As A Dog Returneth To His Vomit - Quickseller Reloaded

[TerminatorXL]

Banning the account transaction will only make this kind of transaction to operate from underground which makes the transaction hard to be tracked. By not banning the selling or buying of the forum account this actually have more benefit since all the sales of the account will be made in public

By outlawing armed robberies, we only force armed robbers to "operate from underground which makes the [armed robberies] hard to be tracked."
Something like that?
Besides, who would want to track upstanding citizens dealing in forum accounts???

armed robberies has been outlawed and yet it keeps on happening  , main point is, banning the account sales wont actually make this practice stop . Admin might want to track it perhaps the account is purchase by a serial scammer, imo 

No, outlawing armed robberies didn't make them disappear. It did make the practice a bit less common than it otherwise would have been

@chronicsky: You're an account farmer, the cancer of bitcointalk. Just an opinion

Umm, he is more likely an account trader not farmer and not a cancer

"TerminatorXL" is certainly not your main account and the only conclusion I can draw from that is: you are afraid to have your trolling associated with it. Which is - apart from the trolling bit - another good reasons why its fine to have multiple accounts.

Or afraid that his main account might be tagged with the negative trust for constant trolling

Possible. Quickseller & his alts have been known to be a bit vindictive in the past (see rest of this sub)

[1715349420]

1715349420

[TerminatorXL]

You are trolling. People do not get banned for speaking out against the trading of accounts, nor do they get banned for speaking out against the staff/administration. I have spoken out against the moderation of the forum plenty of times and never have been banned.

http://s11.postimg.org/up85p4sw3/Capture.png

Even if people did get banned for speaking out against the administration/staff then your main account would get banned as well because BadBear/theymos is able to determine which accounts you alts are and proceed to ban them as well

My understanding is that they can not - at least that's the rationale given for allowing alt accounts. Tricky thing, argument in the alternative

[chronicsky]

@chronicsky: You're an account farmer, the cancer of bitcointalk. Just an opinion

Nope! Am just a account buyer/seller , i buy them at low and sell them , i never make account , neither do i have time to join Sig from other accounts.
So i just buy/sell , you got a problem with it ! deal with your problems . Anyways since this is not your main either , let me know if you're looking for another account
Why am i even explaining this to a troller like you

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
Nope! Am just a account buyer/seller , i buy them at low and sell them , i never make account , neither do i have time to join Sig from other accounts.
So i just buy/sell , you got a problem with it ! deal with your problems . [...]

I do have a problem with that, my new friend, as you might have already guessed. And, as you can see, I'm beginning to deal with it.
Not going to let this forum degenerate into a cesspool of spam & scam

I don't thing meta is discussion about the forum anymore .

Sure. Excepting the distractions of [several?] white knight[ s] of dubious motivation, this thread is about forum policies.
In particular, the policy adressing the buying & selling of bitcointalk accounts.

[redsn0w]

I don't thing meta is discussion about the forum anymore .

I was thinking that while reading this thread.

We should rename this section in "Quickseller & Meta" // Sarcasm

However, I think the freedom (of speech) will prevail for ever in this forum and this type of thread will be really useful (because everyone will know the truth about some user).

[yoona]

so what the point this thread? are you vindictive to someone? are you looking for revenge?whatever it is, wish this may be useful.
love and peace from me 

[TerminatorXL]

so what the point this thread? are you vindictive to someone? are you looking for revenge?whatever it is, wish this may be useful.
love and peace from me  

ELI5 version:
The point is to change the forum policy regarding buying and selling of user accounts.
At best, these accounts are used to pollute this forum with pay-to-post sig spam.
At worst, these accounts are used for scamming.
Allowing this shit to go on in the open also makes us look retarded

Edit: Turn over any stone on this forum, you'll find a budding turd Welcome to the forum, douchebag.

hey i want to sell jr.member account but i dont know the deserve price
the activity is over 40, i see people sell it for around 0.007
so anyone interested?

[SaltySpitoon]

ELI5 version:
The point is to change the forum policy regarding buying and selling of user accounts.
At best, these accounts are used to pollute this forum with pay-to-post sig spam.
At worst, these accounts are used for scamming.
Allowing this shit to go on in the open also makes us look retarded

Account selling isn't against the rules, and its not something that we plan on changing. First off, the idea of allowing alt accounts was a principal created by Satoshi when he created the forum I'm quite sure. Anonymity doesn't exist, but pseudonymity does. Just like you aren't using your main account for fear of backlash for acting like an idiot, there are valid reasons for having multiple accounts. Second, it isn't something that the staff or admins can control, people are going to buy/sell accounts regardless, so why make a rule against something you can't enforce? Paid advertising signatures are indeed an annoyance, and thats another issue that is being worked on, but you said at the best that is what accounts are purchased for. Have you considered that paid advertising signatures give value to accounts that makes scamming more expensive for scammers to attempt?

[TerminatorXL]

ELI5 version:
The point is to change the forum policy regarding buying and selling of user accounts.
At best, these accounts are used to pollute this forum with pay-to-post sig spam.
At worst, these accounts are used for scamming.
Allowing this shit to go on in the open also makes us look retarded

Account selling isn't against the rules, and its not something that we plan on changing.

No, it's something we plan on changing.

First off, the idea of allowing alt accounts was a principal created by Satoshi when he created the forum I'm quite sure.

Bullshit. Sauce?

Anonymity doesn't exist, but pseudonymity does. Just like you aren't using your main account for fear of backlash for acting like an idiot, there are valid reasons for having multiple accounts. Second, it isn't something that the staff or admins can control, people are going to buy/sell accounts regardless, so why make a rule against something you can't enforce?

Already covered, pay attention. And lrn 2 polite when addressing ur betters, faggot.
 

Paid advertising signatures are indeed an annoyance, and thats another issue that is being worked on, but you said at the best that is what accounts are purchased for. Have you considered that paid advertising signatures give value to accounts that makes scamming more expensive for scammers to attempt?

No, i haven't considered it. For the same reason I haven't considered sticking my dick in a rat trap -- it's stupid.

[SaltySpitoon]

So if I'm gauging this right, you don't actually care about your OP, and you are trying to get yourself banned so you can call abuse and be a martyr. You know most people are smart enough to see through the bullshit. If you actually care about account selling, try responding again without the unnecessary language. I've been here for years, I'm not stupid enough to get into a flame war with a newbie account that is trying to make a point.

[TerminatorXL]

So if I'm gauging this right, you don't actually care about your OP, and you are trying to get yourself banned so you can call abuse and be a martyr. You know most people are smart enough to see through the bullshit. If you actually care about account selling, try responding again without the unnecessary language. I've been here for years, I'm not stupid enough to get into a flame war with a newbie account that is trying to make a point.

No, you're gauging this wrong. I'm not afraid of this account getting banned, hence will not tolerate your grasping condescension.
Respect others, and remember that not everyone here is a teenager.

And lol @ "I've been here for years" - I've been here for years too.

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

So if I'm gauging this right, you don't actually care about your OP, and you are trying to get yourself banned so you can call abuse and be a martyr. You know most people are smart enough to see through the bullshit. If you actually care about account selling, try responding again without the unnecessary language. I've been here for years, I'm not stupid enough to get into a flame war with a newbie account that is trying to make a point.

No, you're gauging this wrong. I'm not afraid of this account getting banned, hence will not tolerate your grasping condescension.
Respect others, and remember that not everyone here is a teenager.

And lol @ "I've been here for years" - I've been here for years too.

You know, I like you bro. But isn't the issue here the monetization of posts? Aren't sig campaigns the real sauce of this?

[SaltySpitoon]

So if I'm gauging this right, you don't actually care about your OP, and you are trying to get yourself banned so you can call abuse and be a martyr. You know most people are smart enough to see through the bullshit. If you actually care about account selling, try responding again without the unnecessary language. I've been here for years, I'm not stupid enough to get into a flame war with a newbie account that is trying to make a point.

No, you're gauging this wrong. I'm not afraid of this account getting banned, hence will not tolerate your grasping condescension.
Respect others, and remember that not everyone here is a teenager.

So if you care about the topic, why not talk to me and get answers rather than being an ass? If you want me to talk to you like an adult, I expect the same curtosy. I have no problem with those who disagree with policies, but if you are going to use unnecessary insults, why should I take the time to answer you? There are plenty of people who speak out against issues that they see the forum having, but they don't get banned. You don't get banned for not liking what we do here, you get banned for being disruptive. Far too many people try to make a point by getting themselves banned for behavior that is completely unnecessary, and then they cry abuse. You don't own the forums, Theymos does, moderators just try to help the forums by keeping the boards clean of off topic crap and things that will get the forum operators in trouble with the law, IE death threats, people selling drugs, etc. I explained why account selling is allowed, but I will do so in more detail, you are welcome to refute points, but this time if you want to be treated like an adult, act like one.

1) We can't stop it. There is no way to stop account selling. If we ban account selling, what will people do? They will sell their accounts not in the public. They will sell them off site through IM or what ever, and people will use Tor or Proxies or whatever to avoid getting caught. Allowing it, people can trade accounts openly so others know that it is going on.

2) The good outweighs the bad. Everyone knows that scams happen, so people are already on their toes. People always fear that a trusted user is going to sell their account and someone will scam with it, yet no one has pointed out any case where that has ever happened. Just like you are using an alt account to avoid people going after your main account, that is a good reason to have alt accounts. If you have an unpopular idea and don't want that associated with a personal or professional account, you can voice your opinions with an alt account. That was what Satoshi mentioned in passing, I'd quote that for you, but that would require hours of sifting through old threads, so I mentioned I believe that is the case, but I can't site it for you at the moment.

Paid advertising signatures are annoying, of all people I agree with you there. I spend hours per day dealing with it. That is another issue that is being worked on. We don't want to remove paid advertising signatures all together, but something will be done to limit the spam. But to my point that you called stupid. If I can make .3 BTC per month with a hero account with a paid advertising signature, that increases the value of accounts. If you can make 1 BTC with an account in 3 months, the account is going to be worth more than it was without paid advertising signatures. Scammers will then have to pay more for older accounts, and if they fail to scam, their account gets marked with negative trust, and they are out 1+ BTC or whatever accounts are selling for.

[TerminatorXL]

[...]
You know, I like you bro. But isn't the issue here the monetization of posts? Aren't sig campaigns the real sause of this?

It's the gestalt of paid ads, buying & selling of accounts, and financially invested mods.
Difficult to speak out against ad campaigns while participating in them, no? Would probably also be against the campaign rules

[TerminatorXL]

So if I'm gauging this right, you don't actually care about your OP, and you are trying to get yourself banned so you can call abuse and be a martyr. You know most people are smart enough to see through the bullshit. If you actually care about account selling, try responding again without the unnecessary language. I've been here for years, I'm not stupid enough to get into a flame war with a newbie account that is trying to make a point.

No, you're gauging this wrong. I'm not afraid of this account getting banned, hence will not tolerate your grasping condescension.
Respect others, and remember that not everyone here is a teenager.

So if you care about the topic, why not talk to me and get answers rather than being an ass? If you want me to talk to you like an adult, I expect the same curtosy. I have no problem with those who disagree with policies, but if you are going to use unnecessary insults, why should I take the time to answer you?

>idiot
>ass
Avoid using those words when speaking to me. Results may surprise you.

There are plenty of people who speak out against issues that they see the forum having, but they don't get banned. You don't get banned for not liking what we do here, you get banned for being disruptive. Far too many people try to make a point by getting themselves banned for behavior that is completely unnecessary, and then they cry abuse.

Some disagree.
http://s18.postimg.org/o5qd5iokp/Capture.png

You don't own the forums, Theymos does, moderators just try to help the forums by keeping the boards clean of off topic crap and things that will get the forum operators in trouble with the law, IE death threats, people selling drugs, etc. I explained why account selling is allowed, but I will do so in more detail, you are welcome to refute points, but this time if you want to be treated like an adult, act like one.

1) We can't stop it. There is no way to stop account selling.

You can't fully stop it. Just like you can't fully stop people killing each other.
This doesn't imply that murder should be legalized.
 

If we ban account selling, what will people do? They will sell their accounts not in the public. They will sell them off site through IM or what ever, and people will use Tor or Proxies or whatever to avoid getting caught. Allowing it, people can trade accounts openly so others know that it is going on.

Sure. Caveat: Just as the case with murder, the number of incidents tends to decline when no longer condoned by the powers that be. And the malefactors could be penalized when discovered. Now? I get to look at them spam & scam.

<more in the next post>

[TerminatorXL]

2) The good outweighs the bad. Everyone knows that scams happen, so people are already on their toes. People always fear that a trusted user is going to sell their account and someone will scam with it, yet no one has pointed out any case where that has ever happened.

You're implying that some bad arguments were made against forum-approved account dealing? I'm sure, though I'm not the one making them, so feel no need to rationalize/defend them. Many fools in every camp.

Just like you are using an alt account to avoid people going after your main account, that is a good reason to have alt accounts. If you have an unpopular idea and don't want that associated with a personal or professional account, you can voice your opinions with an alt account. That was what Satoshi mentioned in passing, I'd quote that for you, but that would require hours of sifting through old threads, so I mentioned I believe that is the case, but I can't site it for you at the moment.

I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to accept that a bitcointalk mod can't find a Satoshi quote. That's like a revival preacher not being able to quote the Bible. As I've pointed out before, I do not remember him saying anything regarding alt accounts.Please take the time to find it & make me eat my words.

Paid advertising signatures are annoying, of all people I agree with you there. I spend hours per day dealing with it. That is another issue that is being worked on. We don't want to remove paid advertising signatures all together, but something will be done to limit the spam. But to my point that you called stupid. If I can make .3 BTC per month with a hero account with a paid advertising signature, that increases the value of accounts. If you can make 1 BTC with an account in 3 months, the account is going to be worth more than it was without paid advertising signatures. Scammers will then have to pay more for older accounts, and if they fail to scam, their account gets marked with negative trust, and they are out 1+ BTC or whatever accounts are selling for.

I'll explain why this is nonsense. The sort of scams perpetrated with hero accounts net their owners hundreds and thousands of BTC, not the pocket change dribbling in as they post which you're describing.

[SaltySpitoon]

I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to accept that a bitcointalk mod can't find a Satoshi quote. That's like a revival preacher not being able to quote the Bible. As I've pointed out before, I do not remember him saying anything regarding alt accounts.Please take the time to find it & make me eat my words.

Paid advertising signatures are annoying, of all people I agree with you there. I spend hours per day dealing with it. That is another issue that is being worked on. We don't want to remove paid advertising signatures all together, but something will be done to limit the spam. But to my point that you called stupid. If I can make .3 BTC per month with a hero account with a paid advertising signature, that increases the value of accounts. If you can make 1 BTC with an account in 3 months, the account is going to be worth more than it was without paid advertising signatures. Scammers will then have to pay more for older accounts, and if they fail to scam, their account gets marked with negative trust, and they are out 1+ BTC or whatever accounts are selling for.

I'll explain why this is nonsense. The sort of scams perpetrated with hero accounts net their owners hundreds and thousands of BTC, not the pocket change dribbling in as they post which you're describing.

I dont have a magic search button to search through thousands of specified threads, I've got the same tools as anyone else. Forum policy was influenced very heavily by Satoshi since he created the original forum policy, I dont really wish to get into semantics, as you have addressed a single problem, account selling, and I wish to address that. As I said, please provide a single example of where a hero account that was purchased netted hundreds if not thousands of Bitcoins?

Equating alt accounts to killing people is assanine. If someone kills another person, there is physical evidence and police forces with resources at their disposal. This is a forum, we aren't going to track people down who make new accounts and put them in prision. Not that there is any intention to end account selling, but if we were looking for a solution, what would be your proposal to end account selling? How could you possibly stop people from making an account on a website? IP bans? Banning Proxies/Tor? There is absolutely no way to ban account selling, and its not a big deal. If we banned account selling, 95% of the forum users that knew how to avoid getting caught would then be able to cause more damage by creating new accounts. As it is, people trade with caution with anyone.

[Vod]

I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to accept that a bitcointalk mod can't find a Satoshi quote.

I don't think the Global Moderators have access to the raw sql database like Theymos does, so he probably has access to the same tools you do.

Edit:  SaltySpitoon beat me to it, with almost exactly the same words.  

[TerminatorXL]

I'm sorry, but I find it difficult to accept that a bitcointalk mod can't find a Satoshi quote. That's like a revival preacher not being able to quote the Bible. As I've pointed out before, I do not remember him saying anything regarding alt accounts.Please take the time to find it & make me eat my words.

Paid advertising signatures are annoying, of all people I agree with you there. I spend hours per day dealing with it. That is another issue that is being worked on. We don't want to remove paid advertising signatures all together, but something will be done to limit the spam. But to my point that you called stupid. If I can make .3 BTC per month with a hero account with a paid advertising signature, that increases the value of accounts. If you can make 1 BTC with an account in 3 months, the account is going to be worth more than it was without paid advertising signatures. Scammers will then have to pay more for older accounts, and if they fail to scam, their account gets marked with negative trust, and they are out 1+ BTC or whatever accounts are selling for.

I'll explain why this is nonsense. The sort of scams perpetrated with hero accounts net their owners hundreds and thousands of BTC, not the pocket change dribbling in as they post which you're describing.

I dont have a magic search button to search through thousands of specified threads, I've got the same tools as anyone else. Forum policy was influenced very heavily by Satoshi since he created the original forum policy, I dont really wish to get into semantics, as you have addressed a single problem, account selling, and I wish to address that. As I said, please provide a single example of where a hero account that was purchased netted hundreds if not thousands of Bitcoins?

You're asking me to do the impossible, but what about this guy, TAT? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=79242
He hasn't posted at all in the past year, or posted much after Neo and Bee fiasco, which he bootstrapped on his sterling reputation, did a runner. Didn't sound much like himself in his last posts, either.
But again, you're making me defend arguments I've never made, so sorry if I sound tepid

Equating alt accounts to killing people is assanine.

There you go again, "assanine" [sic]. I'm not equating, I'm making whatchamacall an analogy.

If someone kills another person, there is physical evidence and police forces with resources at their disposal. This is a forum, we aren't going to track people down who make new accounts and put them in prision.

Did anyone other than yourself mention prison? I certainly didn't. You ban accounts, that's a natural fact. You ban them for ill-defined, wholly subjective transgressions. That's also a fact, since there isn't even a rigidly defined set of forum rules - just an "unofficial" list.
What makes multiple accounts any different? And why allow them to be sold in the open? It's an embarrassment when people like Quickseller, a default trust member, advertise to purchase senior accounts IN BULK.

Not that there is any intention to end account selling, but if we were looking for a solution, what would be your proposal to end account selling?

Start by changing the forum policy - forbid it.

How could you possibly stop people from making an account on a website? IP bans? Banning Proxies/Tor? There is absolutely no way to ban account selling, and its not a big deal.

It is a medium-sized deal, it's making this place look retarded.
Fewer accounts will be made when they can't be sold right here, on bitcointalk, in the digital goods and auctions sections.
And when the likes of Quickseller are caught using alts, they could be banned.
Unlike now, when nothing happens.
Basic stuff, surprising I need to explain it.

If we banned account selling, 95% of the forum users that knew how to avoid getting caught would then be able to cause more damage by creating new accounts. As it is, people trade with caution with anyone.

Please. In this very thread, I've explained that legalizing murder wouldn't reduce the number of killings "because people would be more cautious."

Edit:

[...]
I don't think the Global Moderators have access to the raw sql database like Theymos does, so he probably has access to the same tools you do.
[...]

Why the need? satoshi->profile->posts & search. Though Google would likely be much easier. Just assumed that anyone citing Satoshi like grammy quotes her Red letter Bible would sort'a know what he's looking for.

[SaltySpitoon]

Ok, what is your argument then? I keep making points and you claim you never stated otherwise, so what are your points so I can adress them?

Its a bad analogy, you can't compare killing someone to making alt accounts.

There we go, you have a chip on your shoulder about Quickseller, ok. While you state it as fact, who said that I ban accounts? Let alone for unknown transgressions. Yep there aren't steadfast rules, because then people could abuse loopholes. Rather than unforgiving rules, we have a group of people decide on bans and ample warnings are given. Common sense and well thought out policies are what the forum runs by.

I've already addressed why having multiple accounts isn't against the rules, but I'm waiting for you to address specific points that I can then address since I'm not allowed to make examples or address anything that you haven't specifically said.

Ok, hypothetically, we forbid having multiple accounts. What happens then? People then sell accounts through IRC, Ebay, ecrypted messages via PM, etc and the practice continues. We can't really disuade people from selling accounts, not in any reasonable manner.

Saying a rule is retarded but not explaining why you think so, even though I've given multiple valid reasons for why it isn't retarded isn't really helping. I could explain very throughly why you can't draw comparisons between murder and account creation, but I wouldn't want to put words in your mouth, so I'll wait for you to ask.