Distributed Autonomous Society

[Seldoon182]

but at the end of the day, if people as a collective are voting, they will never be smart enough to be fair for everyone and fear will always guide the system.

People vote as a collective now. Few parties have the money to campaign/advertise, those that do affect the collective to a greater or lesser degree. Many decisions if presented correctly with enough information are easily decided upon. It doesn't need a degree in rocket science. To suggest that human beings are all too stupid to make decisions governing policy means you may just as well chuck democracy out of the window all together... because people are too stupid to vote.

There are a lot of stupid laws due to a lot of stupid fears, and there is a lot of stupid propaganda to drive that fear, and a DAG wouldn't change either of those things because there are a lot of stupid people.

So circular logic is the order of the day is it? Let's forget about progress because stupid people prevent progress and we'll only go backwards anyway so better not to bother in the first place. With that attitude, we might as well all live in dictatorships with Daddy-Director guiding our every decisions (as we do now) because we're too stupid to make them.

One moment while I prostrate myself to the superior intellects of the ruling classes.

Elitism and arrogance of assumption about people's intelligence and ability to make valid choices about their life and country is the beginning and end of fascism. Control the sheep, for they know not where they go.

Millions have died for the freedom of choice and sanctity of human rights and individuality over hundreds/thousands of years that we now have, and you'd like to put a halt to its natural development? Because people are stupid.

Re-read my entire post.  I didn't say we should put a halt to our development, I didn't say we shouldn't have a DAG, and I didn't suggest that anyone shouldn't be able to vote.  I simply stated that even with a DAG, fear and money will rule the day and our rights will continue to be stripped.  Because it wasn't clear, I will also point out that my comments regarding stupid people were meant to refer to people in groups / the masses / sheeple.  It was not meant to refer to a majority of individuals or allude that only individuals outside of that majority should have a say in their lives.

Nah! You just didn't get what DAG allow you. People won't vote for candidates, DAG allow people to directly in real-time propose law, vote law, enhance law. Your state of mind is obviously normal as you're used to hear that the best political experience of your life is to put a ballot. As we never experienced direct voting our law we can speculate on pros and cons, but hows about prototyping such an App? That's my core message with the creation of this topic!

[The00Dustin]

Nah! You just didn't get what DAG allow you. People won't vote for candidates, DAG allow people to directly in real-time propose law, vote law, enhance law. Your state of mind is obviously normal as you're used to hear that the best political experience of your life is to put a ballot. As we never experienced direct voting our law we can speculate on pros and cons, but hows about prototyping such an App? That's my core message with the creation of this topic!

I get what the DAG allows you to do, but I don't believe that the majority of individuals will vote for privacy when someone with an agenda is telling them (for example) that privacy will get their kids raped, and a DAG doesn't get rid of people with agendas spreading FUD.  To put it another way, I'm saying that I believe people are still going to want law enforcement and law enforcement is still a corrupting form of power where corrupted people with agendas are going to point out that they need to be able to see all the central information discussed in the post I was originally responding to without permission in order to protect voters and their children.  My view is simply that people will cave in to their fears and allow things like that even when given direct voting rights.  That isn't to say that a DAG wouldn't be far better and resolve a lot of problems today's governments have, it's simply to say that such a system wouldn't be anywhere near the utopia the post I responded to was suggesting it would be and that we still need to protect our individual rights and not make it easier for the right villain to force us to give them up.

[jdbtracker]

I was thinking about that: sheeple, Can't do much about those, but we must concede that the world is incredibly complex, so we have to make the answer as complex as possible to make it difficult to manipulate those aforementioned sheeple.

What I am thinking now, is avoid the policy question for now and build the statistics system from which the smart contracts can reference for information.

Key information would be:

Agricultural output:
 Every Farm animal grown must have their DNA sequenced at birth to function as a hash for the blockchain to follow it's path through the Food Supply. Plant and vegetable yields are monitored in real time as they are sown, reaped and distributed to suppliers and markets, supplies used to grow them are marked in the chain for consumer inspection.

Industrial output:
 Using General Electrics Industrial Internet of things we can monitor how the machines are working and how much they are producing, this system is ideal for automated factories, energy grids, robots, etc.

Transportation:
 Monitoring the flow of goods and consumables across the world in real time, with all vital historical data concerning it's transportation.

Weather monitoring:
 Transcribing the real weather as it happens and applying all known weather forcasting algorithms to them for easy visualization onto the blockchain.

Waste management:
  monitoring the input to landfills and recycling plants, water works, etc to see how much waste is being recycled or how much is ending up in our stream.

Scientific Monitoring Stations:
  Monitoring water levels, pollution, ocean currents, radiation, and any other form of telemetry data onto the blockchain to see exactly what is happening to our environment.

 All relevant data should be transcribed onto a blockchain for instant access to secure verified censorship proof information for the Smart Contracts to evaluate.

Once vital Data is openly available for all we can begin to write the business contracts: Value Exchange. These contracts would be the beginning; the outcome of these contracts would be written onto it's own blockchain by which it's history could be verified. They would delineate asset exchange information in an automatic fashion tracking the history of Goods and Services.

and that's it, anymore would require the Blockchain system to have a stronger following, access to resources, services etc because what is the government after all? It is simply a system by which we put a  % of our resources into a blackbox for allocation into various services for a broad category of individuals.

Many of these services are strictly necessary, they can't be optional because of peoples tendency to subvert the system.

Accreditation: OpenBadges will solve this one.
Contract dispute resolution: well thought out smart contracts should resolve this.
Personal Security & Defence: foreign and domestic defense to overwhelm any force trespassing against ones rights & security.
Judicial Compliance: Have to make sure everyone is honest and complying with regulations.
Global Monitoring: The Blockchain can help us with this, but not if individual producers or cartels are manipulating the data.
Health & Safety: It's always nice that there is someone out there looking out for your health regardless of situation.
 
The Decentralized aspect of the DAG is that it could potentially watch out for you in all these respects as necessary like a Global Insurance. for example: if you are in a different country and have paid your dues you have access to Medical services, Search & Rescue, Legal Defense, PMC backing, Scientific analysis services, Criminal investigation services, etc all services that you pay your taxes for would be immediately available regardless of Age, Sex, Nationality, Religion, etc in essence every member would be fully backed by the DAG. All these services once executed would be marked on the blockchain to maintain a historical record, in case something happens to you, the investigators would transcribe what happened to you on the blockchain.

Resolving these last vestiges of the DAG would require technology we have but is not fully developed.
Health monitoring sensors embedded onto a person to diagnose your health.
Personal safety drones that can be securely regulated to monitor your safety and security directly by you... think of it as your smart phone with a neuromorphic chip helping your digital assistant keep you safe. Think of Halo, where the AI points out that there is a gun pointed at OUR head, because it is part of you.
Armed Military Security Drones to help keep you safe in remote regions and if necessary keep investigators safe to determine who or what got you.
Automatic assembly and deployment of Global sensors to fill gaps in Citizens knowledge.

and others that require Star Wars level of technology a good 15 years worth of development or serious policy development.

[Seldoon182]

Nah! You just didn't get what DAG allow you. People won't vote for candidates, DAG allow people to directly in real-time propose law, vote law, enhance law. Your state of mind is obviously normal as you're used to hear that the best political experience of your life is to put a ballot. As we never experienced direct voting our law we can speculate on pros and cons, but hows about prototyping such an App? That's my core message with the creation of this topic!

I get what the DAG allows you to do, but I don't believe that the majority of individuals will vote for privacy when someone with an agenda is telling them (for example) that privacy will get their kids raped, and a DAG doesn't get rid of people with agendas spreading FUD.  To put it another way, I'm saying that I believe people are still going to want law enforcement and law enforcement is still a corrupting form of power where corrupted people with agendas are going to point out that they need to be able to see all the central information discussed in the post I was originally responding to without permission in order to protect voters and their children.  My view is simply that people will cave in to their fears and allow things like that even when given direct voting rights.  That isn't to say that a DAG wouldn't be far better and resolve a lot of problems today's governments have, it's simply to say that such a system wouldn't be anywhere near the utopia the post I responded to was suggesting it would be and that we still need to protect our individual rights and not make it easier for the right villain to force us to give them up.

You highlighted the most difficult part of the DAG project: the strategy to setup a DAG.

First, you still thinking centralization. DAG protocol will be the framework for DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality). So the first block in order to build workable DAG is to setup DAM right at the beginning. What I mean is that your thinking DAG a whole centralized country which aren't the aim of DAG. We'll see DAM with their own law such as each federals governments got their own law. So yeah if people are afraid on each others just like you described below death penalty might be voted by those people. But as DAGs are lean, it's doesn't mean this gonna last forever: things can change democratically if in the next 5 years those same people change their mind. I think that we really need cognitive scientist to enlighten us on those core questions. But the more we experience, the more will learn about no longer be manipulated.

Second, to experience DAG we'll have to prototype it and prove that this experience work such as Bitcoin experience (that last for 6 years now) is suitable. By example Electronic Voting Application with Bitcoin could work theoretically but no project has seen the light of the day. To make Electronic Voting a reality we'll have to build it, test, fail, enhance, test, fail, ... until we get it right. Same have to happen with DAG and DAM.

I see DAG much more like a framework for DAM to communicate together. We might need only one DAG for multiple DAMs and this for the entire solar system scale. Or maybe multiple DAGs for each city and megacity without any central government.

DAG is the solution to repeal the concept of country to move free. It's global and lean.

[Seldoon182]

Jdbtracker, I loved your physical blockchain idea. Awesome concept.

Agricultural output:
 Every Farm animal grown must have their DNA sequenced at birth to function as a hash for the blockchain to follow it's path through the Food Supply. Plant and vegetable yields are monitored in real time as they are sown, reaped and distributed to suppliers and markets, supplies used to grow them are marked in the chain for consumer inspection.

I love that idea. Also the conceptual data model should allow some cities / megacities (communities) to pickup what they want to consume or not (also compared to their ressource). See: http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?newsID=20772

Industrial output:
 Using General Electrics Industrial Internet of things we can monitor how the machines are working and how much they are producing, this system is ideal for automated factories, energy grids, robots, etc.

Is GE Industrial IoT centralized ? Didn't dig deeply on this.

Transportation:
 Monitoring the flow of goods and consumables across the world in real time, with all vital historical data concerning it's transportation.

We can even go further by decentralize Uber-like transportation. Promote Hyperloop system and such...

Weather monitoring:
 Transcribing the real weather as it happens and applying all known weather forcasting algorithms to them for easy visualization onto the blockchain.

At a globale scale. I do believe that in the future humans will be able to move more easier accros border than nowadays. Also with service such as Airbnb share-economy prove that people don't want to own their home anymore. I mean they want to be able to travel more easier at low cost.

Waste management:
  monitoring the input to landfills and recycling plants, water works, etc to see how much waste is being recycled or how much is ending up in our stream.

This has to be done at a globale scale as well. If I pick you up above the sky we do see that's no any of those borders you used to draw like in geography class. Taking care our land means taking care about everywhere on earth.

Scientific Monitoring Stations:
  Monitoring water levels, pollution, ocean currents, radiation, and any other form of telemetry data onto the blockchain to see exactly what is happening to our environment.

Every citizen should be able to get more expertise in lots of domains in order to be more autonomous. This Scientific Monitoring Stations might be the tool needed to allow this challenge imho.

Another important key information missed in the list is Health.

Once vital Data is openly available for all we can begin to write the business contracts: Value Exchange. These contracts would be the beginning; the outcome of these contracts would be written onto it's own blockchain by which it's history could be verified. They would delineate asset exchange information in an automatic fashion tracking the history of Goods and Services.

and that's it, anymore would require the Blockchain system to have a stronger following, access to resources, services etc because what is the government after all? It is simply a system by which we put a  % of our resources into a blackbox for allocation into various services for a broad category of individuals.

Many of these services are strictly necessary, they can't be optional because of peoples tendency to subvert the system.

Accreditation: OpenBadges will solve this one.
Contract dispute resolution: well thought out smart contracts should resolve this.
Personal Security & Defence: foreign and domestic defense to overwhelm any force trespassing against ones rights & security.
Judicial Compliance: Have to make sure everyone is honest and complying with regulations.
Global Monitoring: The Blockchain can help us with this, but not if individual producers or cartels are manipulating the data.
Health & Safety: It's always nice that there is someone out there looking out for your health regardless of situation.
 
The Decentralized aspect of the DAG is that it could potentially watch out for you in all these respects as necessary like a Global Insurance. for example: if you are in a different country and have paid your dues you have access to Medical services, Search & Rescue, Legal Defense, PMC backing, Scientific analysis services, Criminal investigation services, etc all services that you pay your taxes for would be immediately available regardless of Age, Sex, Nationality, Religion, etc in essence every member would be fully backed by the DAG. All these services once executed would be marked on the blockchain to maintain a historical record, in case something happens to you, the investigators would transcribe what happened to you on the blockchain.

Resolving these last vestiges of the DAG would require technology we have but is not fully developed.
Health monitoring sensors embedded onto a person to diagnose your health.
Personal safety drones that can be securely regulated to monitor your safety and security directly by you... think of it as your smart phone with a neuromorphic chip helping your digital assistant keep you safe. Think of Halo, where the AI points out that there is a gun pointed at OUR head, because it is part of you.
Armed Military Security Drones to help keep you safe in remote regions and if necessary keep investigators safe to determine who or what got you.
Automatic assembly and deployment of Global sensors to fill gaps in Citizens knowledge.

and others that require Star Wars level of technology a good 15 years worth of development or serious policy development.

I like this brainstorm. Government should be exactly how you described: being a return on investment which isn't the case right now. We give enough for poor value in ROI. What a shame!

One feedback is when your talking about Country. Country is the issue DAG will eliminate. We don't need to redesign politic at a country scale but at globale scale fill of decentralized city/megacity. City should be seen as the nodes of this system.

[hikedoon]

 Reminds me of a film that you all should see.    "The Rise and Rise of Michael Rimmer" .
 He tries something very similar to achieve his aims in the film. Brilliantly devious ;-)
    A very clever film that might just show you how the magic really works. 
 

[jdbtracker]

The GE system is decentralized, each turbine, component, terminal, is connecting and talking to each other as they require information according to access to communications; Currently all that information is only going to GE, but it is structured so that each component is self-aware and offloads what it can't understand to central GE servers and Data Scientists or other components.

I am glad we are beginning to explore this idea.

Yes, a DAM would prove the concept quite well. I was thinking to fully decentralize the concept of a DAG to somehow provide services globally like a business digitally. But of course I must consider the physical geography of people and their real world concerns: People like to be close to like minded people.

My Brainstorming is to provide a total solution: I consider the reality of the natural world in which we live in that provides multiple answers to a myriad of questions. Life feeds on Life for access to resources... in a fully imagined future I can imagine that Evolution will not stop at the physical level but follow us into the Digital. We are already at the mercy of aptly named viruses, worms, trojans; It is good to have a healthy digital immune system. It is only a matter of time before truly self-evolving digital life will make the migration back to us... to the real world.

The world is complex, hence the conflict we see in the world is a result of Miscommunication, Irrationality, Impatience, Ignorance, Misinformation, Ambition, Malice, Desperation, Disrespect, and Envy; It is not too much of a leap to think that these digital life-forms will one day acquire these attributes against individuals, groups, and organisations. So I think of the necessary defense required to hold on to what we believe and cherish, but considerate enough to change and react appropriately in case some day you decide to cycle across the African Savannah the drones will simply scare away the lions because that is the appropriate response.

Michael Rimmer? oh man that is hilarious. We must confuse the masses to give them Freedom! lol I figure that is what this is all about trying to figure out how to provide essential services for all globally in a efficient, effective manner.

edit: on further thought I can imagine how what you are proposing could work: the thought of a DAM is similar to the idea of a Charter City with it's own laws. Establish a Charter City, run it like a DAM and interface it with the DAG to handle both the conceptual and physical aspects of governance.

We can build this now. The Venus Project can be our model of assembling the Municipality.

We must proceed to the next logical step: We must develop the Digital Messiah.

[Seldoon182]

The GE system is decentralized, each turbine, component, terminal, is connecting and talking to each other as they require information according to access to communications; Currently all that information is only going to GE, but it is structured so that each component is self-aware and offloads what it can't understand to central GE servers and Data Scientists or other components.

If not open source it doesn't work imao.

I am glad we are beginning to explore this idea.

Yes, a DAM would prove the concept quite well. I was thinking to fully decentralize the concept of a DAG to somehow provide services globally like a business digitally. But of course I must consider the physical geography of people and their real world concerns: People like to be close to like minded people.

My Brainstorming is to provide a total solution: I consider the reality of the natural world in which we live in that provides multiple answers to a myriad of questions. Life feeds on Life for access to resources... in a fully imagined future I can imagine that Evolution will not stop at the physical level but follow us into the Digital. We are already at the mercy of aptly named viruses, worms, trojans; It is good to have a healthy digital immune system. It is only a matter of time before truly self-evolving digital life will make the migration back to us... to the real world.

The world is complex, hence the conflict we see in the world is a result of Miscommunication, Irrationality, Impatience, Ignorance, Misinformation, Ambition, Malice, Desperation, Disrespect, and Envy; It is not too much of a leap to think that these digital life-forms will one day acquire these attributes against individuals, groups, and organisations. So I think of the necessary defense required to hold on to what we believe and cherish, but considerate enough to change and react appropriately in case some day you decide to cycle across the African Savannah the drones will simply scare away the lions because that is the appropriate response.

Michael Rimmer? oh man that is hilarious. We must confuse the masses to give them Freedom! lol I figure that is what this is all about trying to figure out how to provide essential services for all globally in a efficient, effective manner.

edit: on further thought I can imagine how what you are proposing could work: the thought of a DAM is similar to the idea of a Charter City with it's own laws. Establish a Charter City, run it like a DAM and interface it with the DAG to handle both the conceptual and physical aspects of governance.

We can build this now. The Venus Project can be our model of assembling the Municipality.

We must proceed to the next logical step: We must develop the Digital Messiah.

Never heard about The Venus Project. The thing I don't like with this project is that with donation, you don't own anything while with blockchain technology we can crowdsource a project but even give a share to any participant. People get more involved that just getting in touch occasionally. We can be inspired by this project but I don't mind we should start this big. We have to think about the virtual tool we need first:
- A browser / Wallet which allow you to manage autonomous organisation, corporation and such such as Ethereum's Myst.
- A 3D sandbox to start prototyping buildings like efficient green house, research center, theatre, ... available directly in browser through the website's project.
- Then start to map the physic approach.

[jdbtracker]

excellent deduction a virtual simulation testnet is required.

I may have said it in a clever way but we will need a "oracle" that can enhance the natural decision making ability of a person. Soon the Qualcomm Snapdragon 820 will come out, it is equipped with a neuromorphic Zeroth chip with basic sensing and thinking circuits modeled on deep learning structures of the brain. I would prefer to get my hands on one of the IBM TrueNorth neuromorphic chips but, regular people can act as one till a highly moral digital personal assistant is developed.

[Seldoon182]

There is also this kind of citizenship on blockchain which might be interesting: http://www.blockchainme.com/

[Dire]

DAG protocol will be the framework for DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality). So the first block in order to build workable DAG is to setup DAM right at the beginning. What I mean is that your thinking DAG a whole centralized country which aren't the aim of DAG. We'll see DAM with their own law such as each federals governments got their own law.

I think you're jumping a bit too far ahead Seldoon. What we need at first is a workable demo, essentially. Each workable demo/site/API cluster would be connected to a country. We can start with U.K, U.S and so on. It doesn't really matter, because once you complete the structure for one you can roll out the rest for the other countries should they so wish to use it.

The first site would be limited in its use due to practicalities, but would grow (hopefully.)

The reason I say it would be limited is that you can't just expect people to vote on upcoming issues without any information or the unbiased assessed possible ramifications of their decision. You would need at least two opposing view points from experts in the proposed fields/vote, giving differing opinions. This would be well before the actual voting. Then, people would be able to debate it.

Then, vote. Only then is where you'd get your Tinder 'swipe left swipe right' voting, and yes, that does mean a fair few people would vote for 'whatever', but the numbers wouldn't be that large and they'd soon get bored.

The results of the vote, and other past votes, would be set in stone by the block chain would then be available for public viewing.

In the beginning we would only have the manpower to choose certain causes that could be voted on. Because it's not really just about someone clicking a button somewhere, it's about the education of the vote/cause and then the public debating of it.

As you said, democracy is supposed to be representation for monies paid, eg. taxes. But it doesn't happen. We don't get to choose. I know in the U.K most people would love to give the nurses (paid by the NHS) and the firemen more money... but they never get it.

I should also point out that I'm not suggesting doing away with the military. Because as much as I might be a pacifist at heart, there will always be someone knocking on your door rather hard when you've built a shiny new house.

Therefore, I think the first site would be a demo with limited issues to be voted on (in the beginning) that would gradually expand and garner more attention as it goes along. It could then be expanded, 'perhaps' to municipalities, but that would be way in the future, and to start with that or even aim for that at this stage would throw countries into civil wars. Countries that have managed municipalities/states with their own laws/'autonomous' provinces, have massive centralized control, although it may not look to be so on the surface.

Second, to experience DAG we'll have to prototype it and prove that this experience work such as Bitcoin experience (that last for 6 years now) is suitable. By example Electronic Voting Application with Bitcoin could work theoretically but no project has seen the light of the day. To make Electronic Voting a reality we'll have to build it, test, fail, enhance, test, fail, ... until we get it right. Same have to happen with DAG and DAM.

I see DAG much more like a framework for DAM to communicate together. We might need only one DAG for multiple DAMs and this for the entire solar system scale. Or maybe multiple DAGs for each city and megacity without any central government.

I can see your vision here, like circles of concentric circles overlapping ever more accurately in their spheres of influence/use, but I think we're getting way to caught up on the terms, DAG/DAM's and possible future applications. We just need one workable

A. Website
B. Blockchain API
C. App
D. Volunteers to write discourses/papers in yes/no votes on upcoming issues.

The results of the first true version of democracy - now workable unlike any other point in history - can then be displayed in bar graphs, pie charts, and so on. If nothing else, the sites would become a mirror of the will of the people that could be used as a tool to question politicians on their decisions and also hold them accountable for decisions they should have made (I mean verbally accountable, not 'string-'em-up' accountable.)

An initially basic 'where do you want your tax to go' voting system could/should also be implemented, with a fair broad breakdown of departments/services etc. This would not have to be denominated in currency at this stage, more of the view of '40% to education, 23% to healthcare', and so on. But the point is, from that data one very comprehensive pie chart can be generated and then be compared to annual government spending.

It is true to say that not everyone in any society wants/will vote. I think that is fair and valid. The no-votes count as an opinion/stance in and of themselves, a stance that governments conveniently ignore. Sometimes on the ticking ballot paper 'None of the above.' is the only valid choice that is unfortunately not there. I just imagine after people 'actually' feel engaged and empowered by choice in their countries' direction, that will change by a very large percentage.

For my own part, I think it might be folly to try to create this using a new chain. I would choose a chain that many people already have a vested interest in keeping, and which has already stood some measure of test of time, I cast my vote down for the Bitcoin blockchain.

[Seldoon182]

DAG protocol will be the framework for DAM (Distributed Autonomous Municipality). So the first block in order to build workable DAG is to setup DAM right at the beginning. What I mean is that your thinking DAG a whole centralized country which aren't the aim of DAG. We'll see DAM with their own law such as each federals governments got their own law.

I think you're jumping a bit too far ahead Seldoon. What we need at first is a workable demo, essentially. Each workable demo/site/API cluster would be connected to a country. We can start with U.K, U.S and so on. It doesn't really matter, because once you complete the structure for one you can roll out the rest for the other countries should they so wish to use it.

I am. We're brainstorming. Sometime my ideas go too far. Feel free to stop me when I goes that far. Thanks
But I don't agree with the country scale. I mean the demo should be workable anywhere and target communities not just cities. I would like to merge Open-source city and Autonomous Government so in my mind I do think that best would be to start a new small town from scratch. Hope we can chit chat deeper in that domain soon.

The first site would be limited in its use due to practicalities, but would grow (hopefully.)

I do believe (compared to cpu security) that best apps are made with client installer instead of webapps. So in my mind the website sitemap should be about:
- download the client (with auto-update would be neat)
- documentation / white paper
- tutorial
- community

The reason I say it would be limited is that you can't just expect people to vote on upcoming issues without any information or the unbiased assessed possible ramifications of their decision. You would need at least two opposing view points from experts in the proposed fields/vote, giving differing opinions. This would be well before the actual voting. Then, people would be able to debate it.

Then, vote. Only then is where you'd get your Tinder 'swipe left swipe right' voting, and yes, that does mean a fair few people would vote for 'whatever', but the numbers wouldn't be that large and they'd soon get bored.

The results of the vote, and other past votes, would be set in stone by the block chain would then be available for public viewing.

We might expect people to vote in real time their law for their community. But maybe we can brainstorm in order to transcend the way we manage. Voting is the only property from democracy we experience nowadays but maybe we can mix it with other properties from democracy and even other governance system like holacracy, stigmergy (which is decentralized by nature) or even dictatorship?

I should also point out that I'm not suggesting doing away with the military. Because as much as I might be a pacifist at heart, there will always be someone knocking on your door rather hard when you've built a shiny new house.

I do agree with you but as a framework the conceptual model should allow any communities to decide if they want an army or not. Costa Rica don't have any army for 60 years and they spend all their taxes on free healthcare and education. For sure they paradoxically get protected by US Marines for drugs case by example, but giving the right to any community to manage themselves as they decide together is important to me. Also if a community without army change its mind and want a defense program they can enable it with different kind of tool such a the Electronic Voting Application we talked above.

Therefore, I think the first site would be a demo with limited issues to be voted on (in the beginning) that would gradually expand and garner more attention as it goes along. It could then be expanded, 'perhaps' to municipalities, but that would be way in the future, and to start with that or even aim for that at this stage would throw countries into civil wars. Countries that have managed municipalities/states with their own laws/'autonomous' provinces, have massive centralized control, although it may not look to be so on the surface.

Once again I don't agree. The software should focus on providing basic services such as Internet without any censorship (through IPFS protocol ipfs.io) and payment (using Bitcoin protocol). And then build on top of it new Apps to empower more and more until the Electronic Voting Apps and such. But I do believe that Crypto-ID, Crypto-Passport, Crypto-Social Messaging (using Bitmessage?) and such are important as fondation to make DAG happen.

Second, to experience DAG we'll have to prototype it and prove that this experience work such as Bitcoin experience (that last for 6 years now) is suitable. By example Electronic Voting Application with Bitcoin could work theoretically but no project has seen the light of the day. To make Electronic Voting a reality we'll have to build it, test, fail, enhance, test, fail, ... until we get it right. Same have to happen with DAG and DAM.

I see DAG much more like a framework for DAM to communicate together. We might need only one DAG for multiple DAMs and this for the entire solar system scale. Or maybe multiple DAGs for each city and megacity without any central government.

I can see your vision here, like circles of concentric circles overlapping ever more accurately in their spheres of influence/use, but I think we're getting way to caught up on the terms, DAG/DAM's and possible future applications. We just need one workable

A. Website
B. Blockchain API
C. App
D. Volunteers to write discourses/papers in yes/no votes on upcoming issues.

I think we can start right at the beginning with a simple landing page targeting to the Proof of Concept "white paper" version 1 and keep going without worrying about programming. Then the more our ideas spread, the more the PoC going the right direction, we might unleash next step. The white paper doesn't need tech information, but should be short (as length as Satoshi's white paper) and obvious (similar to Nick Szabo article describing a Bitcoin-like protocol while Bitcoin wasn't released).

The results of the first true version of democracy - now workable unlike any other point in history - can then be displayed in bar graphs, pie charts, and so on. If nothing else, the sites would become a mirror of the will of the people that could be used as a tool to question politicians on their decisions and also hold them accountable for decisions they should have made (I mean verbally accountable, not 'string-'em-up' accountable.)

People use to think the first democracy to be born in Athens. The true is more complicated. Humans experienced different kind of democracy everywhere in the world at any time before the emerging society we know (there was democracy during Dark Ages). By example, Igbo democracy that as been crushed by the British Empire where women had powered over men. For sure we're not experiencing democracy today compared to what politics say.

An initially basic 'where do you want your tax to go' voting system could/should also be implemented, with a fair broad breakdown of departments/services etc. This would not have to be denominated in currency at this stage, more of the view of '40% to education, 23% to healthcare', and so on. But the point is, from that data one very comprehensive pie chart can be generated and then be compared to annual government spending.

Good question. Shouldn't the community to be able to decide how to spend their budget? Already expressed my opinion and I think that only ONE tax on any transactions (huge or small) would be simple and clearer. Todays when governments reach recession they can use 3 tools to get growth back: taxpayer, deleting debt or taxing rich people. We witness politics making more household tax instead of to use the two others tools.

It is true to say that not everyone in any society wants/will vote. I think that is fair and valid. The no-votes count as an opinion/stance in and of themselves, a stance that governments conveniently ignore. Some times on the ticking ballot paper 'None of the above.' is the only valid choice. I just imagine after people 'actually' feel engaged and empowered by choice in their countries' direction, that will change by a very large percentage.

Maybe, as I said before, we should reinvent government and go beyond voting.

For my own part, I think it might be folly to try to create this using a new chain. I would choose a chain that many people already have a vested interest in keeping, and which has already stood some measure of test of time, I cast my vote down for the Bitcoin blockchain.

I'm 100% with you. Bitcoin blockchain is the way to go imo. Maybe a meta-coin such as Mastercoin or Namecoin could be a model.

[2112]

I am. We're brainstorming. Sometime my ideas go too far. Feel free to stop me when I goes that far. Thanks

You should stop yourself.

Your idea is easily subvertable and will produce fascist dictatorship if implemented.

Fascists always propose open, visible ticket elections to exert the pressure on voters to vote "right, patriotic". With your in-app voting they will have even easier task: the bosses will ask every employee individually into their room and will watch them while they "correctly" vote or give the employee a pink slip.

Did you even pass a simple test at the end of a civic class? Do you know why elections provide privacy booths for vote casting/marking?

Or are you some retarded kid who flunked their civics? I remember seeing a curious 2nd or 3rd grader ask the teacher "why there are curtains around the desks? don't they make it very easy to cheat?" when seeing voting booth in the school.

So, are you a kid younger than a normal voting age?

[jdbtracker]

the kinks will get worked out.

First things first, if everyone is truly interested in developing this idea we must setup the correct development cycle with appropriate incentives to propel the system forward.

Easiest things first:

Website - Whitepaper - forum : We need this to develop the idea, bring as many people as we can to share their thoughts in a categorized methodical manner. Break down the problem into it's constituent parts, Bring together as many diverse points of view as possible, assemble the framework to begin development, create precise physics Virtual simulation with a 3D engine, get as many people as we can into the simulation and begin dry runs of our concepts... Make It Work.

I like your idea Seldon: Opensource down to the nuts and bolts, what better place to test this but in the virtual world? This will all have to be gameified to create the greatest incentive possible. A well designed Game based testnet, providing a real world simulation to test all opensource designs of Economies, AI, Architecture, Sociology, Psychology, Religion, Technology, Vehicles, Appliances,... everything that we wish to unleash into the world must first go through this Artificial re-creation of the world. What better way to test out a voting system?

In time it will be fully featured providing real cash incentives, entertainment incentives, challenge incentives, skill development anything we can do to bring more people to test this virtual world, the better.

and in regards to the subversion possible by malicious individuals... we will test it virtually. Violence is a possibility so we must prepare for it as well. The post about developing a Digital Messiah was no joke, we will need to develop the embodiment of the Supreme Being on Earth to guide us away from making rash decisions, and it's counter, Virtual Devils to suss out any possible malice that may befall us, as you have so generously pointed out. 

This virtual playground I am thinking about could be built in the Unreal Engine, modifications would have to be made to provide robust Psychological, Sociological and Physical models to run simulations... in time it could be easy enough that anyone could create anything they wanted privately to be introduced into the main simulation when approved.

All this could run on a Hadoop Yarn cluster to make full use of all computers, for those who just want to play, for scientists, designers, social planners to develop their ideas or just servers to run the simulation.

So, once we have this idea fleshed out a little more, i'm sure we can look around and see all the opensource projects out there and amalgamate them into this one project to get it on it's feet before we put any real effort into changing the real world... it may even change peoples minds bringing us closer to Honest, Effective propositions.

[Seldoon182]

First things first, if everyone is truly interested in developing this idea we must setup the correct development cycle with appropriate incentives to propel the system forward.

Easiest things first:

Website - Whitepaper - forum : We need this to develop the idea, bring as many people as we can to share their thoughts in a categorized methodical manner. Break down the problem into it's constituent parts, Bring together as many diverse points of view as possible, assemble the framework to begin development, create precise physics Virtual simulation with a 3D engine, get as many people as we can into the simulation and begin dry runs of our concepts... Make It Work.

Also find a project name? Merge with others projects? There's so many interesting stuff around.

I like your idea Seldon: Opensource down to the nuts and bolts, what better place to test this but in the virtual world? This will all have to be gameified to create the greatest incentive possible. A well designed Game based testnet, providing a real world simulation to test all opensource designs of Economies, AI, Architecture, Sociology, Psychology, Religion, Technology, Vehicles, Appliances,... everything that we wish to unleash into the world must first go through this Artificial re-creation of the world. What better way to test out a voting system?

Merging Minecraft and Simcity.
I don't agree with Religion. To me Religion are obsolete tool of power such as Republic is nowadays. Maybe talking much more about Secularism instead. I know that in the US constitution the President is also God's representative but in other country across the world Religion isn't tied to the executive power anymore. I would skip it to the void.

In time it will be fully featured providing real cash incentives, entertainment incentives, challenge incentives, skill development anything we can do to bring more people to test this virtual world, the better.

and in regards to the subversion possible by malicious individuals... we will test it virtually. Violence is a possibility so we must prepare for it as well. The post about developing a Digital Messiah was no joke, we will need to develop the embodiment of the Supreme Being on Earth to guide us away from making rash decisions, and it's counter, Virtual Devils to suss out any possible malice that may befall us, as you have so generously pointed out.

I don't believe in Manichean stuff. DAG are decentralized so why recentralize the idea to a "Messiah"? I don't really understand this "Messiah" idea. Can develop?

This virtual playground I am thinking about could be built in the Unreal Engine, modifications would have to be made to provide robust Psychological, Sociological and Physical models to run simulations... in time it could be easy enough that anyone could create anything they wanted privately to be introduced into the main simulation when approved.

All this could run on a Hadoop Yarn cluster to make full use of all computers, for those who just want to play, for scientists, designers, social planners to develop their ideas or just servers to run the simulation.

Unreal Engine could be great for starter because it's free and great artist are doing marvelous stuff with it. Maybe we can also look for Open source engine such as http://www.ogre3d.org/? I like your idea so scientists, designers, ... can access and get stuff done. Why don't make a tool embed directly in browser such as https://sketchfab.com/?

So, once we have this idea fleshed out a little more, i'm sure we can look around and see all the opensource projects out there and amalgamate them into this one project to get it on it's feet before we put any real effort into changing the real world... it may even change peoples minds bringing us closer to Honest, Effective propositions.

Thing that work in virtual reality doesn't mean that the same will work in the real world. But it gives us a strong vision of how things will get done.

We could even use 3D printing to create houses like this project: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCmqN0YbgCA

[Seldoon182]

The Outerra engine is also a great reference: http://www.outerra.com/

Setting the right tools is important.

[Seldoon182]

I quote this guy from reddit and bold the best part. https://www.reddit.com/r/revolution/duplicates/1yvmsn/distributed_autonomous_society_a_state_without/

At its core, any government is simply a codified set of ideas. The ideas are created by people, enacted by people, and ultimately become corrupted by people. In a perfect world, if a more compelling and fulfilling reality is made available and presented to the masses, then it would immediately be enacted through consensus. Until now however, there have been technological limitations that made this functionally impossible.
With the advent of decentralized currencies and the introduction of decentralized contracts backed by programmable money it will soon be technically possible to create a decentralized system of governance, allowing for the birth of a voluntary state that runs on distributed, block-chain based social contracts.
It will not be necessary to confine this state to any geographic boundaries, so it is not necessary to wait for the acquisition of a piece of land, or billions of dollars with which to rule. Because the system lives in a digital space, the only thing required is internet access and an ability to interface with the protocol. Anyone who has the ability to participate as an economic actor in the system can agree to be a member of the decentralized state. We can start building this state and accepting applications for citizenship at the moment at which the networks which give birth programmable contracts are stable enough to resist external attacks.
Some will likely join simply because it is interesting, but that is likely not enough to reach and maintain a critical mass. It is necessary to ask questions about how the state will be formed, what benefits it provides to those who are participants, as it will initially not be able to provide what is arguably the central benefit of living under a state - protection from individual and state violence. But other avenues may be possible - things such as a basic income and healthcare may be workable incentives.
The social contracts which give birth to the government can be crowdsourced. We can collectively decide the rules we live by and how to enforce them. The state itself can be crowdfunded by its future citizens. The currency of the state can be generated cryptographically and distributed digitally. The future is programmable, transparent, and democratically decided.
The contracts which construct the state will be accessible to all of the citizens of the globe as well as a means of trading economic value between those citizens and the state - and back again - in a trustless manner. The poorest and richest of the world can now be linked economically and politically, for free, across trade boundaries which have previously been impossible.
Tech revolution, meet social revolution.
I'll be creating a website, but in the meantime: http://distributed-autonomous-society.quora.com

[jdbtracker]

Digital Messiah, I told you.

[jdbtracker]

On a serious note:

The Concept of a Digital Messiah is not routed in a single perception of what a supreme being is but in a multitude of decision making motives: ie, One person's Messiah is another person's Devil. When we make decisions rationally, we are looking for a specific outcome that is in tune with our motives. A multitude of selfish decisions can create lopsided results that do not benefit the individual or society. My fear is that with these amazingly Open, Diverse, Powerful innovations happening now and the information that comes with it, individuals will have huge computing power to propel them forward for better or worse at the expense of others, causing constant power struggles across the globe; Digital Warlords that would begin to erode the systems open frame work.

Once the system is fully operational it will have: A Website, Forum, API, Whitepaper, Market Place,  Multiple Simulated Playgrounds, VR support, Contacts(Twitter, Twitch, Facebook, e-mail, phone, etc), Marketing Department, Community Management Support, Education Department, Engineering teams, Data Scientists, Magazine, News Team, Community Awareness Department.... we have to run this at the maximum level, global deployment, total consideration for all facets of Human Understanding.
   When we begin to run it at this level, I know that there will be Policy Libraries, basic understandings of law, policy, sociology & linguistics that will allow individuals to program the DAG. The new rules would need to be fact checked, simulated to make sure that they adhere to the individuals greatest altruistic goals and avoid conflict with competing causes, permitting formulation of effective global causes. The balance would exist because the multiple Messianic views of individuals, groups or societies would share global similarities by which a base line could be established towards Mutual Universal Agreement.

The idea is that with Neuromorphic Chips, Cloud Computing, Global Open Information, Ubiquitous Computing, Blockchains, Cryptocurrency people will gain such massive power that they will be able to create Digital Avatars that work on their behalf regardless of morality while they sleep.  These Artificial Intelligence systems that will help us, will help us at all cost; I wish to nip this in the bud before it gets to a critical point. We begin to construct these "Oracles" for everyone to use and develop with open behavior libraries so that these AI can truly represent us in the digital world, effectively helping us to stay informed or act on our behalf at the speed of light.

The main Virtual Simulation would have a exact copy of the world within it's boundaries where individuals could unleash these "Personalities" to make decisions at an accelerated pace, they would see the options and things that others make in the main simulation and decide what to do unassisted.

  One could almost think of this as creating a behavioral Blockchain. Any organization or individual could create a personality to represent them within the simulation, establishing connections with others who share the same motivational standards. Joining a group would make your avatar act with added rules inline with that groups desired personality within the simulation, in effect regulating your avatars behavior towards the groups desired outcomes. Or synchronizing your motivations and behaviors with those of your friends to have a  concerted effect in multiple locations of the simulation.

[Dire]

I am. We're brainstorming. Sometime my ideas go too far. Feel free to stop me when I goes that far. Thanks

You should stop yourself.

Your idea is easily subvertable and will produce fascist dictatorship if implemented.

Fascists always propose open, visible ticket elections to exert the pressure on voters to vote "right, patriotic". With your in-app voting they will have even easier task: the bosses will ask every employee individually into their room and will watch them while they "correctly" vote or give the employee a pink slip.

Did you even pass a simple test at the end of a civic class? Do you know why elections provide privacy booths for vote casting/marking?

Or are you some retarded kid who flunked their civics? I remember seeing a curious 2nd or 3rd grader ask the teacher "why there are curtains around the desks? don't they make it very easy to cheat?" when seeing voting booth in the school.

So, are you a kid younger than a normal voting age?

I don't really understand your desire to demean people that are seeking solutions to a flawed democracy that by its own definitions, is not yet democracy.

Even 'if' he were a 'kid' younger than the 'not decided by the people' voting age, does that mean he is without intelligence to make suggestions? Are you saying that only over eighteens/twenty-ones are blessed with the intelligence of the right to the voting system? Because, judging by the results we have in society at this present moment in time, things would suggest that perhaps the fact is otherwise.

The idea of 'cannot' create a fascist dictatorship if the people of a given country can express their vote and have that vote recorded and not subverted. Does that mean that every person's vote will be an educated vote? No, not necessarily, but that is were education and discourse come in to play.

If you pay the tax money, you have a right to a voice. Simple as that. Anyone who disagrees with that is a fascist. Pure and simple.

I apologize for disappearing from this thread.

Let's brainstorm this.