Discussion Required

[PryptoMontreal]

I gave a loan to TheGr33k, who has +ve green trust and was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller but I thought that its no harm to give out the loan of 0.1BTC as I assumed I will be able to sell the account for more than 0.1 atleast.

As per my thoughts, he did default the loan and master-P , who was the escrow, released the account to me and I now have control of the account.

After taking control I asked Quickseller to remove the negative trust but he refused. I want everyone to do a discussion and discuss if trust should be removed or not.

In my opinion it should be removed as the trust states he is an alt of a scammer but now that account isn't held by any alt.

What are your opinions?

I want atleast Red trust to be removed and changed to neutral, But in my opinion, trust must be completely removed

[EcuaMobi]

I gave a loan to TheGr33k, who has +ve green trust and was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller but I thought that its no harm to give out the loan of 0.1BTC as I assumed I will be able to sell the account for more than 0.1 atleast.

As per my thoughts, he did default the loan and master-P , who was the escrow, released the account to me and I now have control of the account.

After taking control I asked Quickseller to remove the negative trust but he refused. I want everyone to do a discussion and discuss if trust should be removed or not.

In my opinion it should be removed as the trust states he is an alt of a scammer but now that account isn't held by any alt.

What are your opinions?

I want atleast Red trust to be removed and changed to neutral, But in my opinion, trust must be completely removed

Probably all the previous ratings, mainly Vod's feedback that made this account green, should be removed or disregarded. His rating is no longer relevant now that the account changed owner.
Regarding Quickseller's feedback the problem is that it's not possible to prove this wasn't a fake trade made just to have this rating removed. SebastianJu says the original owner of the account may be making fake deals just to get trust (and Vod's feedback is for a 0.001btc deal!). I can't think of any way to prove or disprove that. So it's a tricky one. I've added a neutral rating noting people should probably disregard all previous ratings, positive or negative.

As an extra comment: Loans should really be treated as loans, not as a way to sell or buy collateral.

[JamesCB]

I gave a loan to TheGr33k, who has +ve green trust and was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller but I thought that its no harm to give out the loan of 0.1BTC as I assumed I will be able to sell the account for more than 0.1 atleast.

As per my thoughts, he did default the loan and master-P , who was the escrow, released the account to me and I now have control of the account.

After taking control I asked Quickseller to remove the negative trust but he refused. I want everyone to do a discussion and discuss if trust should be removed or not.

In my opinion it should be removed as the trust states he is an alt of a scammer but now that account isn't held by any alt.

What are your opinions?

I want atleast Red trust to be removed and changed to neutral, But in my opinion, trust must be completely removed

There is still a possibilty of a fake loan request, probably trying to escape from the negative trust given by quickseller. Once you accepted the collateral, you accepted the trust it currently have

[erikalui]

The problem with buying and selling accounts is that it is tough to prove that the trade is fake or real as some members earlier have faked a sale of the account to get their trust removed when the account was defaulted on a loan. The best thing is to not take negative trusted accounts as a collateral to avoid any disputes while selling the account.

[achow101]

You should ask everyone who gave him trust to remove their trust both positive and negative. However, as erikalui said above, it is hard to tell if a loan or trade was faked (not saying that it was) and thus some users might refuse to remove their feedback. Since the account is under new ownership, you should ask Vod to remove the positive trust although he probably won't since he won't be back on this forum for a while. Also, Quickseller is no longer on default trust so this rating won't be seen by many members, although he does seem to shift on and off default trust quite frequently.

[Quickseller]

Negative feedback should not be removed from scammer accounts because aside from the ethical reasons that people should not scam, a financial incentive for people to try not to scam because if they scam, the value of their account goes to almost zero.

If negative feedback was regularly removed from accounts after they are sold then scammers would be able to sell their accounts for the full value of the account as if it has neutral trust because they could argue that once it is purchased, it will become a neutral trusted account.

What financial incentives would people have not to scam if it became a regular practice to have negative ratings removed once accounts were sold?

You were also warned that TheGr33k was an alt of an extortionist and that he was unlikely going to repay any money lent to him, and my negative rating was on his account more then a week prior to you giving him the loan.

[Muhammed Zakir]

I gave a loan to TheGr33k, who has +ve green trust and was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller but I thought that its no harm to give out the loan of 0.1BTC as I assumed I will be able to sell the account for more than 0.1 atleast.
 -snip-

"was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller" - THIS.

Why did you give out a loan even after it was marked as alt of scammer/extortionist? You should have asked community to ensure your assumptions are possible.

@QS: Please don't remove the feedback and I know you won't.

[shorena]

I gave a loan to TheGr33k, who has +ve green trust and was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller but I thought that its no harm to give out the loan of 0.1BTC as I assumed I will be able to sell the account for more than 0.1 atleast.
 -snip-

"was stated as alt of a scammer by quickseller" - THIS.

Why did you give out a loan even after it was marked as alt of scammer/extortionist? You should have asked community to ensure your assumptions are possible.

@QS: Please don't remove the feedback and I know you won't.

OP filled a high risk loan and is now facing the consequences of insufficient collateral.

[hilariousandco]

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

[Quickseller]

If anyone is curious, below is proof that TheGr33k is an alt of puzzel.me

Used 1A1GhKXBB4nMDMmuAAVKNn1sANYV8UPcCj to request a loan https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1073161.0

https://blockchain.info/tx/90ce8c27fa4ed5eba88bc4d113d7028047e1def234cf158e4037c80bae102fc3 was signed by both 1A1GhKXBB4nMDMmuAAVKNn1sANYV8UPcCj and 1HkS2uy1yZBQiX7M252Ej75SCAQyqemjyy

1HkS2uy1yZBQiX7M252Ej75SCAQyqemjyy was posted by cryptoforcause https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1028595.msg11122606#msg11122606

To connect cryptoforcause to puzzel.me:

cryptoforcause is also an alt of puzzel.me (who tried to extort someone out of .35) both accounts had posted the address 1BtBqWDJ28o1pWYiqtX1oUcBKpU1d86XSC with puzzel.me posting it here and cryptoforcause posting it here. Also this

I am really not sure why anyone else hasn't neg repped either of these accounts, especially considering the number of people who have asked for what evidence I have against them (and were provided such evidence)

cryptoforcause's profile - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=380298
TheGr33k's profile - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=177437

[tarsua]

It definately should not be removed, i bought an account some weeks ago with negative trust and theymos says the neg cannot be removed (it was from old scammer tag) although i can provide evidence that the account was not owned by me when it was used to scam someone (i dont even know what the negative is for), not only am i stuck with a negative full member account but saltyspitoon added a neutral trust on my account saying i am an alt of the scammer account (I am not an alt of it, i bought it, if anything, it is my alt)
so no

[tarsua]

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

What  if i can show proof of transaction?

[hilariousandco]

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

What  if i can show proof of transaction?

How will that prove anything? You can just send money from one address to the other.

[tarsua]

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

What  if i can show proof of transaction?

How will that prove anything? You can just send money from one address to the other.

can you not check the ip address from which pms were sent? and i can link you to the thread and you can contact the seller, my IP wasnt active when that account was created, im sure im the only person in my country on this website

[crankit]

^
There's TOR, there are proxies, schools, libraries, coffee shops, your cell phone, etc.
Your IP is not your fingerprint.

[tarsua]

^
There's TOR, there are proxies, schools, libraries, coffee shops, your cell phone, etc.
Your IP is not your fingerprint.

Implying that anyone used tor when the account was made

[Quickseller]

^
There's TOR, there are proxies, schools, libraries, coffee shops, your cell phone, etc.
Your IP is not your fingerprint.

Implying that anyone used tor when the account was made

The bottom line is that it is nearly impossible to prove that two accounts do not belong to the same person. There are dozens of ways to make it appear that you are not the same even when you are.

You should be grateful that Salty gave you a neutral and not a negative

[hilariousandco]

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

What  if i can show proof of transaction?

How will that prove anything? You can just send money from one address to the other.

can you not check the ip address from which pms were sent? and i can link you to the thread and you can contact the seller, my IP wasnt active when that account was created, im sure im the only person in my country on this website

Anyone can create a new account via a proxy so this does nothing. Besides, staff or admins aren't going to take time to investigate this just so someone can be vindicated of negative feedback on an account they shouldn't have bought. It's not going to happen nor should it.

[tarsua]

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

What  if i can show proof of transaction?

How will that prove anything? You can just send money from one address to the other.

can you not check the ip address from which pms were sent? and i can link you to the thread and you can contact the seller, my IP wasnt active when that account was created, im sure im the only person in my country on this website

Anyone can create a new account via a proxy so this does nothing. Besides, staff or admins aren't going to take time to investigate this just so someone can be vindicated of negative feedback on an account they shouldn't have bought. It's not going to happen nor should it.

can i sell the account  to you and have the feedback taken off my profile

[TheButterZone]

OP filled a high risk loan and is now facing the consequences of insufficient collateral.

No, it shouldn't be removed. If this was common practice anyone could fake a sale between themselves just to get the feedback removed. Scammers also should be penalised from making little to no money on their account as well but if you buy it then you still have to bear the burden of that feedback.

Concur with these and other posts.

Also, I might go one step further and say that scammer accounts should not only be worthless as collateral, but they should be considered to be encumbered by liens of the scammer's victims.