoin - by scammers, for scammers.

Lol shitcoin gonna shitcoin

Where are the Darkcoin/Dash sheep now? No dumb justifications?

After such premature ejaculation bukkake party getting angry when the candy is taken away from you is quite understandable.

[generalizethis]

Correct. If you get a successful lock on a transaction, conflicting blocks are outright rejected.

Read the code here:
https://github.com/dashpay/dash/blob/master/src/main.cpp#L2849

Did you use a testnet when you accidentally mined all those coins? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=999886.100

When your dreams of Evan going to jail for fraud happen.

When ever I see him come into the light, I'm gonna bring it up. Can't he answer for himself? I honestly don't care about insta-whatever, I saw him post and wanted an answer. I got it, cowardice.

[toknormal]

When ever I see him come into the light, I'm gonna bring it up

Why ? Did he force you to invest or something ?

(Hint - if only he had you'd be a whole lot better off    )

[generalizethis]

When ever I see him come into the light, I'm gonna bring it up

A scam is a scam is a scam, but let me offer up another story based my incredible skills of supposition....

[FryMaple]

This attack could, of course never be carried out on any Proof of Work network InstantX.

You should look at the code and read the whitepaper, because it deals with this exact situation. Nice try though...

Surely there is a bounty for this?

How about 50 BTC to double spend an InstantX on testnet?

I don't think there is. And there shouldn't, as starting up as many masternodes as one pleases in testnet is easy and free. AFAIK if you own both the hashrate and the masternode network, then you can do what you want, as you basically own everything.

Evan thinks otherwise and asked me to attempt a double spend on testnet.

Why should I do this for free?

If it's so secure, why not have a bounty for exploits?

[toknormal]

Why should I do this for free?

If it's so secure, why not have a bounty for exploits?

Apparently you don't need one according to your original thesis

It's a self funding exercise who's reward is potentially unlimited   

[illodin]

How about 50 BTC to double spend an InstantX on testnet?

I don't think there is. And there shouldn't, as starting up as many masternodes as one pleases in testnet is easy and free. AFAIK if you own both the hashrate and the masternode network, then you can do what you want, as you basically own everything.

Evan thinks otherwise and asked me to attempt a double spend on testnet.

Yes, please attempt, by using the method you outlined. If there was a bounty for breaking the testnet, people would cheat by launching enough masternodes they'd have 99% of the masternode network.

Why should I do this for free?

Well, you already created a sockpuppet account and this thread. So why not go all the way? And it wouldn't be for free, think how your bag of shitcoins would skyrocket if just the big evil DASH would go away.

If it's so secure, why not have a bounty for exploits?

Can't say for sure, but probably because it would be an extra effort. Let's assume it is secure, and no one will break it. What's the use of the bounty then, it would only cause hassle as people would submit invalid cases and someone would have to potentially spend a lot of time to verify/invalidate them.