It seems irreversible payments are a paradigm shift: Scams everywhere.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.

We still need something to regulate our life in Bitcoin world. An instrument that allows to "reverse" a payment if there were no delivery of the good would be very handy.

Its called escrow.

[mobodick]

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity. 

Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.

[Rarity]

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  

Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.

Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

[mobodick]

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others.

Would you normally conduct your business the same way when transacting in other mediums of exchange?



escrow escrow escrow!

I see a flood of escrow scams coming up.
Escrow just moves the problem and without a stick to beat the escrows you are in the same situation.
You would first need a good reason to trust an escrow.
Wat could fix that is a business specializing in escrow.
Then, if they fail once it would make all further transactions with them untrustworthy.
But single escrow deals as seen on this forum are just using the same trust mechanism as scammers.
I'm not saying that people offering escrow services are scammers, but from the point of viev of the people that want their transaction escrowed the trust relation is based on the same information as would be with a scammer.
As was said earlier in this thread, you basically cannot completely trust anyone here on the basis of what they do on this forum.
There is always an uncovered risk that someone will jsut run with the coins.

[mobodick]

We still need something to regulate our life in Bitcoin world. An instrument that allows to "reverse" a payment if there were no delivery of the good would be very handy.

Yes, it exists. It's called paypal or a credit card.

No, it's called ESCROW. =)  And you can do it almost fully automated via Bitmit.net..

Yeah, this would be a good example of trustable escrow.
They would have no incentive to run off with the coins.
They have lots of incentive to not run off with the coins.

[BCB]

In spite of all the FUD in the the many multiples drama posts, I actually prefer the trading forum here.  I trust the other party within reason and I go out of my way to trade with newbees to give the a good, honest,  reliable trading experience despite the calls of "scammer" from other members as soon as a newbee posts a request for a trade.  

I never once even thought about an investment with pirate or a PPT and MNW has been on my ignore list since before the bitcoinica debacle.  I've pulled my coins out of Bitcoinica before the hack.  And I currently hold a zero balance in Intersango (waiting...)

Never been scammed by a newbee (though I've had bad trades twice with two "hero" members).   Don't care if its bitcoin, us dollar or persian rugs. All market places are the same.  Use common sense, decide who to trust and don't risk what you can't afford to loose.  

And I've never used escrow.

It's all a matter of the choices you make.   Our (US) society has come to so heavily rely on "others"  (gov't/state/big business) to protect/take care/look out for us  that it seems we are not longer capable of  fending for ourselves.

These concerns here are more a comment on our contemporary digital society then they are on the bitcoin community.

[mobodick]

So many posts saying we can trust no one so we should trust the government to regulate bitcoin. Now I've stopped laughing maybe its worth pointing out we already tried that with fiat and it hasn't exactly been a success. Its hard to take those posts seriously though, the trolls here are loosing their touch, maybe we can offer a bounty for a better class of forum troll?

Anyway, multisig is coming and that will certainly make bitcoin the worlds finest medium for financial transactions. Government regulation on software and a protocol? Ye gods, you'll want your local political party representative to check your emails for typo's next.

I mostly hear people about regulation in general, not nessesarily by government.
There are different ways to regulate stuff.
Not regulating is, by the way, worse than over-regulating (like in fiat).
The thing is that there is absolutely no proof that a monetary system can go on forever and will never collapse.
In fact, history shows that monetary systems come and go.
Saying that regulation on fiat was not a success is denying that most of us here on this forum have food, shelter and can live a reasonable life under reasonable circumsatances.
This has never been the case at this scale ever in history!
Certainly, it was never the case in situations where currency and money were not regulated.
So i would say that stating that regulation is the actual problem is more trollig that what you presume to be trolling.

[mobodick]

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  

Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.

Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

You don't need government, you need a stick.
And you need clear rules about when the stick is applied.
And everyone should agree to this before being alowed to use bitcoin.

[BCB]

I agree to an extent.  I think bitcoin has made some great strides and this forum has aided greatly in self regulation.

[mobodick]

I agree to an extent.  I think bitcoin has made some great strides and this forum has aided greatly in self regulation.

I'd say yes and no.
This forum works as social grease.
So naturally it helps some in self regulation as some users want to use the forum for that.
But the other side of the coin is that it also aided in the incubation of scams in a supposedly safe social environment.
I would say that the forum is agnostic in this respect were it not for the operators that seem to enjoy games being payed around.
The question is whether this moral agnosticism is the center this forum should operate around if it wants to provide a platform that can cultivate the bitcoin community.

[Rassah]

As others (almost) said, multisig escrow. Buyer and seller sign transaction, and money can't be released until both parties agree on settlement. Worst that will happen is you don't get your product, and no one gets the money. It's coming, but watch out for trolls w/ too much time.

One of my main reasons for why I got so interested in Bitcoin is because it is really the first true experiment in unregulated, free market capitalism. SecondLife came close, but it was at about this point (gambling rampant, ponzi just collapsed, lots of people lost money and complained) that LindenLabs stepped in and put in financial regulations, banning gambling, betting, and interest bearing accounts. I felt as if I was a scientist, closely studying a process, and just as things started to get interesting, someone stepped in, put their hand over it, and said, "no, you can't see that." Being as curious as I am, I was quite dismayed. Of course, this exact same thing has always happened in the rest of monetary history: things go horribly wrong, people complain, and instead of giving people a chance to see what kind of solutions they can come up with, someone always steps in, blocks the solutions from even getting a chance to materialize, and puts on tight controls on the currency.
We are now where SecondLife was in 2007, but without Adkins stepping in protect us from ourselves, and I, for one, am very excited to see where we will go from here!  

[Rarity]

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  

Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.

Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

You don't need government, you need a stick.
And you need clear rules about when the stick is applied.
And everyone should agree to this before being alowed to use bitcoin.

Sounds like a governing body.

[mobodick]

In a regulated environment it would not have been possible to do these things peer-to-peer in such a "low overhead" way, and only bloated corporations would get to do them.

Bullshit and you know it.
'Regulated' could just mean you have a way to secure your investment if there is a scam.
That would not give you overhead and you could still make quiet deals on some random forum anywhere on the interverse.

Unless you define what you mean here with 'regulated' you just cannot make the above statement.

[mobodick]

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  

Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.

Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

You don't need government, you need a stick.
And you need clear rules about when the stick is applied.
And everyone should agree to this before being alowed to use bitcoin.

Sounds like a governing body.

Governing body != government.

edit: and even then, it doesn't have to be a body as such. It could be intrinsic rules governing the network.
I mean, there are at this time rules governing the network.
Or do you think that bitcoins magically find their way from one account to another?
It's all based on rules that govern the behavior of the network.

[BCB]

I agree to an extent.  I think bitcoin has made some great strides and this forum has aided greatly in self regulation.

I'd say yes and no.
This forum works as social grease.
So naturally it helps some in self regulation as some users want to use the forum for that.
But the other side of the coin is that it also aided in the incubation of scams in a supposedly safe social environment.
I would say that the forum is agnostic in this respect were it not for the operators that seem to enjoy games being payed around.
The question is whether this moral agnosticism is the center this forum should operate around if it wants to provide a platform that can cultivate the bitcoin community.

I don't agree.  The forum staff is actively involved in policing the form where scammers are involved.  Look at TizzyTazzy, BTC Guy and TheBitMan. The Form and mods/admins were instrumental in the outcomes of these issues

[hashman]

Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.

We still need something to regulate our life in Bitcoin world. An instrument that allows to "reverse" a payment if there were no delivery of the good would be very handy.

+1

I see you have caught on to Rarity's interesting form of sarcasm.  Took me a while  

[Herodes]

When somebody is confident that nobody can reverse their actions and confiscate the property (Bitcoins) they now possess, it seems to override what's socially acceptable and they keep the money in their pocket despite not delivering what they committed to. There is no possible and real consequence right now.

I've lost over 300 BTC to scammers in my lifetime on this forum, all because I believed people usually valued the property of others. Either because of the social disconnect of online mediums, luck or my over-trusting attitude this has continued to happen until this day.

I am giving in guys. I will start being tougher on who I do business with. This is a totally different ball game and I need to learn how to play it.

Trust unfortunately needs to be earned, at least here.

I have the opposite experience, but then again, I'm overly cautious. I even get complaints that it's 'too' cumbersome to do business with me, and I've lost some deals over that. But I never got scammed on any person to person deal dealing with bitcoin.

[Rarity]

I don't think an individual so easily scammed is someone those of us doing well in this Bitcoin free market should be consulting on how best to proceed.  Survival of the fittest is the name of the game here, and your mismanagement of your funds has proven you do not have what it takes.  If wealth is the product of man’s capacity to think, allowing yourself to become victim to a scam and lose your wealth is evidence of a total lack of any such capacity.  Our only choice is to use government regulation to protect you from your own lack of clarity.  

Define fitness..
Because a.t.m. i see scammers being very very fit from a bitcoin aquisition perspective.

Absolutely, playing fair is not a virtue in this sort of unregulated free market system.  There are no negative consequences for playing unfairly.  You need communal values and firm government oversight to make sure honest business is the more logical path.  Bitcoin will not reach it's destiny as the currency of the future until we have those things.

The only way to stop the scammers from having such a prominent place in the food chain is to start protecting the less fit scam victims like Atlas from themselves.

You don't need government, you need a stick.
And you need clear rules about when the stick is applied.
And everyone should agree to this before being alowed to use bitcoin.

Sounds like a governing body.

Governing body != government.

edit: and even then, it doesn't have to be a body as such. It could be intrinsic rules governing the network.
I mean, there are at this time rules governing the network.
Or do you think that bitcoins magically find their way from one account to another?
It's all based on rules that govern the behavior of the network.

The people who make the rules sound like a governing body. 

[mobodick]

Meanwhile, people may like to reflect on this: if the lack of law makes it harder to earn bitcoins by honest businses than by scamming, this will attract scammers. There are masses of honest businesses who are not yet ready to move into Bitcoin because they fear that it will be considered illegal by their government they will get no protection from local law. But scammers aren't deterred are attracted by legal uncertainty, so they have already been arriving in droves. The legit ones will come when the legal position is clarified.

Fixed that for you...

[mobodick]

I agree to an extent.  I think bitcoin has made some great strides and this forum has aided greatly in self regulation.

I'd say yes and no.
This forum works as social grease.
So naturally it helps some in self regulation as some users want to use the forum for that.
But the other side of the coin is that it also aided in the incubation of scams in a supposedly safe social environment.
I would say that the forum is agnostic in this respect were it not for the operators that seem to enjoy games being payed around.
The question is whether this moral agnosticism is the center this forum should operate around if it wants to provide a platform that can cultivate the bitcoin community.

I don't agree.  The forum staff is actively involved in policing the form where scammers are involved.  Look at TizzyTazzy, BTC Guy and TheBitMan. The Form and mods/admins were instrumental in the outcomes of these issues

I think that that's mostly about looking good to te community.
I see a lot of scummy things going on these fora without mods taking any action.
And i don't blame them, it IS fascinating to look at it and even to participate.
But the question is whether that sort of stuff belongs on a forum that represents the bitcoin community as a whole.