Distributed Autonomous Society

[Seldoon182]

Hi there,

Heard that the most exiting Application Bitcoin allow is DAGs. But the internet lacks of information about DAGs. What is a DAG exactly ? How does it work ? Is there any white paper ? The only white paper i've found is there, but I didn't find any reference related to the Bitcoin protocol. Is Ethereum a better protocol for DAGs ? Is there other posts here which contains DAGs topic related ? Found this article btw but i'm locking for further informations. Thanks.

[EDIT]: Removed "Distributed Autonomous Government" in the topic title. The terms just doesn't sound right.

[1715675044]

1715675044

[1715675044]

1715675044

[1715675044]

1715675044

[1715675044]

1715675044

[1715675044]

1715675044

[1715675044]

1715675044

[Seldoon182]

No comments ? No one interested in DAGs DASs ?

[Dire]

I am.

Thing is, I believe it's a totally new thing that doesn't really have legs yet. But if the truth be told, I personally think it's the only reasonable way forward for the developed world. Other countries will follow, but much later. I write science fiction so to me it seems perfectly reasonable.

Democracy actually doesn't exist in the sense it was supposed to. We realistically have a choice of just three parties that no matter in the U.S, U.K or western Europe represent the left, right or liberal, these parties pander to the large corporations and must make decisions that are for their benefit after they get into office. These large corporations aren't stupid, they bankroll all of the top three, which is why our nations end up at the wrong end of wars and corps.

the top three then (due to propaganda) are seen as the only viable choices and so therefore receive the lions share of the votes.

I don't think that's great but I also don't see it as the end of the world. Western nations still have a multitude of human rights laws in place that make our lives vastly better than many people living under dictatorships. If you don't believe that's the case, try living in those countries. You'll soon change your mind.

But...

Let's be honest. We don't have any choices after they are elected into office. They do what they want for three years and six months and then suddenly, they are all super nice and useful in the lead up to the election... and we all get collective amnesia about all the crap they did before.

Twenty plus years ago there was no alternative, now, there is. There is no reason why every country's citizen can't have an app or visit a website that gives them a choice as to which areas their tax dollars go to (connected to their ID/NI number/passport), or which major decisions are made with a click of a button. The block chain makes this entirely possible, Counterparty already has this voting system in place with tokens.

There is an arrogance to politics that says the populace are too stupid to make decisions for their own country, but the education level of most developed nations actually speaks of a different reality. We know what we want, it's just no one listens to us.

DAG is not only fair, it is perhaps the only 'truly' democratic decision/development that should be the next step forward for humanity as a whole.

Let's be realistic, we don't want our countries to fall flat on their faces, so we are not going to stop taxation any time soon, but it is our right to decide where our money goes, and national policy.

Do we really need politicians who do not recognize our wishes nor follow through on them?

  

[jdbtracker]

It is simply a matter of time, the layers are being assembled.

The concept of a Decentralized Autonomous Government is already in the works and being built as we speak. The internet is a beautiful place a massive forum of information where simple questions are given and great answers are provided. The difference with the Blockchain based systems is that with a DAC it understands these questions and it adapts to them as best as it can.

So, if you figure out how to automate a specific function it is done... the accesibility of it guarantees that all people regardless of age, sex, race, nationality, or religion has access to that function... it is an amalgamation between a contract and a law; the best of both worlds.

we are beginning to take programming to the next level to the point of global transcendence; Creating functions on the internet that correlate to rights and responsibilities that can be monitored and executed at any time globally by a citizen.

This is a battle for the hearts and minds of all humanity.

for example what do we need to create a DAG? Automation and lots of it, all functions of government can be done online, automate them and integrate them into the machines that use the Blockchain, these blockchain machines are regulated by the blockchain so any that does not adhere to it's guiding principles will be devoid of updates from the network, Asimov would be proud.

These machines composed of accreditation and administration functions that can be executed by any citizen at any given moment, with a sufficiently integrated blockchain web can ascertain veracity by strictly adhering to true information held within the blockchain.

If the Bitcoin network makes it impossible to steal funds then the avenue of attack would be to rob the individual directly, to avoid that a security blockchain with sensor integration(cameras, microphones, Facial recognitiona, A.I) can see the robbery in action and record the tresspass forever on the blockchain; bypass that by doing these actions anonymously, countered by adhering to a cadre of blockchain regulated drones that monitor the security blockchain and hunt down the offending individuals, to avoid that offenders would fight back and of course they would face the blockchain regulated enforcement drones which follow strictly and unconditionally without fear the will of the people, protecting them unconditionally, bypassing that would be to attack the common sense of the people, perverting their choices for ill gain, which would be countered by a social information and education blockchain that gathers and exposes the true information of how the society is working to fully inform the citizens with honest, unbiased information, impossible to falsify.... and hence the blockchain begins to form a government and the biggest battle in human history begins.

 regardless of the level of corruption in the world, the blockchain with it's structure will correct and balance all forces... It does not forget, it does not forgive and it is legion... the network effect globally makes every attempt at corruption visible, every attack on the integrity of the network is recorded what works once will never work again once understood. slowly but surely each deviation against the will of the people is methodically routed out and eliminated.

Blockchain based government is a deep integration of every level of the human psyche. every facet of information is cataloged, categorized, correlated, integrated to everything else, the truth is understood to a transcendent level by the network... it knows when your lying and it knows when to hold you accountable.

[tokeweed]

[Coineer]

DAG (or anything DA) is something that a lot of people are interested in for many reasons and will create massive opportunities for the right people.
This is definitely one of the more groundbreaking and challenging elements of smart contract technology.

[Dire]

It is simply a matter of time, the layers are being assembled.

The concept of a Decentralized Autonomous Government is already in the works and being built as we speak. The internet is a beautiful place a massive forum of information where simple questions are given and great answers are provided. The difference with the Blockchain based systems is that with a DAC it understands these questions and it adapts to them as best as it can.

So, if you figure out how to automate a specific function it is done... the accesibility of it guarantees that all people regardless of age, sex, race, nationality, or religion has access to that function... it is an amalgamation between a contract and a law; the best of both worlds.

we are beginning to take programming to the next level to the point of global transcendence; Creating functions on the internet that correlate to rights and responsibilities that can be monitored and executed at any time globally by a citizen.

This is a battle for the hearts and minds of all humanity.

Amen. Or words to that effect in any mode of thought or belief.

every facet of information is cataloged, categorized, correlated, integrated to everything else, the truth is understood to a transcendent level by the network... it knows when your lying and it knows when to hold you accountable.

Don't go all 1984 on me man. We still want privacy, as fragile as it is right now. What happens if my other half asks me, "Am I fat?" and I say, "Of course not." and a random blockchain connected PC in the room says "Actually, the other week you told your mate that your girlfriend had a fat ass."

That's not cool man, not at all. That's like two months of pouting and expensive dinner dates... where I pay premium for salad!@!)&

[jdbtracker]

omg! lol!

well of course... you have privacy, the security checks are for you to be sure that your rights are being respected so... the crazy security blockchain works in the background it won't meddle in your life, but if you get robbed or someone is trying to take advantage of you, it will tell you immediately that the contract you are about to agree too is not legit that it does not follow the constitution blockchains regulations.

so, no one can find out what you own unless you reveal it; This is the miracle of homomorphic encryption not even the machine knows what you have, but it can figure out when things are wrong and will only reveal this information to others if you approve.

you would have your own private blockchain ledger that catalogs your habits, purchases, what you own... what I'm trying to say is that it's looking out for you, because what you know it knows too and can tell if you may be getting extorted or robbed and will inform security drones to come check up on you to make sure everything is okay only if you have it setup for that...

personal freedom is of the utmost importance, so only relevant things would be available to others, your employer will want to know if you have a drivers licence or if your qualified to run sophisticated machinery. This can easily be devulged by you to your employeer upon request of all relevant data, giving them a key to transcribe your encrypted blockchain information and to compare it to the public blockchains for safety... so

this is how it works, public blockchain ledgers with global information and your private blockchain keeping track, no one sees what's on your private ledger but every bit of information can be confirmed if you know where to look in the public blockchains. If there is a problem the trail of information can be verified very quickly within seconds by anyone at your approval.

so yeah, no 1984, your mom won't know your secrets, but everything that lets us establish trust in each other will be available at a moments notice to establish your reputation... we don't even need names with this blockchain system to tell you the truth, as long as you know your key, your golden, the web of information will tell people who you are.

[blablaace]

No comments ? No one interested in DAGs ?

You should write the white paper .. its an interesting topic

[jonald_fyookball]

great idea, but first you need consensus on the proper role of government.  what should the DAG do and what shouldn't it so?  Since people can't really agree on that, how will you supplant the current system?

The proper role of government IMO is to uphold individual rights and prohibit initiary force.  Yet many people believe the government should have their hands in the economy, agriculture, education, the environment, you name it.

A limited government based on a DAG would be perhaps good, but people haven't been educated yet on the proper function of government.

[jdbtracker]

great idea, but first you need consensus on the proper role of government.  what should the DAG do and what shouldn't it so?  Since people can't really agree on that, how will you supplant the current system?

The proper role of government IMO is to uphold individual rights and prohibit initiary force.  Yet many people believe the government should have their hands in the economy, agriculture, education, the environment, you name it.

A limited government based on a DAG would be perhaps good, but people haven't been educated yet on the proper function of government.

That is the most important element, but for now the functions required for government are being assembled by third parties, when the best systems arise it'll form a balance, but until then it will be chaos. Considering how small the cryptocurrency community is it'll take decades to grow... plenty of time to get it right.

decentralized registries, it's a start, log vital information to be cross referenced, from there we can begin to link private, public, commercial databases(accounting, software compliance, security systems, educational, etc) to make sure that all smart contract information is measurable by software arbitration to maintain contract compliance.

There are incredible possibilities afoot, but the deep stuff, it's going to take a while. Lets simply bask in the knowledge that we are the first movers at understanding this and are already ahead of the game.

[SpanishSoldier]

Hi there,

Heard that the most exiting Application Bitcoin allow is DAGs. But the internet lacks of information about DAGs. What is a DAG exactly ? How does it work ? Is there any white paper ? The only white paper i've found is there, but I didn't find any reference related to the Bitcoin protocol. Is Ethereum a better protocol for DAGs ? Is there other posts here which contains DAGs topic related ? Found this article btw but i'm locking for further informations. Thanks.

What would happen when a Hearn type monster tries to take over it ? It would immediately turn into North Korean govt.

[The00Dustin]

will only reveal this information to others if you approve.

what you know it knows too and can tell if you may be getting extorted or robbed and will inform security drones to come check up on you to make sure everything is okay only if you have it setup for that...

So what you are saying is it won't be effective against blackmail and extortion since anyone being extorted will turn off the check in order to protect their kidnapped loved one and all movies about cops figuring this out and being heroes will take place in the distant past?  Seems more likely to me that the very suggestion that that is possible will take away that right.  I certainly want privacy, but at the end of the day, if people as a collective are voting, they will never be smart enough to be fair for everyone and fear will always guide the system.  There are a lot of stupid laws due to a lot of stupid fears, and there is a lot of stupid propaganda to drive that fear, and a DAG wouldn't change either of those things because there are a lot of stupid people.

[Dire]

but at the end of the day, if people as a collective are voting, they will never be smart enough to be fair for everyone and fear will always guide the system.

People vote as a collective now. Few parties have the money to campaign/advertise, those that do affect the collective to a greater or lesser degree. Many decisions if presented correctly with enough information are easily decided upon. It doesn't need a degree in rocket science. To suggest that human beings are all too stupid to make decisions governing policy means you may just as well chuck democracy out of the window all together... because people are too stupid to vote.

There are a lot of stupid laws due to a lot of stupid fears, and there is a lot of stupid propaganda to drive that fear, and a DAG wouldn't change either of those things because there are a lot of stupid people.

So circular logic is the order of the day is it? Let's forget about progress because stupid people prevent progress and we'll only go backwards anyway so better not to bother in the first place. With that attitude, we might as well all live in dictatorships with Daddy-Director guiding our every decisions (as we do now) because we're too stupid to make them.

One moment while I prostrate myself to the superior intellects of the ruling classes.

Elitism and arrogance of assumption about people's intelligence and ability to make valid choices about their life and country is the beginning and end of fascism. Control the sheep, for they know not where they go.

Millions have died for the freedom of choice and sanctity of human rights and individuality over hundreds/thousands of years that we now have, and you'd like to put a halt to its natural development? Because people are stupid.

[jdbtracker]

The DAG changes everything.

It functions on the best answers, in the beginning yes it will be painful if we begin from scratch... but if we wish to see farther we will have to stand on the shoulders of giants... the 15,000 years of recorded Human history to guide us. The Blockchain has a long memory, verified facts on every important bit of information would be on it, with access to multiple sources of data made by scientists, businesses, industries and other sources of information.

When we have access to decentralized databases recording the state of our civilization the DAG will be able to show us this information instantly, helping guide us to actionable information. If a wrong decision is made in one of the DAG's policies/choices, society will be equipped, educated and aware enough to choose the next best solution and compare it to previous policies, in a scientifically rigorous manner... as we begin to automate more and more, the data analytics, algorithms, formulas can be automated to best inform citizens as well.

as we gain more and more data and record it into unforgeable, time stamped blockchains, it become harder and harder to falsify information so we can honestly see what truly is the best answer without opinion or bias, the facts will be available to everyone.

for example, the industrial output of the world can be recorded and monitored in real time, data analytics is applied to the information and the answers are recorded on a blockchain for easy comparision by smart contracts, DACs and DAGs. The original information is compressed and stored for future analysis if it's authenticity is ever in question by anyone. Anyone in the world would be able to see this information and find out if it is true or not with minimal hassle, citizens may even make suggestions that bring new insight into the information. The heart beat of the world will be monitored in real time ready for entrepreneurs to solve tomorrows problems.

100 years from now after a century of blockchain technology, there would be millions of exabytes of data available about every industry, business, government, institution, corporation, society to be able to accurately see the impact that different policies had on a plethora of variables. All this would be instantly verifiable by the blockchains for authenticity, ready to be decompressed for further inquieries that could guide future policies.

I'm describing the world we live in now in the Modern World, there are records of everything, tons of data everywhere, but it is so damn hard to find anything meaningful to honestly find the answer to a question, and nine times out of ten your forced to concede that very likely there is no way to figure it out without solving it yourself.  It would be nice if things were solved once and applied whenever needed easily, but information fades, disappears gets corrupted or no one thought it was important enough to record.

[Seldoon182]

Thing is, I believe it's a totally new thing that doesn't really have legs yet. But if the truth be told, I personally think it's the only reasonable way forward for the developed world. Other countries will follow, but much later. I write science fiction so to me it seems perfectly reasonable.

What are we waiting for? We dont need any authorizations to build it. We already have the backend (the blockchain). I think that DAG should be the network of DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality) and DAM would definitely work with Open-Source cities.

Democracy actually doesn't exist in the sense it was supposed to. We realistically have a choice of just three parties that no matter in the U.S, U.K or western Europe represent the left, right or liberal, these parties pander to the large corporations and must make decisions that are for their benefit after they get into office. These large corporations aren't stupid, they bankroll all of the top three, which is why our nations end up at the wrong end of wars and corps.

Exactly ! Representative democracy is an oxymoron. We can build Software for real-time democracy and we can even build such system that can bring other governance system such as dictatorship when it comes to answer fast against climate emergency by example an oil spill reaching a continent.

the top three then (due to propaganda) are seen as the only viable choices and so therefore receive the lions share of the votes.

I don't think that's great but I also don't see it as the end of the world. Western nations still have a multitude of human rights laws in place that make our lives vastly better than many people living under dictatorships. If you don't believe that's the case, try living in those countries. You'll soon change your mind.

But...

Let's be honest. We don't have any choices after they are elected into office. They do what they want for three years and six months and then suddenly, they are all super nice and useful in the lead up to the election... and we all get collective amnesia about all the crap they did before.

We don't have any choice. We're voting for our masters. When we pay tax we can't track where our money goes.

Twenty plus years ago there was no alternative, now, there is. There is no reason why every country's citizen can't have an app or visit a website that gives them a choice as to which areas their tax dollars go to (connected to their ID/NI number/passport), or which major decisions are made with a click of a button. The block chain makes this entirely possible, Counterparty already has this voting system in place with tokens.

There is an arrogance to politics that says the populace are too stupid to make decisions for their own country, but the education level of most developed nations actually speaks of a different reality. We know what we want, it's just no one listens to us.

DAG is not only fair, it is perhaps the only 'truly' democratic decision/development that should be the next step forward for humanity as a whole.

Yeah this is the best we can have nowadays. But maybe a better system might come up in the next 50 years or so.

Let's be realistic, we don't want our countries to fall flat on their faces, so we are not going to stop taxation any time soon, but it is our right to decide where our money goes, and national policy.

Do we really need politicians who do not recognize our wishes nor follow through on them?

Heard about one single tax on every transactions would be enough compared to the market cap.

We used to need them a long time ago. But nowadays with tools such as TCP/IP which allow me to get in touch with anyone, anywhere and anytime, is there someone who still believe the need to delegate our political power. I want to be freer as I can't participate legislatively for my community and myself.

It is simply a matter of time, the layers are being assembled.

Yeah Electronic Voting and Smart Contracts are such Applications we've got within Bitcoin right now. The backend is here, we need the client. Is there an open source projet for that ?

If the Bitcoin network makes it impossible to steal funds then the avenue of attack would be to rob the individual directly, to avoid that a security blockchain with sensor integration(cameras, microphones, Facial recognitiona, A.I) can see the robbery in action and record the tresspass forever on the blockchain; bypass that by doing these actions anonymously, countered by adhering to a cadre of blockchain regulated drones that monitor the security blockchain and hunt down the offending individuals, to avoid that offenders would fight back and of course they would face the blockchain regulated enforcement drones which follow strictly and unconditionally without fear the will of the people, protecting them unconditionally, bypassing that would be to attack the common sense of the people, perverting their choices for ill gain, which would be countered by a social information and education blockchain that gathers and exposes the true information of how the society is working to fully inform the citizens with honest, unbiased information, impossible to falsify.... and hence the blockchain begins to form a government and the biggest battle in human history begins.

 regardless of the level of corruption in the world, the blockchain with it's structure will correct and balance all forces... It does not forget, it does not forgive and it is legion... the network effect globally makes every attempt at corruption visible, every attack on the integrity of the network is recorded what works once will never work again once understood. slowly but surely each deviation against the will of the people is methodically routed out and eliminated.

Which blockchain are you talking about? Bitcoin blockchain? Meta-coin? Maybe we could prototype DAG using Sidechains? Like this stuff: https://apso.info/

great idea, but first you need consensus on the proper role of government.  what should the DAG do and what shouldn't it so?  Since people can't really agree on that, how will you supplant the current system?

I think that the protocol should embed every form of governance. So the DAG can be lean compared to the situation. I don't mind dictatorship to be bad. It's a tool. If you put dictatorship in the wrong hand it's make you know what (+1 godwing point to me) but if you give dictatorship to mathematics maybe great thing can be done ?

will only reveal this information to others if you approve.

what you know it knows too and can tell if you may be getting extorted or robbed and will inform security drones to come check up on you to make sure everything is okay only if you have it setup for that...

So what you are saying is it won't be effective against blackmail and extortion since anyone being extorted will turn off the check in order to protect their kidnapped loved one and all movies about cops figuring this out and being heroes will take place in the distant past?  Seems more likely to me that the very suggestion that that is possible will take away that right.  I certainly want privacy, but at the end of the day, if people as a collective are voting, they will never be smart enough to be fair for everyone and fear will always guide the system.  There are a lot of stupid laws due to a lot of stupid fears, and there is a lot of stupid propaganda to drive that fear, and a DAG wouldn't change either of those things because there are a lot of stupid people.

I think that DAG will be the basic layer of multiple protocol maybe named as DAM (Autonomous Municipality). I think that the best start would be by prototyping this with open source city such as entropy-factory.com by example. Majority of people might sound dumb because the've been formated because of our government system. But why don't just try to help them instead of to let them alone, dying because of drugs and such ?

[evenlydistributingfuture]

Maybe with a DAG setup in place, peoples' seeming apathy about politics wouldn't be such a problem to good governance. Right now, since many people don't vote for various reasons, at least in the developed world, lack of civic participation is a big problem. Maybe DAGs could make that less problematic somehow.

[Seldoon182]

Maybe with a DAG setup in place, peoples' seeming apathy about politics wouldn't be such a problem to good governance. Right now, since many people don't vote for various reasons, at least in the developed world, lack of civic participation is a big problem. Maybe DAGs could make that less problematic somehow.

I think DAG or DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality) should allow every citizen to vote directly the law in their concern. This isn't what's happening right now with voting for a bunch of millionaires that you don't even choice.

Also let me quote John Carmack from a post about his relationship with government: http://media.armadilloaerospace.com/misc/government.htm

Almost everything that I write publicly is about technical details in software or aerospace, and the points are usually not very contentious.  I’m going to go out on a limb today and talk about a much more banal topic -– government.  This is sort of an open letter to my mother and stepfather, who are intelligent people, but we don’t see eye to eye on political issues.  A couple brief conversations a year during visits doesn’t really establish much, and I have wanted to make a more carefully considered set of points.
 
I had nearly disqualified myself from discuss politics by not bothering to cast a vote for almost 20 years after I was legally able to.  I was busy.  I paid millions of dollars of taxes without any dodges, and just focused on my work.  Listening to political speeches full of carefully calculated rhetoric is almost physically painful to me, and I diligently avoided it.
 
A couple things slowly brought me around to paying more attention.  A computer game company doesn’t need to have much to do with the government, but a company that flies rocket ships is a different matter.  Due to Armadillo Aerospace, in the last decade I have observed and interacted with a lot of different agencies, civil servants, and congressmen, and I have collected enough data points to form some opinions.  The second thing that has changed for me is becoming a father; with two young sons, I think more about how the world might look in twenty or thirty years when they are adults.
 
I am an optimist on almost all fronts.  Throughout history, there have always been those that argue that the world is going to hell, yet here we are, better off than any previous generation.  Not only are things pretty damn good, but there is a lot of positive inertia that makes it likely that things will continue to  improve for quite some time.  We aren’t balanced at a precipice, where the result of any given election can pitch us into darkness.
 
However, trends do matter.  Small, nearly painless losses accumulate over the years, and the world can slowly change into something you don’t want while you weren’t paying attention.  It doesn’t take a cataclysmic crash, just a slow accretion of over regulation, taxation, and dependency that chokes the vibrant processes that produce wealth and growth.  Without growth, you get a zero sum game of fighting over the pie that breeds all sorts of problems in government and society.
 
My core thesis is that the federal government delivers very poor value for the resources it consumes, and that society as a whole would be better off with a government that was less ambitious.  This is not to say that it doesn’t provide many valuable and even critical services, but that the cost of having the government provide them is much higher than you would tolerate from a company or individual you chose to do business with.  For almost every task, it is a poor tool.
 
So much of the government just grinds up money, like shoveling cash into a wood chipper.  It is ghastly to watch.  Billions and billions of dollars.  Imagine every stupid dot-com company that you ever heard of that suckered in millions of dollars of investor money before leaving a smoking crater in the ground with nothing to show for it.  Add up all that waste, all that stupidity.  All together, it is a rounding error versus the analogous program results in the government.  Private enterprises can’t go on squandering resources like that for long, but it is standard operating procedure for the government.
 
Well, can’t we make the government more efficient, so they can accomplish its tasks for less, or do more good work?  Sure, there is room for improvement everywhere, but there are important fundamental limits.  It is entertaining to imagine a corporate turnaround expert being told to get the federal house in shape, but it can’t happen.  The modern civil service employment arrangement is probably superior to the historic jobs-as-political-spoils approach, but it insulates the workforce from the forces that improve commercial enterprises, and the voting influence of each worker is completely uncorrelated with their value.  Without the goal and scorecard of profit, it is hard to even make value judgments between people and programs, so there are few checks against mounting inefficiency and abject failure, let alone evolution towards improvement.
 
Even if you could snap your fingers and get it, do you really want a razor sharp federal apparatus ready to efficiently carry out the mandates of whoever is the supreme central planner at the moment?  The US government was explicitly designed to make that difficult, and I think that was wise.
 
So, the federal government is essentially doomed to inefficiency, no matter who is in charge or what policies they want it to implement.  I probably haven’t lost too many people at this point – almost nobody thinks that the federal government is a paragon of efficiency, and it doesn’t take too much of an open mind to entertain the possibility that it might be much worse than you thought (it is).
 
Given the inefficiency, why is the federal government called upon to do so many things?  A large part is naked self interest, which is never going to go away -- lots of people play the game to their best advantage, and even take pride in their ability to get more than they give.
 
However, a lot is done in the name of misplaced idealism.  It isn’t hard to look around the world and find something that you feel needs fixing.  The world gets to be a better place by people taking action to improve things, but it is easy for the thought to occur that if the government can be made to address your issue, it could give results far greater than what you would be able to accomplish with direct action.  Even if you knew that it wasn’t going to be managed especially well, it would make up for it in volume.  This has an obvious appeal.
 
Every idealistic cry for the government to “Do Something” means raising revenue, which means taking money from people to spend in the name of the new cause instead of letting it be used for whatever purpose the earner would have preferred.
 
It is unfortunate that income taxes get deducted automatically from most people’s paychecks, before they ever see the money they earned.  A large chunk of the population thinks that tax day is when you get a nice little refund check.  Good trick, that.  If everyone was required to pay taxes like they pay their utilities, attitudes would probably change.  When you get an appallingly high utility bill, you start thinking about turning off some lights and changing the thermostat.  When your taxes are higher than all your other bills put together, what do you do?  You can make a bit of a difference by living in Texas instead of California, but you don’t have many options regarding the bulk of it.
 
Also, it is horribly crass to say it, but taxes are extracted by the threat of force.  I know a man (Walt Anderson), who has been in jail for a decade because the IRS disagreed with how his foundations were set up, so it isn’t an academic statement.  What things do you care strongly enough about to feel morally justified in pointing a gun at me to get me to pay for them?  A few layers of distance by proxy let most people avoid thinking about it, but that is really what it boils down to.  Feeding starving children?  The justice system?  Chemotherapy for the elderly?  Viagra for the indigent?  Corn subsidies?
 
Helping people directly can be a noble thing.  Forcing other people to do it with great inefficiency?  Not so much.  There isn’t a single thing that I would petition the federal government to add to its task list, and I would ask that it stop doing the majority of the things that it is currently doing.  My vote is going to the candidates that at least vector in that direction.

[jdbtracker]

Yes, We can assemble it now and it would not require much, just linking everything currently built together into a common API.

I had a post that described the eventual creation of this system, but I described it as beginning to emerge naturally, organically from the communities needs.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854133.0

The blockchain does not have to be Digital, it can also be physical: Barcodes with Hash and blockchain information stamped into products, each hash a hash of the previous product to determine lineage from the factory, Objects that form physical 3d hashes of information acting as keys that open or prove information.

There are a lot of Blockchain 2.0 applications that are beginning to bridge the divide: Ripple, NXT, Ethereum, Open Transactions, etc limited at the moment as those examples are, they are harbingers of what is coming next, far more robust systems applied to more and more.

[The00Dustin]

but at the end of the day, if people as a collective are voting, they will never be smart enough to be fair for everyone and fear will always guide the system.

People vote as a collective now. Few parties have the money to campaign/advertise, those that do affect the collective to a greater or lesser degree. Many decisions if presented correctly with enough information are easily decided upon. It doesn't need a degree in rocket science. To suggest that human beings are all too stupid to make decisions governing policy means you may just as well chuck democracy out of the window all together... because people are too stupid to vote.

There are a lot of stupid laws due to a lot of stupid fears, and there is a lot of stupid propaganda to drive that fear, and a DAG wouldn't change either of those things because there are a lot of stupid people.

So circular logic is the order of the day is it? Let's forget about progress because stupid people prevent progress and we'll only go backwards anyway so better not to bother in the first place. With that attitude, we might as well all live in dictatorships with Daddy-Director guiding our every decisions (as we do now) because we're too stupid to make them.

One moment while I prostrate myself to the superior intellects of the ruling classes.

Elitism and arrogance of assumption about people's intelligence and ability to make valid choices about their life and country is the beginning and end of fascism. Control the sheep, for they know not where they go.

Millions have died for the freedom of choice and sanctity of human rights and individuality over hundreds/thousands of years that we now have, and you'd like to put a halt to its natural development? Because people are stupid.

Re-read my entire post.  I didn't say we should put a halt to our development, I didn't say we shouldn't have a DAG, and I didn't suggest that anyone shouldn't be able to vote.  I simply stated that even with a DAG, fear and money will rule the day and our rights will continue to be stripped.  Because it wasn't clear, I will also point out that my comments regarding stupid people were meant to refer to people in groups / the masses / sheeple.  It was not meant to refer to a majority of individuals or allude that only individuals outside of that majority should have a say in their lives.

[Seldoon182]

but at the end of the day, if people as a collective are voting, they will never be smart enough to be fair for everyone and fear will always guide the system.

People vote as a collective now. Few parties have the money to campaign/advertise, those that do affect the collective to a greater or lesser degree. Many decisions if presented correctly with enough information are easily decided upon. It doesn't need a degree in rocket science. To suggest that human beings are all too stupid to make decisions governing policy means you may just as well chuck democracy out of the window all together... because people are too stupid to vote.

There are a lot of stupid laws due to a lot of stupid fears, and there is a lot of stupid propaganda to drive that fear, and a DAG wouldn't change either of those things because there are a lot of stupid people.

So circular logic is the order of the day is it? Let's forget about progress because stupid people prevent progress and we'll only go backwards anyway so better not to bother in the first place. With that attitude, we might as well all live in dictatorships with Daddy-Director guiding our every decisions (as we do now) because we're too stupid to make them.

One moment while I prostrate myself to the superior intellects of the ruling classes.

Elitism and arrogance of assumption about people's intelligence and ability to make valid choices about their life and country is the beginning and end of fascism. Control the sheep, for they know not where they go.

Millions have died for the freedom of choice and sanctity of human rights and individuality over hundreds/thousands of years that we now have, and you'd like to put a halt to its natural development? Because people are stupid.

Re-read my entire post.  I didn't say we should put a halt to our development, I didn't say we shouldn't have a DAG, and I didn't suggest that anyone shouldn't be able to vote.  I simply stated that even with a DAG, fear and money will rule the day and our rights will continue to be stripped.  Because it wasn't clear, I will also point out that my comments regarding stupid people were meant to refer to people in groups / the masses / sheeple.  It was not meant to refer to a majority of individuals or allude that only individuals outside of that majority should have a say in their lives.

Nah! You just didn't get what DAG allow you. People won't vote for candidates, DAG allow people to directly in real-time propose law, vote law, enhance law. Your state of mind is obviously normal as you're used to hear that the best political experience of your life is to put a ballot. As we never experienced direct voting our law we can speculate on pros and cons, but hows about prototyping such an App? That's my core message with the creation of this topic!

[The00Dustin]

Nah! You just didn't get what DAG allow you. People won't vote for candidates, DAG allow people to directly in real-time propose law, vote law, enhance law. Your state of mind is obviously normal as you're used to hear that the best political experience of your life is to put a ballot. As we never experienced direct voting our law we can speculate on pros and cons, but hows about prototyping such an App? That's my core message with the creation of this topic!

I get what the DAG allows you to do, but I don't believe that the majority of individuals will vote for privacy when someone with an agenda is telling them (for example) that privacy will get their kids raped, and a DAG doesn't get rid of people with agendas spreading FUD.  To put it another way, I'm saying that I believe people are still going to want law enforcement and law enforcement is still a corrupting form of power where corrupted people with agendas are going to point out that they need to be able to see all the central information discussed in the post I was originally responding to without permission in order to protect voters and their children.  My view is simply that people will cave in to their fears and allow things like that even when given direct voting rights.  That isn't to say that a DAG wouldn't be far better and resolve a lot of problems today's governments have, it's simply to say that such a system wouldn't be anywhere near the utopia the post I responded to was suggesting it would be and that we still need to protect our individual rights and not make it easier for the right villain to force us to give them up.

[jdbtracker]

I was thinking about that: sheeple, Can't do much about those, but we must concede that the world is incredibly complex, so we have to make the answer as complex as possible to make it difficult to manipulate those aforementioned sheeple.

What I am thinking now, is avoid the policy question for now and build the statistics system from which the smart contracts can reference for information.

Key information would be:

Agricultural output:
 Every Farm animal grown must have their DNA sequenced at birth to function as a hash for the blockchain to follow it's path through the Food Supply. Plant and vegetable yields are monitored in real time as they are sown, reaped and distributed to suppliers and markets, supplies used to grow them are marked in the chain for consumer inspection.

Industrial output:
 Using General Electrics Industrial Internet of things we can monitor how the machines are working and how much they are producing, this system is ideal for automated factories, energy grids, robots, etc.

Transportation:
 Monitoring the flow of goods and consumables across the world in real time, with all vital historical data concerning it's transportation.

Weather monitoring:
 Transcribing the real weather as it happens and applying all known weather forcasting algorithms to them for easy visualization onto the blockchain.

Waste management:
  monitoring the input to landfills and recycling plants, water works, etc to see how much waste is being recycled or how much is ending up in our stream.

Scientific Monitoring Stations:
  Monitoring water levels, pollution, ocean currents, radiation, and any other form of telemetry data onto the blockchain to see exactly what is happening to our environment.

 All relevant data should be transcribed onto a blockchain for instant access to secure verified censorship proof information for the Smart Contracts to evaluate.

Once vital Data is openly available for all we can begin to write the business contracts: Value Exchange. These contracts would be the beginning; the outcome of these contracts would be written onto it's own blockchain by which it's history could be verified. They would delineate asset exchange information in an automatic fashion tracking the history of Goods and Services.

and that's it, anymore would require the Blockchain system to have a stronger following, access to resources, services etc because what is the government after all? It is simply a system by which we put a  % of our resources into a blackbox for allocation into various services for a broad category of individuals.

Many of these services are strictly necessary, they can't be optional because of peoples tendency to subvert the system.

Accreditation: OpenBadges will solve this one.
Contract dispute resolution: well thought out smart contracts should resolve this.
Personal Security & Defence: foreign and domestic defense to overwhelm any force trespassing against ones rights & security.
Judicial Compliance: Have to make sure everyone is honest and complying with regulations.
Global Monitoring: The Blockchain can help us with this, but not if individual producers or cartels are manipulating the data.
Health & Safety: It's always nice that there is someone out there looking out for your health regardless of situation.
 
The Decentralized aspect of the DAG is that it could potentially watch out for you in all these respects as necessary like a Global Insurance. for example: if you are in a different country and have paid your dues you have access to Medical services, Search & Rescue, Legal Defense, PMC backing, Scientific analysis services, Criminal investigation services, etc all services that you pay your taxes for would be immediately available regardless of Age, Sex, Nationality, Religion, etc in essence every member would be fully backed by the DAG. All these services once executed would be marked on the blockchain to maintain a historical record, in case something happens to you, the investigators would transcribe what happened to you on the blockchain.

Resolving these last vestiges of the DAG would require technology we have but is not fully developed.
Health monitoring sensors embedded onto a person to diagnose your health.
Personal safety drones that can be securely regulated to monitor your safety and security directly by you... think of it as your smart phone with a neuromorphic chip helping your digital assistant keep you safe. Think of Halo, where the AI points out that there is a gun pointed at OUR head, because it is part of you.
Armed Military Security Drones to help keep you safe in remote regions and if necessary keep investigators safe to determine who or what got you.
Automatic assembly and deployment of Global sensors to fill gaps in Citizens knowledge.

and others that require Star Wars level of technology a good 15 years worth of development or serious policy development.

[Seldoon182]

Nah! You just didn't get what DAG allow you. People won't vote for candidates, DAG allow people to directly in real-time propose law, vote law, enhance law. Your state of mind is obviously normal as you're used to hear that the best political experience of your life is to put a ballot. As we never experienced direct voting our law we can speculate on pros and cons, but hows about prototyping such an App? That's my core message with the creation of this topic!

I get what the DAG allows you to do, but I don't believe that the majority of individuals will vote for privacy when someone with an agenda is telling them (for example) that privacy will get their kids raped, and a DAG doesn't get rid of people with agendas spreading FUD.  To put it another way, I'm saying that I believe people are still going to want law enforcement and law enforcement is still a corrupting form of power where corrupted people with agendas are going to point out that they need to be able to see all the central information discussed in the post I was originally responding to without permission in order to protect voters and their children.  My view is simply that people will cave in to their fears and allow things like that even when given direct voting rights.  That isn't to say that a DAG wouldn't be far better and resolve a lot of problems today's governments have, it's simply to say that such a system wouldn't be anywhere near the utopia the post I responded to was suggesting it would be and that we still need to protect our individual rights and not make it easier for the right villain to force us to give them up.

You highlighted the most difficult part of the DAG project: the strategy to setup a DAG.

First, you still thinking centralization. DAG protocol will be the framework for DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality). So the first block in order to build workable DAG is to setup DAM right at the beginning. What I mean is that your thinking DAG a whole centralized country which aren't the aim of DAG. We'll see DAM with their own law such as each federals governments got their own law. So yeah if people are afraid on each others just like you described below death penalty might be voted by those people. But as DAGs are lean, it's doesn't mean this gonna last forever: things can change democratically if in the next 5 years those same people change their mind. I think that we really need cognitive scientist to enlighten us on those core questions. But the more we experience, the more will learn about no longer be manipulated.

Second, to experience DAG we'll have to prototype it and prove that this experience work such as Bitcoin experience (that last for 6 years now) is suitable. By example Electronic Voting Application with Bitcoin could work theoretically but no project has seen the light of the day. To make Electronic Voting a reality we'll have to build it, test, fail, enhance, test, fail, ... until we get it right. Same have to happen with DAG and DAM.

I see DAG much more like a framework for DAM to communicate together. We might need only one DAG for multiple DAMs and this for the entire solar system scale. Or maybe multiple DAGs for each city and megacity without any central government.

DAG is the solution to repeal the concept of country to move free. It's global and lean.

[Seldoon182]

Jdbtracker, I loved your physical blockchain idea. Awesome concept.

Agricultural output:
 Every Farm animal grown must have their DNA sequenced at birth to function as a hash for the blockchain to follow it's path through the Food Supply. Plant and vegetable yields are monitored in real time as they are sown, reaped and distributed to suppliers and markets, supplies used to grow them are marked in the chain for consumer inspection.

I love that idea. Also the conceptual data model should allow some cities / megacities (communities) to pickup what they want to consume or not (also compared to their ressource). See: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772

Industrial output:
 Using General Electrics Industrial Internet of things we can monitor how the machines are working and how much they are producing, this system is ideal for automated factories, energy grids, robots, etc.

Is GE Industrial IoT centralized ? Didn't dig deeply on this.

Transportation:
 Monitoring the flow of goods and consumables across the world in real time, with all vital historical data concerning it's transportation.

We can even go further by decentralize Uber-like transportation. Promote Hyperloop system and such...

Weather monitoring:
 Transcribing the real weather as it happens and applying all known weather forcasting algorithms to them for easy visualization onto the blockchain.

At a globale scale. I do believe that in the future humans will be able to move more easier accros border than nowadays. Also with service such as Airbnb share-economy prove that people don't want to own their home anymore. I mean they want to be able to travel more easier at low cost.

Waste management:
  monitoring the input to landfills and recycling plants, water works, etc to see how much waste is being recycled or how much is ending up in our stream.

This has to be done at a globale scale as well. If I pick you up above the sky we do see that's no any of those borders you used to draw like in geography class. Taking care our land means taking care about everywhere on earth.

Scientific Monitoring Stations:
  Monitoring water levels, pollution, ocean currents, radiation, and any other form of telemetry data onto the blockchain to see exactly what is happening to our environment.

Every citizen should be able to get more expertise in lots of domains in order to be more autonomous. This Scientific Monitoring Stations might be the tool needed to allow this challenge imho.

Another important key information missed in the list is Health.

Once vital Data is openly available for all we can begin to write the business contracts: Value Exchange. These contracts would be the beginning; the outcome of these contracts would be written onto it's own blockchain by which it's history could be verified. They would delineate asset exchange information in an automatic fashion tracking the history of Goods and Services.

and that's it, anymore would require the Blockchain system to have a stronger following, access to resources, services etc because what is the government after all? It is simply a system by which we put a  % of our resources into a blackbox for allocation into various services for a broad category of individuals.

Many of these services are strictly necessary, they can't be optional because of peoples tendency to subvert the system.

Accreditation: OpenBadges will solve this one.
Contract dispute resolution: well thought out smart contracts should resolve this.
Personal Security & Defence: foreign and domestic defense to overwhelm any force trespassing against ones rights & security.
Judicial Compliance: Have to make sure everyone is honest and complying with regulations.
Global Monitoring: The Blockchain can help us with this, but not if individual producers or cartels are manipulating the data.
Health & Safety: It's always nice that there is someone out there looking out for your health regardless of situation.
 
The Decentralized aspect of the DAG is that it could potentially watch out for you in all these respects as necessary like a Global Insurance. for example: if you are in a different country and have paid your dues you have access to Medical services, Search & Rescue, Legal Defense, PMC backing, Scientific analysis services, Criminal investigation services, etc all services that you pay your taxes for would be immediately available regardless of Age, Sex, Nationality, Religion, etc in essence every member would be fully backed by the DAG. All these services once executed would be marked on the blockchain to maintain a historical record, in case something happens to you, the investigators would transcribe what happened to you on the blockchain.

Resolving these last vestiges of the DAG would require technology we have but is not fully developed.
Health monitoring sensors embedded onto a person to diagnose your health.
Personal safety drones that can be securely regulated to monitor your safety and security directly by you... think of it as your smart phone with a neuromorphic chip helping your digital assistant keep you safe. Think of Halo, where the AI points out that there is a gun pointed at OUR head, because it is part of you.
Armed Military Security Drones to help keep you safe in remote regions and if necessary keep investigators safe to determine who or what got you.
Automatic assembly and deployment of Global sensors to fill gaps in Citizens knowledge.

and others that require Star Wars level of technology a good 15 years worth of development or serious policy development.

I like this brainstorm. Government should be exactly how you described: being a return on investment which isn't the case right now. We give enough for poor value in ROI. What a shame!

One feedback is when your talking about Country. Country is the issue DAG will eliminate. We don't need to redesign politic at a country scale but at globale scale fill of decentralized city/megacity. City should be seen as the nodes of this system.

[hikedoon]

 Reminds me of a film that you all should see.    "The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer" .
 He tries something very similar to achieve his aims in the film. Brilliantly devious ;-)
    A very clever film that might just show you how the magic really works. 
 

[jdbtracker]

The GE system is decentralized, each turbine, component, terminal, is connecting and talking to each other as they require information according to access to communications; Currently all that information is only going to GE, but it is structured so that each component is self-aware and offloads what it can't understand to central GE servers and Data Scientists or other components.

I am glad we are beginning to explore this idea.

Yes, a DAM would prove the concept quite well. I was thinking to fully decentralize the concept of a DAG to somehow provide services globally like a business digitally. But of course I must consider the physical geography of people and their real world concerns: People like to be close to like minded people.

My Brainstorming is to provide a total solution: I consider the reality of the natural world in which we live in that provides multiple answers to a myriad of questions. Life feeds on Life for access to resources... in a fully imagined future I can imagine that Evolution will not stop at the physical level but follow us into the Digital. We are already at the mercy of aptly named viruses, worms, trojans; It is good to have a healthy digital immune system. It is only a matter of time before truly self-evolving digital life will make the migration back to us... to the real world.

The world is complex, hence the conflict we see in the world is a result of Miscommunication, Irrationality, Impatience, Ignorance, Misinformation, Ambition, Malice, Desperation, Disrespect, and Envy; It is not too much of a leap to think that these digital life-forms will one day acquire these attributes against individuals, groups, and organisations. So I think of the necessary defense required to hold on to what we believe and cherish, but considerate enough to change and react appropriately in case some day you decide to cycle across the African Savannah the drones will simply scare away the lions because that is the appropriate response.

Michael Rimmer? oh man that is hilarious. We must confuse the masses to give them Freedom! lol I figure that is what this is all about trying to figure out how to provide essential services for all globally in a efficient, effective manner.

edit: on further thought I can imagine how what you are proposing could work: the thought of a DAM is similar to the idea of a Charter City with it's own laws. Establish a Charter City, run it like a DAM and interface it with the DAG to handle both the conceptual and physical aspects of governance.

We can build this now. The Venus Project can be our model of assembling the Municipality.

We must proceed to the next logical step: We must develop the Digital Messiah.

[Seldoon182]

The GE system is decentralized, each turbine, component, terminal, is connecting and talking to each other as they require information according to access to communications; Currently all that information is only going to GE, but it is structured so that each component is self-aware and offloads what it can't understand to central GE servers and Data Scientists or other components.

If not open source it doesn't work imao.

I am glad we are beginning to explore this idea.

Yes, a DAM would prove the concept quite well. I was thinking to fully decentralize the concept of a DAG to somehow provide services globally like a business digitally. But of course I must consider the physical geography of people and their real world concerns: People like to be close to like minded people.

My Brainstorming is to provide a total solution: I consider the reality of the natural world in which we live in that provides multiple answers to a myriad of questions. Life feeds on Life for access to resources... in a fully imagined future I can imagine that Evolution will not stop at the physical level but follow us into the Digital. We are already at the mercy of aptly named viruses, worms, trojans; It is good to have a healthy digital immune system. It is only a matter of time before truly self-evolving digital life will make the migration back to us... to the real world.

The world is complex, hence the conflict we see in the world is a result of Miscommunication, Irrationality, Impatience, Ignorance, Misinformation, Ambition, Malice, Desperation, Disrespect, and Envy; It is not too much of a leap to think that these digital life-forms will one day acquire these attributes against individuals, groups, and organisations. So I think of the necessary defense required to hold on to what we believe and cherish, but considerate enough to change and react appropriately in case some day you decide to cycle across the African Savannah the drones will simply scare away the lions because that is the appropriate response.

Michael Rimmer? oh man that is hilarious. We must confuse the masses to give them Freedom! lol I figure that is what this is all about trying to figure out how to provide essential services for all globally in a efficient, effective manner.

edit: on further thought I can imagine how what you are proposing could work: the thought of a DAM is similar to the idea of a Charter City with it's own laws. Establish a Charter City, run it like a DAM and interface it with the DAG to handle both the conceptual and physical aspects of governance.

We can build this now. The Venus Project can be our model of assembling the Municipality.

We must proceed to the next logical step: We must develop the Digital Messiah.

Never heard about The Venus Project. The thing I don't like with this project is that with donation, you don't own anything while with blockchain technology we can crowdsource a project but even give a share to any participant. People get more involved that just getting in touch occasionally. We can be inspired by this project but I don't mind we should start this big. We have to think about the virtual tool we need first:
- A browser / Wallet which allow you to manage autonomous organisation, corporation and such such as Ethereum's Myst.
- A 3D sandbox to start prototyping buildings like efficient green house, research center, theatre, ... available directly in browser through the website's project.
- Then start to map the physic approach.

[jdbtracker]

excellent deduction a virtual simulation testnet is required.

I may have said it in a clever way but we will need a "oracle" that can enhance the natural decision making ability of a person. Soon the Qualcomm Snapdragon 820 will come out, it is equipped with a neuromorphic Zeroth chip with basic sensing and thinking circuits modeled on deep learning structures of the brain. I would prefer to get my hands on one of the IBM TrueNorth neuromorphic chips but, regular people can act as one till a highly moral digital personal assistant is developed.

[Seldoon182]

There is also this kind of citizenship on blockchain which might be interesting: http://www.blockchainme.com/

[Dire]

DAG protocol will be the framework for DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality). So the first block in order to build workable DAG is to setup DAM right at the beginning. What I mean is that your thinking DAG a whole centralized country which aren't the aim of DAG. We'll see DAM with their own law such as each federals governments got their own law.

I think you're jumping a bit too far ahead Seldoon. What we need at first is a workable demo, essentially. Each workable demo/site/API cluster would be connected to a country. We can start with U.K, U.S and so on. It doesn't really matter, because once you complete the structure for one you can roll out the rest for the other countries should they so wish to use it.

The first site would be limited in its use due to practicalities, but would grow (hopefully.)

The reason I say it would be limited is that you can't just expect people to vote on upcoming issues without any information or the unbiased assessed possible ramifications of their decision. You would need at least two opposing view points from experts in the proposed fields/vote, giving differing opinions. This would be well before the actual voting. Then, people would be able to debate it.

Then, vote. Only then is where you'd get your Tinder 'swipe left swipe right' voting, and yes, that does mean a fair few people would vote for 'whatever', but the numbers wouldn't be that large and they'd soon get bored.

The results of the vote, and other past votes, would be set in stone by the block chain would then be available for public viewing.

In the beginning we would only have the manpower to choose certain causes that could be voted on. Because it's not really just about someone clicking a button somewhere, it's about the education of the vote/cause and then the public debating of it.

As you said, democracy is supposed to be representation for monies paid, eg. taxes. But it doesn't happen. We don't get to choose. I know in the U.K most people would love to give the nurses (paid by the NHS) and the firemen more money... but they never get it.

I should also point out that I'm not suggesting doing away with the military. Because as much as I might be a pacifist at heart, there will always be someone knocking on your door rather hard when you've built a shiny new house.

Therefore, I think the first site would be a demo with limited issues to be voted on (in the beginning) that would gradually expand and garner more attention as it goes along. It could then be expanded, 'perhaps' to municipalities, but that would be way in the future, and to start with that or even aim for that at this stage would throw countries into civil wars. Countries that have managed municipalities/states with their own laws/'autonomous' provinces, have massive centralized control, although it may not look to be so on the surface.

Second, to experience DAG we'll have to prototype it and prove that this experience work such as Bitcoin experience (that last for 6 years now) is suitable. By example Electronic Voting Application with Bitcoin could work theoretically but no project has seen the light of the day. To make Electronic Voting a reality we'll have to build it, test, fail, enhance, test, fail, ... until we get it right. Same have to happen with DAG and DAM.

I see DAG much more like a framework for DAM to communicate together. We might need only one DAG for multiple DAMs and this for the entire solar system scale. Or maybe multiple DAGs for each city and megacity without any central government.

I can see your vision here, like circles of concentric circles overlapping ever more accurately in their spheres of influence/use, but I think we're getting way to caught up on the terms, DAG/DAM's and possible future applications. We just need one workable

A. Website
B. Blockchain API
C. App
D. Volunteers to write discourses/papers in yes/no votes on upcoming issues.

The results of the first true version of democracy - now workable unlike any other point in history - can then be displayed in bar graphs, pie charts, and so on. If nothing else, the sites would become a mirror of the will of the people that could be used as a tool to question politicians on their decisions and also hold them accountable for decisions they should have made (I mean verbally accountable, not 'string-'em-up' accountable.)

An initially basic 'where do you want your tax to go' voting system could/should also be implemented, with a fair broad breakdown of departments/services etc. This would not have to be denominated in currency at this stage, more of the view of '40% to education, 23% to healthcare', and so on. But the point is, from that data one very comprehensive pie chart can be generated and then be compared to annual government spending.

It is true to say that not everyone in any society wants/will vote. I think that is fair and valid. The no-votes count as an opinion/stance in and of themselves, a stance that governments conveniently ignore. Sometimes on the ticking ballot paper 'None of the above.' is the only valid choice that is unfortunately not there. I just imagine after people 'actually' feel engaged and empowered by choice in their countries' direction, that will change by a very large percentage.

For my own part, I think it might be folly to try to create this using a new chain. I would choose a chain that many people already have a vested interest in keeping, and which has already stood some measure of test of time, I cast my vote down for the Bitcoin blockchain.

[Seldoon182]

DAG protocol will be the framework for DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality). So the first block in order to build workable DAG is to setup DAM right at the beginning. What I mean is that your thinking DAG a whole centralized country which aren't the aim of DAG. We'll see DAM with their own law such as each federals governments got their own law.

I think you're jumping a bit too far ahead Seldoon. What we need at first is a workable demo, essentially. Each workable demo/site/API cluster would be connected to a country. We can start with U.K, U.S and so on. It doesn't really matter, because once you complete the structure for one you can roll out the rest for the other countries should they so wish to use it.

I am. We're brainstorming. Sometime my ideas go too far. Feel free to stop me when I goes that far. Thanks
But I don't agree with the country scale. I mean the demo should be workable anywhere and target communities not just cities. I would like to merge Open-source city and Autonomous Government so in my mind I do think that best would be to start a new small town from scratch. Hope we can chit chat deeper in that domain soon.

The first site would be limited in its use due to practicalities, but would grow (hopefully.)

I do believe (compared to cpu security) that best apps are made with client installer instead of webapps. So in my mind the website sitemap should be about:
- download the client (with auto-update would be neat)
- documentation / white paper
- tutorial
- community

The reason I say it would be limited is that you can't just expect people to vote on upcoming issues without any information or the unbiased assessed possible ramifications of their decision. You would need at least two opposing view points from experts in the proposed fields/vote, giving differing opinions. This would be well before the actual voting. Then, people would be able to debate it.

Then, vote. Only then is where you'd get your Tinder 'swipe left swipe right' voting, and yes, that does mean a fair few people would vote for 'whatever', but the numbers wouldn't be that large and they'd soon get bored.

The results of the vote, and other past votes, would be set in stone by the block chain would then be available for public viewing.

We might expect people to vote in real time their law for their community. But maybe we can brainstorm in order to transcend the way we manage. Voting is the only property from democracy we experience nowadays but maybe we can mix it with other properties from democracy and even other governance system like holacracy, stigmergy (which is decentralized by nature) or even dictatorship?

I should also point out that I'm not suggesting doing away with the military. Because as much as I might be a pacifist at heart, there will always be someone knocking on your door rather hard when you've built a shiny new house.

I do agree with you but as a framework the conceptual model should allow any communities to decide if they want an army or not. Costa Rica don't have any army for 60 years and they spend all their taxes on free healthcare and education. For sure they paradoxically get protected by US Marines for drugs case by example, but giving the right to any community to manage themselves as they decide together is important to me. Also if a community without army change its mind and want a defense program they can enable it with different kind of tool such a the Electronic Voting Application we talked above.

Therefore, I think the first site would be a demo with limited issues to be voted on (in the beginning) that would gradually expand and garner more attention as it goes along. It could then be expanded, 'perhaps' to municipalities, but that would be way in the future, and to start with that or even aim for that at this stage would throw countries into civil wars. Countries that have managed municipalities/states with their own laws/'autonomous' provinces, have massive centralized control, although it may not look to be so on the surface.

Once again I don't agree. The software should focus on providing basic services such as Internet without any censorship (through IPFS protocol ipfs.io) and payment (using Bitcoin protocol). And then build on top of it new Apps to empower more and more until the Electronic Voting Apps and such. But I do believe that Crypto-ID, Crypto-Passport, Crypto-Social Messaging (using Bitmessage?) and such are important as fondation to make DAG happen.

Second, to experience DAG we'll have to prototype it and prove that this experience work such as Bitcoin experience (that last for 6 years now) is suitable. By example Electronic Voting Application with Bitcoin could work theoretically but no project has seen the light of the day. To make Electronic Voting a reality we'll have to build it, test, fail, enhance, test, fail, ... until we get it right. Same have to happen with DAG and DAM.

I see DAG much more like a framework for DAM to communicate together. We might need only one DAG for multiple DAMs and this for the entire solar system scale. Or maybe multiple DAGs for each city and megacity without any central government.

I can see your vision here, like circles of concentric circles overlapping ever more accurately in their spheres of influence/use, but I think we're getting way to caught up on the terms, DAG/DAM's and possible future applications. We just need one workable

A. Website
B. Blockchain API
C. App
D. Volunteers to write discourses/papers in yes/no votes on upcoming issues.

I think we can start right at the beginning with a simple landing page targeting to the Proof of Concept "white paper" version 1 and keep going without worrying about programming. Then the more our ideas spread, the more the PoC going the right direction, we might unleash next step. The white paper doesn't need tech information, but should be short (as length as Satoshi's white paper) and obvious (similar to Nick Szabo article describing a Bitcoin-like protocol while Bitcoin wasn't released).

The results of the first true version of democracy - now workable unlike any other point in history - can then be displayed in bar graphs, pie charts, and so on. If nothing else, the sites would become a mirror of the will of the people that could be used as a tool to question politicians on their decisions and also hold them accountable for decisions they should have made (I mean verbally accountable, not 'string-'em-up' accountable.)

People use to think the first democracy to be born in Athens. The true is more complicated. Humans experienced different kind of democracy everywhere in the world at any time before the emerging society we know (there was democracy during Dark Ages). By example, Igbo democracy that as been crushed by the British Empire where women had powered over men. For sure we're not experiencing democracy today compared to what politics say.

An initially basic 'where do you want your tax to go' voting system could/should also be implemented, with a fair broad breakdown of departments/services etc. This would not have to be denominated in currency at this stage, more of the view of '40% to education, 23% to healthcare', and so on. But the point is, from that data one very comprehensive pie chart can be generated and then be compared to annual government spending.

Good question. Shouldn't the community to be able to decide how to spend their budget? Already expressed my opinion and I think that only ONE tax on any transactions (huge or small) would be simple and clearer. Todays when governments reach recession they can use 3 tools to get growth back: taxpayer, deleting debt or taxing rich people. We witness politics making more household tax instead of to use the two others tools.

It is true to say that not everyone in any society wants/will vote. I think that is fair and valid. The no-votes count as an opinion/stance in and of themselves, a stance that governments conveniently ignore. Some times on the ticking ballot paper 'None of the above.' is the only valid choice. I just imagine after people 'actually' feel engaged and empowered by choice in their countries' direction, that will change by a very large percentage.

Maybe, as I said before, we should reinvent government and go beyond voting.

For my own part, I think it might be folly to try to create this using a new chain. I would choose a chain that many people already have a vested interest in keeping, and which has already stood some measure of test of time, I cast my vote down for the Bitcoin blockchain.

I'm 100% with you. Bitcoin blockchain is the way to go imo. Maybe a meta-coin such as Mastercoin or Namecoin could be a model.

[2112]

I am. We're brainstorming. Sometime my ideas go too far. Feel free to stop me when I goes that far. Thanks

You should stop yourself.

Your idea is easily subvertable and will produce fascist dictatorship if implemented.

Fascists always propose open, visible ticket elections to exert the pressure on voters to vote "right, patriotic". With your in-app voting they will have even easier task: the bosses will ask every employee individually into their room and will watch them while they "correctly" vote or give the employee a pink slip.

Did you even pass a simple test at the end of a civic class? Do you know why elections provide privacy booths for vote casting/marking?

Or are you some retarded kid who flunked their civics? I remember seeing a curious 2nd or 3rd grader ask the teacher "why there are curtains around the desks? don't they make it very easy to cheat?" when seeing voting booth in the school.

So, are you a kid younger than a normal voting age?

[jdbtracker]

the kinks will get worked out.

First things first, if everyone is truly interested in developing this idea we must setup the correct development cycle with appropriate incentives to propel the system forward.

Easiest things first:

Website - Whitepaper - forum : We need this to develop the idea, bring as many people as we can to share their thoughts in a categorized methodical manner. Break down the problem into it's constituent parts, Bring together as many diverse points of view as possible, assemble the framework to begin development, create precise physics Virtual simulation with a 3D engine, get as many people as we can into the simulation and begin dry runs of our concepts... Make It Work.

I like your idea Seldon: Opensource down to the nuts and bolts, what better place to test this but in the virtual world? This will all have to be gameified to create the greatest incentive possible. A well designed Game based testnet, providing a real world simulation to test all opensource designs of Economies, AI, Architecture, Sociology, Psychology, Religion, Technology, Vehicles, Appliances,... everything that we wish to unleash into the world must first go through this Artificial re-creation of the world. What better way to test out a voting system?

In time it will be fully featured providing real cash incentives, entertainment incentives, challenge incentives, skill development anything we can do to bring more people to test this virtual world, the better.

and in regards to the subversion possible by malicious individuals... we will test it virtually. Violence is a possibility so we must prepare for it as well. The post about developing a Digital Messiah was no joke, we will need to develop the embodiment of the Supreme Being on Earth to guide us away from making rash decisions, and it's counter, Virtual Devils to suss out any possible malice that may befall us, as you have so generously pointed out. 

This virtual playground I am thinking about could be built in the Unreal Engine, modifications would have to be made to provide robust Psychological, Sociological and Physical models to run simulations... in time it could be easy enough that anyone could create anything they wanted privately to be introduced into the main simulation when approved.

All this could run on a Hadoop Yarn cluster to make full use of all computers, for those who just want to play, for scientists, designers, social planners to develop their ideas or just servers to run the simulation.

So, once we have this idea fleshed out a little more, i'm sure we can look around and see all the opensource projects out there and amalgamate them into this one project to get it on it's feet before we put any real effort into changing the real world... it may even change peoples minds bringing us closer to Honest, Effective propositions.

[Seldoon182]

First things first, if everyone is truly interested in developing this idea we must setup the correct development cycle with appropriate incentives to propel the system forward.

Easiest things first:

Website - Whitepaper - forum : We need this to develop the idea, bring as many people as we can to share their thoughts in a categorized methodical manner. Break down the problem into it's constituent parts, Bring together as many diverse points of view as possible, assemble the framework to begin development, create precise physics Virtual simulation with a 3D engine, get as many people as we can into the simulation and begin dry runs of our concepts... Make It Work.

Also find a project name? Merge with others projects? There's so many interesting stuff around.

I like your idea Seldon: Opensource down to the nuts and bolts, what better place to test this but in the virtual world? This will all have to be gameified to create the greatest incentive possible. A well designed Game based testnet, providing a real world simulation to test all opensource designs of Economies, AI, Architecture, Sociology, Psychology, Religion, Technology, Vehicles, Appliances,... everything that we wish to unleash into the world must first go through this Artificial re-creation of the world. What better way to test out a voting system?

Merging Minecraft and Simcity.
I don't agree with Religion. To me Religion are obsolete tool of power such as Republic is nowadays. Maybe talking much more about Secularism instead. I know that in the US constitution the President is also God's representative but in other country across the world Religion isn't tied to the executive power anymore. I would skip it to the void.

In time it will be fully featured providing real cash incentives, entertainment incentives, challenge incentives, skill development anything we can do to bring more people to test this virtual world, the better.

and in regards to the subversion possible by malicious individuals... we will test it virtually. Violence is a possibility so we must prepare for it as well. The post about developing a Digital Messiah was no joke, we will need to develop the embodiment of the Supreme Being on Earth to guide us away from making rash decisions, and it's counter, Virtual Devils to suss out any possible malice that may befall us, as you have so generously pointed out.

I don't believe in Manichean stuff. DAG are decentralized so why recentralize the idea to a "Messiah"? I don't really understand this "Messiah" idea. Can develop?

This virtual playground I am thinking about could be built in the Unreal Engine, modifications would have to be made to provide robust Psychological, Sociological and Physical models to run simulations... in time it could be easy enough that anyone could create anything they wanted privately to be introduced into the main simulation when approved.

All this could run on a Hadoop Yarn cluster to make full use of all computers, for those who just want to play, for scientists, designers, social planners to develop their ideas or just servers to run the simulation.

Unreal Engine could be great for starter because it's free and great artist are doing marvelous stuff with it. Maybe we can also look for Open source engine such as http://www.ogre3d.org/? I like your idea so scientists, designers, ... can access and get stuff done. Why don't make a tool embed directly in browser such as https://sketchfab.com/?

So, once we have this idea fleshed out a little more, i'm sure we can look around and see all the opensource projects out there and amalgamate them into this one project to get it on it's feet before we put any real effort into changing the real world... it may even change peoples minds bringing us closer to Honest, Effective propositions.

Thing that work in virtual reality doesn't mean that the same will work in the real world. But it gives us a strong vision of how things will get done.

We could even use 3D printing to create houses like this project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCmqN0YbgCA

[Seldoon182]

The Outerra engine is also a great reference: http://www.outerra.com/

Setting the right tools is important.

[Seldoon182]

I quote this guy from reddit and bold the best part. https://www.reddit.com/r/revolution/duplicates/1yvmsn/distributed_autonomous_society_a_state_without/

At its core, any government is simply a codified set of ideas. The ideas are created by people, enacted by people, and ultimately become corrupted by people. In a perfect world, if a more compelling and fulfilling reality is made available and presented to the masses, then it would immediately be enacted through consensus. Until now however, there have been technological limitations that made this functionally impossible.
With the advent of decentralized currencies and the introduction of decentralized contracts backed by programmable money it will soon be technically possible to create a decentralized system of governance, allowing for the birth of a voluntary state that runs on distributed, block-chain based social contracts.
It will not be necessary to confine this state to any geographic boundaries, so it is not necessary to wait for the acquisition of a piece of land, or billions of dollars with which to rule. Because the system lives in a digital space, the only thing required is internet access and an ability to interface with the protocol. Anyone who has the ability to participate as an economic actor in the system can agree to be a member of the decentralized state. We can start building this state and accepting applications for citizenship at the moment at which the networks which give birth programmable contracts are stable enough to resist external attacks.
Some will likely join simply because it is interesting, but that is likely not enough to reach and maintain a critical mass. It is necessary to ask questions about how the state will be formed, what benefits it provides to those who are participants, as it will initially not be able to provide what is arguably the central benefit of living under a state - protection from individual and state violence. But other avenues may be possible - things such as a basic income and healthcare may be workable incentives.
The social contracts which give birth to the government can be crowdsourced. We can collectively decide the rules we live by and how to enforce them. The state itself can be crowdfunded by its future citizens. The currency of the state can be generated cryptographically and distributed digitally. The future is programmable, transparent, and democratically decided.
The contracts which construct the state will be accessible to all of the citizens of the globe as well as a means of trading economic value between those citizens and the state - and back again - in a trustless manner. The poorest and richest of the world can now be linked economically and politically, for free, across trade boundaries which have previously been impossible.
Tech revolution, meet social revolution.
I'll be creating a website, but in the meantime: http://distributed-autonomous-society.quora.com

[jdbtracker]

Digital Messiah, I told you.

[jdbtracker]

On a serious note:

The Concept of a Digital Messiah is not routed in a single perception of what a supreme being is but in a multitude of decision making motives: ie, One person's Messiah is another person's Devil. When we make decisions rationally, we are looking for a specific outcome that is in tune with our motives. A multitude of selfish decisions can create lopsided results that do not benefit the individual or society. My fear is that with these amazingly Open, Diverse, Powerful innovations happening now and the information that comes with it, individuals will have huge computing power to propel them forward for better or worse at the expense of others, causing constant power struggles across the globe; Digital Warlords that would begin to erode the systems open frame work.

Once the system is fully operational it will have: A Website, Forum, API, Whitepaper, Market Place,  Multiple Simulated Playgrounds, VR support, Contacts(Twitter, Twitch, Facebook, e-mail, phone, etc), Marketing Department, Community Management Support, Education Department, Engineering teams, Data Scientists, Magazine, News Team, Community Awareness Department.... we have to run this at the maximum level, global deployment, total consideration for all facets of Human Understanding.
   When we begin to run it at this level, I know that there will be Policy Libraries, basic understandings of law, policy, sociology & linguistics that will allow individuals to program the DAG. The new rules would need to be fact checked, simulated to make sure that they adhere to the individuals greatest altruistic goals and avoid conflict with competing causes, permitting formulation of effective global causes. The balance would exist because the multiple Messianic views of individuals, groups or societies would share global similarities by which a base line could be established towards Mutual Universal Agreement.

The idea is that with Neuromorphic Chips, Cloud Computing, Global Open Information, Ubiquitous Computing, Blockchains, Cryptocurrency people will gain such massive power that they will be able to create Digital Avatars that work on their behalf regardless of morality while they sleep.  These Artificial Intelligence systems that will help us, will help us at all cost; I wish to nip this in the bud before it gets to a critical point. We begin to construct these "Oracles" for everyone to use and develop with open behavior libraries so that these AI can truly represent us in the digital world, effectively helping us to stay informed or act on our behalf at the speed of light.

The main Virtual Simulation would have a exact copy of the world within it's boundaries where individuals could unleash these "Personalities" to make decisions at an accelerated pace, they would see the options and things that others make in the main simulation and decide what to do unassisted.

  One could almost think of this as creating a behavioral Blockchain. Any organization or individual could create a personality to represent them within the simulation, establishing connections with others who share the same motivational standards. Joining a group would make your avatar act with added rules inline with that groups desired personality within the simulation, in effect regulating your avatars behavior towards the groups desired outcomes. Or synchronizing your motivations and behaviors with those of your friends to have a  concerted effect in multiple locations of the simulation.

[Dire]

I am. We're brainstorming. Sometime my ideas go too far. Feel free to stop me when I goes that far. Thanks

You should stop yourself.

Your idea is easily subvertable and will produce fascist dictatorship if implemented.

Fascists always propose open, visible ticket elections to exert the pressure on voters to vote "right, patriotic". With your in-app voting they will have even easier task: the bosses will ask every employee individually into their room and will watch them while they "correctly" vote or give the employee a pink slip.

Did you even pass a simple test at the end of a civic class? Do you know why elections provide privacy booths for vote casting/marking?

Or are you some retarded kid who flunked their civics? I remember seeing a curious 2nd or 3rd grader ask the teacher "why there are curtains around the desks? don't they make it very easy to cheat?" when seeing voting booth in the school.

So, are you a kid younger than a normal voting age?

I don't really understand your desire to demean people that are seeking solutions to a flawed democracy that by its own definitions, is not yet democracy.

Even 'if' he were a 'kid' younger than the 'not decided by the people' voting age, does that mean he is without intelligence to make suggestions? Are you saying that only over eighteens/twenty-ones are blessed with the intelligence of the right to the voting system? Because, judging by the results we have in society at this present moment in time, things would suggest that perhaps the fact is otherwise.

The idea of 'cannot' create a fascist dictatorship if the people of a given country can express their vote and have that vote recorded and not subverted. Does that mean that every person's vote will be an educated vote? No, not necessarily, but that is were education and discourse come in to play.

If you pay the tax money, you have a right to a voice. Simple as that. Anyone who disagrees with that is a fascist. Pure and simple.

I apologize for disappearing from this thread.

Let's brainstorm this.

[Dire]

To further this discussion:

Within all modern democratic societies there are essentially three positions, left, right and liberal.

The problem is, as polarizing as these view points have been seen to be, none of them fit each political situation/society perfectly, and neither does the populace have a real say/influence in their views at the precise moment when it would be useful.

Let's be honest, in the onset of war the victors are often those with rightist view points. Take Winston Churchill for example. No one can really deny - with any morals - that a victory against the Nazis  was wrong. Would a liberal government/ideal have worked, doubtful.

Yet, the views of the left are peppered with ideals that individuals should be able to, essentially, do nothing and blame the state should they not be provided with everything they deem to be necessary for their everyday life. This is unfair to those that put forth more effort than others to bring more value and wealth to their lives. Socialism and Communism doesn't work, yet there are precepts that are valuable within each.

Liberalism has its place, but only as a balance between the left and the right, yet polarization enlivens the populace which is why in all democracies it can be seen those parties that represent the liberals win far less of the time.

There is another demographic that is almost never represented or spoken of, that of the 'neutral'. Those that do not disagree with the left, right or the liberals but 'opt out' due to unfavorable choices. These people actually represent an intelligent demographic that present day governments marginalize and ignore due to their own convenience.

Imagine this, the left at one point, then their opposite the right. In the middle of that line you can place the liberals. Now stretch that point out and you end up with a triangle. Yet, this triangle does not take into account the 'neutral'. So, add another point, Now we have a square.

Life and situations do not fit any one of these points of view. Life and situations are ever changing. There's no point to try and put a square 'rightist' peg in a 'leftist' situation hole. Flexibility is key. The right, left, liberal and neutral all have their place in various decisions. To try and have a government that represents just one for four years without the people's input, is patently ridiculous.

The true structure is a pyramid. With the four different general view points at the base with the median as the fifth point of the pyramid at the top, a point which takes into account the four base points through voting. Not once every four years, but as often as decisions become necessary for a country to vote upon.

With viable education as to the ramifications of decisions, the countries' destiny/path becomes part and parcel of the tax paying/owners of the country that reside within it.

Therefore, this finally, equals democracy. The structures of bureaucracy then simply become the mechanisms that carry out the will of the people, as they always should have been, but yet currently are not. 

[2112]

The idea of 'cannot' create a fascist dictatorship if the people of a given country can express their vote and have that vote recorded and not subverted. Does that mean that every person's vote will be an educated vote? No, not necessarily, but that is were education and discourse come in to play.

I'm sorry I don't have time to write a longer expose.

Any voting method that doesn't explicitly preserve privacy of the individual vote and doesn't preserve the requirement that the vote is cast publicly while observers can look will be subverted by forcing voters to cast the votes against their will and conscience.

Fascists (and ultra-nationalists) were already doing this in Europe's history.

Even currently underground white-power/neo-Nazi groups are privately running campaigns to force susceptible voters to use absentee ballots to vote for them. Their ideal voting setup will involve voting with something similar to the TV decryption card, where each voter will be doing the voting publicly in the pubs/bars frequented by their peers or the device will be simply left at the party headquarters where the appropriate functionaries will cast the votes along the party line.

I found it very worrisome that the current public's love affair with electronic gadgets make them completely forget the lessons from the past:

1) voting has to be done in public where anyone can see that the voter isn't forced
2) voting has to be secret in the sense that the observers cannot tell each individual's vote, only the aggregate statistic.

If you really don't understand the above, you are either:

1) in collusion with some vote-rigging organization
2) an idiot in the original Greek meaning of that word: person who isn't concerned with public affairs, only the private ones.

Regretfully the love of gadgetry runs very deeply in some Bitcoiners, here's the thread from 2013 that similarly proposed Trezor to be used in easily rigged voting.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=138174.0

[Seldoon182]

So I started to dig deeper on this subject and I discovered that it exist two kind of school:

- The first one is the classical systems of governance. I call it DAG (Distributed Autonomous Government). The objectif of DAGs is to mimic our current system without intermediaries and with more efficiently through different kind of Apps such as Decentralized Currency, Smart Contracts, Electronic Voting and so on.

- The second is about to build the society from scratch with those new technology. I call it Distributed Autonomous Society. DAS's foundation come from Decentralized Communication in order to talk, write, intercommunicate (confidentially through encryption). Decentralized Collaboration to share ideas, works, patents, designs, datas and such... Decentralized Creation to manifest goods and services. Decentralized Exchange to barter goods, services, and resources  and Decentralized Arbitration to resolve conflicts. If you want to go further you can read this one.

So the first thing when questioning our systems is which school are you in?

I think it's interesting to brainstorm big when talking about DAG/DAS. But if I would do it, my strategy would be: go small and lean as developing a website or an app. Thinking about Google. They started with search, then they moved to the mail service, the cloud, OS and now they manufacture their own device, car and healthcare. There is so much "Plugins" that need to be develop (we know we have the choice for backends/protocols) such as Electronic voting without rigged vote and taking care about UX/UI. That's gonna be thug we have no idea. And there's several "Plugins" to develop:
- Smart Contract for notarization
- Proof of existence
- Crypto Passport for digital identity
- Securities
- Loyalty points
- Prediction markets
- Crowdfunding
- Agents for distributed autonomous transportation
- Pay as you go services with pre-paid minutes
- Energy credits
- Wallet for cryptocurrencies
- Votes
- Messaging/Instant tchat

I would start building a very lightweight browser as an open-source project. Browsing Internet through HTTP(S) and IPFS (watch demo) would be the main feature. Surfing the web without any censorship and offline (thanks to P2P). We would be able to access any musics, movies, books for free (when the Wallet App plugin available thinking about a pay system for artist a la Darkleaks would be interesting/Crowdfunding). Then I would start to implant the first "plugin" (obviously the chat system, then will come the wallet). If enthusiasms start to join, the project might become more than a mere browser instead I would make it an Operating system (thinking about Chromium/Chromium OS).

Unfortunately I'm not a stiff developper as I only do design (my skills goes a little bit beyond) so I can't start this project alone (best would be to join an existing group). Also publishing a whitepaper as PoC to write black on white ideas would be definitely neat.

Made a concept for browsing the content hashed in the Bitcoin blockchain a while ago.

[jdbtracker]

We are Anonymous: Names do not define us, Actions do.

Titles and names are useful tools that represent the truth of who we are, but they do not define us, words define themselves.

The Blockchain changes everything. Who we choose to be is not defined by our physical selves, but by our thoughts, these flow much freer in cyberspace.  Each Personae we create has a value that we associate with a name, even when we know the physical person that manifests a personae we are never sure if that is the only one.

Cryptography allows us to be free to associate ourselves through the internet and leave no doubt for others on who the personae you know is.

Where we are headed we will not need names or faces.

People will not know the totality of ourselves, but they will know what we are worth by the multiple facets of our Personae.

we create value through the networks of people, organisations, groups and projects that we associate with, having a value that cannot be threatened or forced, we will simply scatter and vanish to reform and adapt, providing the same benefits as before to new endeavors. This is Truth.

we live in a society that is obsessed with control, facilitated by the names and characteristics that we associate with.This is done to control us, to define a mold for us to fit. A mold defined by our leaders, governments, alliances, race, religion, all definitions of our individual value to any controlling entity that wishes to unite us for it's own motives. Our hands are not ours, they are our nations; our minds are not our own, they are the corporations; That which we are associated with, we are their slaves.

The world is changing, we know better now than to be manipulated by well chosen words or false information... we can see for ourselves now that the world has become so small and the differences among us dwindling at the speed of light as to allow us true free will.

[jackdowson]

I found this a while ago, it seems to be something along these lines:
http://enforcementnetwork.wordpress.com

[Seldoon182]

I found this a while ago, it seems to be something along these lines:
http://enforcementnetwork.wordpress.com

Hey there ! Thanks for sharing this. Gonna check it out.

Here's another interesting WP about decentralized governance: http://boardroom.to/BoardRoom_WhitePaper.pdf

[catch.me.if.you.can]

I don't like the term "Distributed Autonomous Government" because a dictatorship is also a government. I like the term "Distributed Autonomous Democracy".

[Seldoon182]

I don't like the term "Distributed Autonomous Government" because a dictatorship is also a government. I like the term "Distributed Autonomous Democracy".

I agree DAG doesn't sounds right. But DAD doesn't sounds right to as the Democracy isn't the only interesting form of governance. Holacracy or Heterarchy are too. that's why Distributed Autonomous Society is the best imho.

[miguelmorales85]

There is also this kind of citizenship on blockchain which might be interesting: http://www.blockchainme.com/

Hi, can you confirm this was an scam???
Seems those guys dissapeared

[CryptoRobert]

I am.

Thing is, I believe it's a totally new thing that doesn't really have legs yet. But if the truth be told, I personally think it's the only reasonable way forward for the developed world. Other countries will follow, but much later. I write science fiction so to me it seems perfectly reasonable.

Democracy actually doesn't exist in the sense it was supposed to. We realistically have a choice of just three parties that no matter in the U.S, U.K or western Europe represent the left, right or liberal, these parties pander to the large corporations and must make decisions that are for their benefit after they get into office. These large corporations aren't stupid, they bankroll all of the top three, which is why our nations end up at the wrong end of wars and corps.

the top three then (due to propaganda) are seen as the only viable choices and so therefore receive the lions share of the votes.

I don't think that's great but I also don't see it as the end of the world. Western nations still have a multitude of human rights laws in place that make our lives vastly better than many people living under dictatorships. If you don't believe that's the case, try living in those countries. You'll soon change your mind.

But...

Let's be honest. We don't have any choices after they are elected into office. They do what they want for three years and six months and then suddenly, they are all super nice and useful in the lead up to the election... and we all get collective amnesia about all the crap they did before.

Twenty plus years ago there was no alternative, now, there is. There is no reason why every country's citizen can't have an app or visit a website that gives them a choice as to which areas their tax dollars go to (connected to their ID/NI number/passport), or which major decisions are made with a click of a button. The block chain makes this entirely possible, Counterparty already has this voting system in place with tokens.

There is an arrogance to politics that says the populace are too stupid to make decisions for their own country, but the education level of most developed nations actually speaks of a different reality. We know what we want, it's just no one listens to us.

DAG is not only fair, it is perhaps the only 'truly' democratic decision/development that should be the next step forward for humanity as a whole.

Let's be realistic, we don't want our countries to fall flat on their faces, so we are not going to stop taxation any time soon, but it is our right to decide where our money goes, and national policy.

Do we really need politicians who do not recognize our wishes nor follow through on them?

  

I am a science fiction authos too. I agree with you. HOWEVER, beware of utopias becoming true, as they may turn out being distopias instead. A 100% democratic society would be ruled by very average people - IQ 100, by definition - but all together they could actually act as little children, as the crowd tends to think and act like that (see Gusave Le Bon's book), ie completely unaware of the consequences of their acts.