Has Dash the unlicensed pyramid game run its course?

[DieJohnny]

There are no real alternate coins except maybe Litecoin and Dogecoin. Why? Because you have to secure your distributed network with enough hashing power that it won't go away when the coin dumps to oblivion.

Right now i can't see why anyone would own anything other than LiteCoin, DogeCoin and Bitcoin. Dash 84 Ghs = joke coin.

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[Rux]

Lots of new people catching onto what a scam DASH really is, its good to see.  Enough people have been scammed in cryptos short life.

Like i said earlier... Monero Scammers hate everything that is not Monero and in my book thats something only scammers would do... FUD everything that isn't on their side

So much hate, for what?

So many insults, with lack of arguments only SCAM SCAM SCAM

Scam what? where? whom? instamine? so what? EVAN deserve to be a milioner, i know you are just jealous because guy is braniac in his line of work

[GTO911]

instamine? so what? EVAN deserve to be a milioner

lol, lets all dump fiat and put our money into D[tra]sh. Isnt this what satoshi wanted?

[Rux]

i didnt realise that Satoshi is your god and you have to listen to him, if he told you to jump over bridge, would you do it?

bye the way, we still dont know who the guy is so i dont belive to someone who does not exist, and what about his instamine BTC ? how come nobody is talking about his instamine?

dont get me wrong, really i dont want to start fight-arguments with any of you, i just like DASH community and coin it self, im no bagholder or anything, im mining and buying when i can, but when i think about that my paycheck is 3 months late... damn  

[toknormal]

If you could argue me point for point the way i did you without reflecting evasively back to arguments a few posts back

You did not.

You quoted me point for point and then promoted your usual random nonsense at each one about the strength of cryptography and the importance of privacy as if anyone's challenging it.

I'm sorry to tell you that what you're bagholding is a cryptographic bookkeeping system that isn't money, though it doesn't surprise me since you don't appear to have much appreciation as to the significant differences between fiat and crypto as far as privacy is concerned.

As far as your equally inaccurate statements about "centralisation" goes, be advised that any function that's redundantly reproducible cannot be described as 'centralised' despite the best efforts of a little band of jaundiced propagandists rattling around in their self indulgent threads.

If you really feel so comfortable in dismissing the challenges that Dash's approaches are addressing so successfully then maybe you should take a look at the latest litany of squabble threads in the Bitcoin Core vs Bitcoin XT saga and the spectacle of "celebrity devs" warring over the relative merits of a rock and a hard place.

Then again, that might distract you from your hobby of recycling stale agendas and have little relevance to endorsing your delusions about the relationship between "privacy" and "value" in crypto.

[generalizethis]

If you could argue me point for point the way i did you without reflecting evasively back to arguments a few posts back

You did not.

You quoted me point for point and then promoted your usual random nonsense at each one about the strength of cryptography and the importance of privacy as if anyone's challenging it.

I'm sorry to tell you that what you're bagholding is a cryptographic bookkeeping system that isn't money, though it doesn't surprise me since you don't appear to have much appreciation as to the significant differences between fiat and crypto as far as privacy is concerned.

As far as your equally inaccurate statements about "centralisation" goes, be advised that any function that's redundantly reproducible cannot be described as 'centralised' despite the best efforts of a little band of jaundiced propagandists rattling around in their self indulgent threads.

If you really feel so comfortable in dismissing the challenges that Dash's approaches are addressing so successfully then maybe you should take a look at the latest litany of squabble threads in the Bitcoin Core vs Bitcoin XT saga and the spectacle of "celebrity devs" warring over the relative merits of a rock and a hard place.

Then again, that might distract you from your hobby of recycling stale agendas and have little relevance to endorsing your delusions about the relationship between "privacy" and "value" in crypto.

"It's better to have intelligent enemies than stupid friends." --Anonymous.

Good luck Otoh and Evan. 

[aleix]

It doesn't matter if you have a guy on the moon as a Dev; you still have the masternode problem, which is too many are owned by too few and encouraged to keep the number of nodes at 1000. And the biggest holder is most likely Evan who can be easily be gotten to, and if even he couldn't be (or was out as a Dev), most masternodes are currently on Amazon servers--Amazon!--a company known to work with the NSA. And even if none of this were true, you still depend on humans to not do stupid things like run masternodes on Amazon servers--this is an inherent weakness in any system that requires human best practices to be followed in most cases. Why? Most humans are worried about themselves and their costs, not worrying about the network and the residual cost to everyone else--in short, some humans are selfish and won't care that the system breaks as long as they are getting there's, while other humans are ignorant of how their actions might break a network and will do so unknowingly--this is why good cryptosystems don't use things like masternodes.

Lets be honest, unless I actually do it or have done it, you will always weasel out of the argument with rationalizations that protect your investment in your head--there's no way for you to know that Evan or the majority of masternodes were compromised in all situations and that would be the start of the end for current Dash. Hell, the NSA could be gleaning transaction info off the Amazon servers right now and no one but Amazon and the NSA would know.

And this part isn't for Aleix; he's already made his choice and is intent on riding it till it sinks. Anyone who cares about their privacy should only have confidence in cryptosystems that are decentralized and do not depend on humans or humans following best practices to maintain their security/privacy. This is an easy rule that saves you from having to come up with infinite attack vectors for infinite solutions for a problem that will infinitely follow a system built in this flawed way.

Thanks for your answer.

I don't like a lot “general statements” like you did in your post. This is no religion or politics, so it should be based on facts.  

The only fact  that you use (this time to endorse your position) is false

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Let’s assume a large number are in amazon servers on in Evans hause, the probabilities of the network to be controlled are almost non-existent; you can check in the instant transactions white paper here:

Attacking The Consensus System via Sybil attack
https://www.dashpay.io/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/InstantTX.pdf

That was the easy part to refute, what i really liked was the “stupid humans” part instead of “automated systems” (like cryptonote, I assume).  You did your “general statement” so I will do mine .

I will divide in 2: Development and maintaining the system.

Development vs. “stupid humans”

As I said before, Darkcoin was a crappy coin at the begining (february 2014) when Evan was trying to implement a system based on coinjoin. Then an user called “Anonymint” (something like that)  appeared in the thread criticizing really hard Evan’s approach. And after some weeks of discussion appeared the Masternodes concept.

So, Dash can evolve of discussion, and we really thank critical posts (like the post  now we are are building here). Because this helps to evolve.

2.- “stupid humans” vs. “keeping the system safe”.

I am just an “average joe” with very limited tech or english skills, i have only a degree in sociology, imagine lol.
In the Dash community we have people from more than 30 countries, with all possible technological backgrounds, lawyers, journalists etc.

A lot of people are running all kind of servers as a profession. They are the IT crowd of several big and small companies. Do I want a automated invisible system (like cryptonote) ruling my money? What I want people from South Korea, Russia, Hong Kong, Germany, Vietnam, India, etc. That in a daily base take care of the network, understand the problems and help to fix it.

And I repeat,  we use open source code (no back doors) and Dash has a ledger. The automated machines tend to break.  We broke Dash before and it will break in the future. We have the human resources to fix and improve it.

The day the NSA will take control of cryptonote coins (and they will, because they are like God using your parameters) they will monitor the invisible blockchain and noone will notice it.

Let me make a last statement about greed and participating in the Dash community. I don’t really care about making money. I am poor, but i don’t need a lot for living so I’m ok. For me (and for the people I know personally in the Dash community) this is about politics. This is about destroying the banking system, and building something better.

(excuse my grammar and vocabulary mistakes, english is my third language)

[generalizethis]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

*Also there is more than one way to attack a cryptosystem.

Refute the above and we'll come back to the other stuff.

[aleix]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

This is not, again, about "believing something", this is a fact:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Use your fingers and count. I did.   

[generalizethis]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

This is not, again, about "believing something", this is a fact:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Use your fingers and count. I did.  

This doesn't prove that they aren't being run on amazon servers (or american or compromised server companies). Also, why are so many nodes not receiving transactions and others receiving so many? Are they being attacked already?  

[aleix]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

This is not, again, about "believing something", this is a fact:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Use your fingers and count. I did.   

This doesn't prove that they aren't being run on amazon servers--check the wiki on amazon server locations. Also, why are so many nodes not receiving transactions and others receiving so many? Are they being attacked already? 

(citation needed)

[generalizethis]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

This is not, again, about "believing something", this is a fact:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Use your fingers and count. I did.   

This doesn't prove that they aren't being run on amazon servers--check the wiki on amazon server locations. Also, why are so many nodes not receiving transactions and others receiving so many? Are they being attacked already? 

(citation needed)

Citation? Look at the list you linked me to--there are a lot of nodes with 0 transaction and lot more being run off of corporate servers that are most likely working with their local spying agency. Europe and America share spy data last time i checked. This is what i mean about trusting people to follow best practices--they don't.

[aleix]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

This is not, again, about "believing something", this is a fact:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Use your fingers and count. I did.  

This doesn't prove that they aren't being run on amazon servers--check the wiki on amazon server locations. Also, why are so many nodes not receiving transactions and others receiving so many? Are they being attacked already?  

(citation needed)

Citation? Look at the list you linked me to--there are a lot of nodes with 0 transaction and lot more being run off of corporate servers that are most likely working with their local spying agency. Europe and America share spy data last time i checked. This is what i mean about trusting people to follow best practices--they don't.

ok, I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to spread FUD (without understanding the basics of the masternode system and assuming some paranoic statements without any proof)  i'm out.

btw. I still waiting a comment about this:

Attacking The Consensus System via Sybil attack
https://www.dashpay.io/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/InstantTX.pdf

[sdp]

I don't agree that masternodes are a form of centralization.  Someone has already addressed that here, but I knew that there were half the number of nodes as bitcoin already. I heard it on a podcast.

Pre-mine and instant mine mimicks the haves and have-nots of the fiat world.  That is a big turn off.

I cannot address the cryptography issues because I am not a cryptographer. 

So, the "centralization" may be a perception issue.  That's my take on why nobody cares.

sdp

[generalizethis]

The majority of the masternodes are not in amazon servers, and anyone can check it here:

Funny that the most of the places listed on the masternode list are locations of Amazon servers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Web_Services

If you don't want me to think masternodes are being created on Amazon servers, you should tell your dash buddies to stop making threads like this:

https://dashtalk.org/threads/reubens-masternode-setup-service-with-amazon-ec2-one-time-fee.4441/

This is not, again, about "believing something", this is a fact:

http://www.dashnodes.com/index/masternodes/?sorts%5Bisp%5D=1&perPage=100

Use your fingers and count. I did.  

This doesn't prove that they aren't being run on amazon servers--check the wiki on amazon server locations. Also, why are so many nodes not receiving transactions and others receiving so many? Are they being attacked already?  

(citation needed)

Citation? Look at the list you linked me to--there are a lot of nodes with 0 transaction and lot more being run off of corporate servers that are most likely working with their local spying agency. Europe and America share spy data last time i checked. This is what i mean about trusting people to follow best practices--they don't.

ok, I really enjoyed our conversation. If you want to spread FUD (without understanding the basics of the masternode system and assuming some paranoic statements without any proof)  i'm out.

btw. I still waiting a comment about this:

Attacking The Consensus System via Sybil attack
https://www.dashpay.io/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/InstantTX.pdf

There are other methods of attacks, so addressing one attack does not address them all. I did comment on this above, but i think you responded as I was revising it, so you missed it.

I'm researching the masternode list you linked me to earlier; it's more telling than you think. Thanks for providing it.

[aleix]

There are other methods of attacks, so addressing one attack does not address them all. I did comment on this above, but i think you responded as I was revising it, so you missed it. [1]

I'm researching the masternode list you linked me to earlier; it's more telling than you think. Thanks for providing it.[2]

[1] "There are other methods of attacks, so addressing one attack does not address them all" is like saying nothing.

Please be specific, then maybe I can help you or guide you  to someone who can help (or maybe you are adressing a new vector attack that we need to cover, that would be very welcomed!)

[2] Masternodes are public (for now), you are welcome!

[BlockaFett]

Sad that so many people take these Trollero attack threads seriously, including Dash supporters.  Although I admit I did when they first started too.

The idea is (obviously) just to keep a thread bumped at the top of the alt-discussion board saying "Dash is a SCAM$(*&#@" or whatever, just like Monero is the only coin to keep a "speculation" thread bumped on the same board, with Generalize, Icebreaker (aka Eduardo de Castro Hashfast scammer / head Monero troll), G2M, debryune, wpalczynski, Smooth (Monero fake-core dev come mega-troll), FluffyPony (Monero lead-"dev" aka ex-journalist / Vertpay.com / MyMonero.com / PayBee.com / OpenRigs scammer), and all the usual trolls now in their 2nd year of posting the same tired garbage about 10,000 XMR pizzas and "it doesn't matter we are an unfinished-clone of Bytecoin and didn't add any features in 1 year and the wallet doesn't work because if you believe and troll hard enough, and ignore that it's a sh*tcoin-clone with zero development, Monero is the next Bitcoin!!!".  

Same as the other ~20 attack-Dash threads being pushed by Monero users/core-devs since Darkcoin implemented instant transactions and rebranded to actually take on Bitcoin thus leaving Monero with a big-empty "Anon-coin" bag.

Now Bytecoin has owned Monero, they are still here attacking their other competitors like Dash, one of the top alts with largest community and most unique development / innovation, while Monero's cut-and-paste wallet is now 1 year behind Bytecoin with no GUI / non-volatile blockchain, and they have got burned for it big time, but they don't care lol

Keep going Trollero®

[generalizethis]

There are other methods of attacks, so addressing one attack does not address them all. I did comment on this above, but i think you responded as I was revising it, so you missed it. [1]

I'm researching the masternode list you linked me to earlier; it's more telling than you think. Thanks for providing it.[2]

[1] "There are other methods of attacks, so addressing one attack does not address them all" is like saying nothing.

Please be specific, then maybe I can help you or guide you  to someone who can help (or maybe you are adressing a new vector attack that we need to cover, that would be very welcomed!)

[2] Masternodes are public (for now), you are welcome!

1. start here you lazy dasher--I joke, at least you're trying  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.660

2. A little too public as i'm finding out. 

[aleix]

1. start here you lazy dasher--I joke, at least you're trying  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001642.660

2. A little too public as i'm finding out.  

1.- I'm not FUDing, so it's your work not mine. You are a regular of the thread (not me) so please summarize for our audience.

2.- Be my guest. As I always said, break it or shut up  


btw. I am still waiting a comment about this:

Attacking The Consensus System via Sybil attack
https://www.dashpay.io/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/InstantTX.pdf


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Edit: I think I found some real facts interesting in that thread  

That probability depends on every transaction using 4 rounds of mixing (not likely), as well as assembling a 100% complete transaction, which isn't necessary for an attacker to draw hasty conclusions.

yep, but if you do the calculation using just one round it's still a huge number of days.

As for complete transactions, I agree that's not included....but I was answering your 'gun in the crowd' point, which has a probabilty of near 1, which is astronomically different to the proabilities we're talking about here.

It would be nice to know what are the average or most comonly used mixing rounds in a darksend, and calculate probability based on that. Or, even better, calculate attacker probability based on the minimum allowable amount of mixing, to establish a "worst case scenario" or baseline probability.

ok i'll do it then

with 15% of the network compromised and just one round of darksend per transaction the probability is 3.32526E-17 or .0000000000000000332526

mutiply by 1,000,000 for transactions per day (which is a really big number of darksend transactions, by the way):

.0000000000332526

and divide into 1 for number of days to get a complete transaction:

30072836410

[obit33]

Sad that so many people take these Trollero attack threads seriously, including Dash supporters.  Although I admit I did when they first started too.

The idea is (obviously) just to keep a thread bumped at the top of the alt-discussion board saying "Dash is a SCAM$(*&#@" or whatever, just like Monero is the only coin to keep a "speculation" thread bumped on the same board, with Generalize, Icebreaker (aka Eduardo de Castro Hashfast scammer / head Monero troll), G2M, debryune, wpalczynski, Smooth (Monero fake-core dev come mega-troll), FluffyPony (Monero lead-"dev" aka ex-journalist / Vertpay.com / MyMonero.com / PayBee.com / OpenRigs scammer), and all the usual trolls now in their 2nd year of posting the same tired garbage about 10,000 XMR pizzas and "it doesn't matter we are an unfinished-clone of Bytecoin and didn't add any features in 1 year and the wallet doesn't work because if you believe and troll hard enough, and ignore that it's a sh*tcoin-clone with zero development, Monero is the next Bitcoin!!!".  

Same as the other ~20 attack-Dash threads being pushed by Monero users/core-devs since Darkcoin implemented instant transactions and rebranded to actually take on Bitcoin thus leaving Monero with a big-empty "Anon-coin" bag.

Now Bytecoin has owned Monero, they are still here attacking their other competitors like Dash, one of the top alts with largest community and most unique development / innovation, while Monero's cut-and-paste wallet is now 1 year behind Bytecoin with no GUI / non-volatile blockchain, and they have got burned for it big time, but they don't care lol

Keep going Trollero®

thanks for the bump dude 

best regards