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Author Topic: HungerCoins Invest: The odds are ever in your favor.  (Read 14254 times)
iamtheone
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August 30, 2012, 10:52:32 PM
 #41

Please don't play this.

If it gets popular, then it is just "use the blockchain to create a Ponzi scheme". It can scale up, using new transactions to pay a little more to older transactions made 2 or 3 blocks ago. That's is the essence of a Ponzi scheme.

If you want to test something, use the testnet.  That is what it is for.


Hi Gavin,

It's an honor you visited this thread. I completely understand where you are coming from. However, that is not our intention here. I am also a programmer and I am also involved in various open source projects that helped humanity. I assure you we have the purest intentions. But as I said, I totally understand you. I guess you can deduce from my previous posts our roadmap on how to try to run a sustainable business using bitcoin. This is just to have something to start with.

I find a little disturbing, however, if you intend to tell me that bitcoin can't scale to a level when our plans will take off. I really don't know how scalable bitcoin is as of the moment. I am more into business applications now.

If you are saying so, we can always stop what we plan. If it means we can't sustain our plans for scalability reasons of bitcoin, we can always reconsider albeit a little too early. We have prepared a budget for all these and test the waters. I can always recommend to our management to stop our plans and inform the public beforehand. It was never our intention to scam people. How I wish I can tell you right now what company I'm working for. I just still can't. But it surely will remove all doubts.

For the time being, I will let Hunger Coins run and continue what we originally plan.

I hope to hear from you and more power.
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iamtheone
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August 30, 2012, 10:58:11 PM
 #42

We will be increasing the confirmations to 6 before processing within the next few hours. Thanks everyone for helping us out.
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August 30, 2012, 11:05:59 PM
 #43

I find a little disturbing, however, if you intend to tell me that bitcoin can't scale to a level when our plans will take off. I really don't know how scalable bitcoin is as of the moment. I am more into business applications now.
Bitcoin can scale, but it takes adoption, effort, and time. If transactions soar to 100x the rate reasonable given the current adoption (as it does with the poor design used with this and SatoshiDice), everyone suffers. A simple way you could make this more reasonable would be to allow people to send multiples of 0.25 BTC instead of spamming a ton of transactions. To help the long-term scaling, companies that need the higher volumes could financially support development of such improvements (the most obvious one today being the p2p protocol needs reworking to propagate blocks reasonably).

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August 30, 2012, 11:46:12 PM
 #44

Please don't play this.

If it gets popular, then it is just "use the blockchain to create a Ponzi scheme". It can scale up, using new transactions to pay a little more to older transactions made 2 or 3 blocks ago. That's is the essence of a Ponzi scheme.

If you want to test something, use the testnet.  That is what it is for.

It seems that what he wants to test is how well the bitcoin network stands up to large numbers of transactions.  That's not something he can reasonably test using testnet since testnet doesn't have anything comparable in terms of current levels of transactions.

I can understand warning that this looks potentially like a scam, and that using it a lot is potentially damaging for the bitcoin network, but asking people not to play it seems too much.

What happened as a result of Matt's thread in which he complained about Satoshi Dice 'spam'?  I was watching it at one point but seem to have lost track of it.  Was any decision ever made regarding what to do about services which generate significant numbers of transactions?

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gmaxwell
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August 30, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
 #45

If you are saying so, we can always stop what we plan. If it means we can't sustain our plans for scalability reasons of bitcoin, we can always reconsider albeit a little too early. We have prepared a budget for all these and test the waters. I can always recommend to our management to stop our plans and inform the public beforehand. It was never our intention to scam people.
Your 'experiment' is indistinguishable from many popular scam patterns and your way of going about it creates enormous transaction loads which slow processing for regular usage, for no discernible benefit to the bitcoin economy. The secrecy and constant invocations of an undefined 'us' are also typical characteristics of scam behavior. A uncharitable interpretation might conclude that the secrecy only exists to isolate you from the consequences of your actions. Real "big companies" don't post ponzi schemes on forums without disclosing their identities or their motivations. Technical testing doesn't require weird schemes and public participation, and responsible engineering starts by asking what is already known. I call shenanigans. On the off chance that you're not full of it I'd like to speak to your supervisor, feel free to send me a private message. My gpg key is on bitcoin.org.

There is a separate test bitcoin network available for testing, you can also fairly easily run a private bitcoin network. There is no need to spend money or load the production network to test— unless you're just seeking to test the gullibility of the community.

That's not something he can reasonably test using testnet since testnet doesn't have anything comparable in terms of current levels of transactions.
You can trivially generate transaction load on testnet or an isolated test network and many people, myself included, would be glad to help out with any legitimate testing initiative on testnet.
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August 31, 2012, 12:40:45 AM
 #46

Unfortunately, only time will tell and prove that we can sustain it. We will move in two directions. A satoshidice-like lottery and this but with longer confirmations. And then we will tie up with the trusted borrowers in this forum and lend to them.

Next year will be the target until we get enough data as to how we sustain it.

I didn't expect this kind of reception from other forum members this early but i'm still excited. In due time, we will prove ourselves.
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August 31, 2012, 12:48:05 AM
 #47

So far enjoying my 0.0005BTC. Smiley

It does create blockchain clutter I suppose... I'm not worrying about that though.

VeriBlock: Securing The World's Blockchains Using Bitcoin
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iamtheone
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August 31, 2012, 12:50:59 AM
 #48

So far enjoying my 0.0005BTC. Smiley

It does create blockchain clutter I suppose... I'm not worrying about that though.

Well, I hope this will be the catalyst to improve the blockchain. Smiley Have you  tried winning bigger than 0.0005btc?
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August 31, 2012, 12:54:04 AM
 #49

Unfortunately, only time will tell and prove that we can sustain it. We will move in two directions. A satoshidice-like lottery and this but with longer confirmations. And then we will tie up with the trusted borrowers in this forum and lend to them.
In other words, you will continue to use the blockchain abusively knowing full well that it harms the network? That makes you no better than someone intentionally attacking to take Bitcoin down.

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August 31, 2012, 01:04:08 AM
 #50

Please don't play this.

If it gets popular, then it is just "use the blockchain to create a Ponzi scheme". It can scale up, using new transactions to pay a little more to older transactions made 2 or 3 blocks ago. That's is the essence of a Ponzi scheme.

If you want to test something, use the testnet.  That is what it is for.


Read it again guys, he's not talking about chain bloat. He's talking about how payouts are going to stop coming.

'Testing' is a flimsy excuse for having people sent you .25 because there are other ways to test the code:

1. test it yourself with smaller amounts.
2. use the testnet for free.

I'm not saying this is definitely a scam, it's just indistinguishable from one, a la BS&T.

Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.
iamtheone
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August 31, 2012, 01:07:28 AM
 #51

Unfortunately, only time will tell and prove that we can sustain it. We will move in two directions. A satoshidice-like lottery and this but with longer confirmations. And then we will tie up with the trusted borrowers in this forum and lend to them.
In other words, you will continue to use the blockchain abusively knowing full well that it harms the network? That makes you no better than someone intentionally attacking to take Bitcoin down.

I'm sorry I didn't mean that. If that's what we are causing, then we will take it down. But what stops the others from doing the same? How will you try to stop everyone looking at opportunities with bitcoin? Doesn't the solution lie in scaling bitcoin?

The question remains that I honestly still don't know the answer: Are we harming bitcoin now? If this gets popular, will we really harm it? I was waiting for Gavin's reply for my post earlier. I hope he will. I look up to him being the technical lead.

We are also considering other approaches like running a website but observing the same principles. Lottery and time deposits and lending.
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August 31, 2012, 08:02:57 AM
 #52

Wow I just unlocked this thread. Smiley I'm sorry everyone if I was the one who accidentally locked it.

Moving on..... Grin
iamtheone
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August 31, 2012, 08:09:12 AM
 #53

A quote by me from the other thread

"If I offer people 0.5% interest on a loan after 1 hour, the elders of this forum will shout I am a scam. That is an attractive offer but I can't sustain that for a long time.

If I offer people 0.5% interest on a loan after 1 month, the elders of this forum will not do anything about it. It's not that attractive anyway and no one will loan me.

Therefore somewhere in between 1hour and 1month, a 0.5% interest rate will both be sustainable and profitable for me and my lenders. Let me find that sweet spot. I started hunger coins beta because of that. I had a budget to find that. Why stop me? Did I violate anything?

The lottery part of hunger coins was to make it more attractive and appealing.
Do the math, it's not hard to make things sustainable around bitcoin."

As I said, the confirmation times will be gradually increased to find the sweet spot for this to be profitable both ways.
iamtheone
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August 31, 2012, 09:24:52 AM
 #54

FYI,

This application started about 24 hours ago and have successfully recieved and paid almost 1,200 bets. Right now, bets that will be processed are those with 6 confirmations. We will gradually increase it and observe the patterns of betting and try to find the best value where we can stop. It should be somewhere from 6 hour to 24 hours. Thanks to everyone and let us know any suggestions you may have on how we can improve this. Hopefully before the year ends, a sustainable setup can be established.

The original post will be updated regularly to reflect the confirmation times. Check it regularly before sending coins to know when to expect the payment.

Also, regarding the bitcoin scalability, it seems that was not the problem others wanted to raise. So I will leave that hanging for now.

Thank you.
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August 31, 2012, 10:24:27 AM
 #55

actually this is a pretty cool lending prospect, especially when it seems that the receiving/payout mechanisms are automated.
iamtheone
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August 31, 2012, 12:03:39 PM
 #56

actually this is a pretty cool lending prospect, especially when it seems that the receiving/payout mechanisms are automated.

That's the plan with a lottery twist. And remember it's harder to find investors than borrowers so the borrower side is not a problem. The problem is trying to establish your reputation without being branded a scam. Imagine if that 1200 loans i paid the last 24 hours if I did it manually, my reputation would have shot up to the ceiling.  Grin

And our core features would be: predictable (know when and how much to get paid), cheap (invest with small amounts), fast (automated micro loans). The only thing that needs to be determined is the interest rate that can be sustained. Then from there, a lot of sending addresses can be set up for different kinds of interests and time. Then it becomes a time deposit account with fixed rate and terms.
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August 31, 2012, 12:16:45 PM
 #57

actually this is a pretty cool lending prospect, especially when it seems that the receiving/payout mechanisms are automated.

That's the plan with a lottery twist. And remember it's harder to find investors than borrowers so the borrower side is not a problem. The problem is trying to establish your reputation without being branded a scam. Imagine if that 1200 loans i paid the last 24 hours if I did it manually, my reputation would have shot up to the ceiling.  Grin

And our core features would be: predictable (know when and how much to get paid), cheap (invest with small amounts), fast (automated micro loans). The only thing that needs to be determined is the interest rate that can be sustained. Then from there, a lot of sending addresses can be set up for different kinds of interests and time. Then it becomes a time deposit account with fixed rate and terms.

and you would only run when the total rolling balance would exceed... which sweetspot? ;-D
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August 31, 2012, 12:36:22 PM
 #58

Unless you can clearly explain, in small words that even I can understand, HOW you are getting the bitcoins to pay interest I'm going to assume that this is Yet Another Ponzi Scheme.

I understand how SatoshiDice makes money, and I have no issues with them generating lots of transactions.

If you were CHARGING interest then I would understand, and would have no issues with your service.

So: how will HungerCoins make money?  And don't answer "I can't tell you or everybody else will do it," that is the Ponzi-operator's standard answer.

How often do you get the chance to work on a potentially world-changing project?
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August 31, 2012, 03:00:06 PM
 #59

Unless you can clearly explain, in small words that even I can understand, HOW you are getting the bitcoins to pay interest I'm going to assume that this is Yet Another Ponzi Scheme.

I understand how SatoshiDice makes money, and I have no issues with them generating lots of transactions.

If you were CHARGING interest then I would understand, and would have no issues with your service.

So: how will HungerCoins make money?  And don't answer "I can't tell you or everybody else will do it," that is the Ponzi-operator's standard answer.


Hi Gavin,

Thanks a lot for taking your time to reply. And it's really a relief to know that you have no issues against SD type services.

The mission statement is to become the biggest and most trustworthy borrower and lender in the bitcoin world. It's really a matter of simple math. This is also what the lending subforum has been doing. Let's say I borrow A amount and pay I interest after T time, then I lend A amount for I+M interest after T time. If we can sustain it, then we profit M less overhead expenses/costs. In a nutshell that's how we plan to do it (among others). The problem we have is we can't really lend A amount since we need to have a buffer. What we are currently doing is to estimate the buffer we need based on the behavior of the lenders. And since we can only lend an amount less than A, we need to increase the interest we charge for lending to make it sustainable for us and at the same time make a profit. Aside from that, there are also risks in lending, we also need to consider that.

Now, we need to do this experiment and run some kind of monte carlo simulation to establish the best buffer level and prevent some kind of bank run. And at the same time make a reputation for ourselves to achieve our mission statement.

Also, we will be launching some kind of bitcoin lottery where the odds are in our favor but in a simplified way. Something like a single sending address fixed cost lottery with big payouts. We will also need to run some simulations to address big variances normally inherent in small bet / big payout gaming systems. And we will also need buffers to handle those variances.

Also, we plan to run bitcoin/fiat exchanges in the real world since we also believe this is the future of online currency.

There are so many possibilities on what we can do after this beta test. This is only a very small part of our plans. This is only to test the automated capturing of payments/sending of payments portion and at the same time try to get the feel of the bitcoin investors willing to invest in us. The way it was presented was a marketing decision to make it look like a lottery but it's actually some kind of investment on their part. We are spending for that. That's what businesses do to explore new opportunities. Initially spend. We wanted to sound attractive and catchy that's the only way we get noticed.

It's a free market, if somebody else will do it, then we just need to improve our services and reliability and trustworthiness. It will take time.
I hope my explanation is clear and simple enough. Thanks.
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August 31, 2012, 03:29:11 PM
 #60

Your "experiment" won't be that accurate because you are asking lenders to lend to a complete unknown.  Few will do that compared to other situations.

Give us a name and address, facebook account.  Prove FB by posting "bitcoin hunger games" on your wall.

Or prove you control a bunch of coins.

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