CryptoBetfair.com | 100% Provably Fair | More than a casino, a community.

[laughingbear]

Will the user still need to wait up to 24 hours before being able to "batch verify" their rolls? Or are you planning to have the verifier log the server seed hashes as the player plays, effectively doing the work for the player? Neither solution seems as neat as Just-Dice's system, where so long the player (1) makes a note of their server seed hash before playing and then (2) sets their client seed before playing, he can, at any later point verify all the rolls he makes after that, at any time he likes, without having to make a note of any additional information (other than the actual numbers he rolled, of course - or what is there to verify).

We are working on a combination of solutions, all bets will be verified instantly and every bet made will be verifiable in bulk after one hour. 
I think we have come up with a clever solution, that will be very easy for everyone.

I am also very excited about the positive conversation regarding provably fair and advancements happening here.  I will update you asap.

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[RHavar]

With the Just-Dice script, how do you verify that the seed you send, is the same seed and not a ambiguous variation?

I don't understand your question. Which two seeds are you talking about (client seed or server seed)? And who are the two "you"s in your question?

I'll try to rewrite your question unambiguously and then answer it:

"how does player the verify that the server seed that the site sends them when they ask to reveal their server seed after play is the same as the seed that was hashed before they started play and not a different seed with the same sha256 hash and which generated all the same rolls when combined with the client seed?"

Is that what you're asking?

If so, that's the same as asking "how can we be sure you're not cheating by finding not only an sha256 collision (which has never been done by anyone before) but all N different partial hmac_sha512 collisions, where N is the number of rolls that were made". And I guess the answer is "you can't - either the game is fair, or we are using a weakness in sha256 and sha512 which nobody else even knows exists". If you don't trust the strength of sha256 then all bets are off (as it were).

But maybe I've misunderstood your question; please let me know what you're really asking.

As I understand it, the post is describing the case when a user set's the client seed to "lucky" and then places a bet. If the server sees the client seed was indeed lucky, it might change it to "1ucky". If they use a font that makes no visual difference between "1ucky" and "lucky" the person won't notice, and if they use the permuted client seed for verification, the game will appear provably fair.

It's a cute thought experiment, but it would be one of the stupidest ways imaginable for a casino to cheat. If anyone noticed (and they almost certainly would if they verified any bets), it would prove malicious intent. If a casino was going to cheat, it'd be better off doing it in a way that has plausible deniability ("Whoops, the change to your client seed didn't update in the db! Maybe you didn't submit it?")

[laughingbear]

I had a look over the scheme too, and if my understanding is correct the primary advantage is that it's provably fair even if the person doesn't set their own client seed. The real problem is that complexity is the enemy, and for someone to independently verify your games is a lot of work, something that I'd be surprised to see anyone do for a while =)

If you really care about that particular use case, why don't you use the Just-Dice scheme and *require* people to set their own client seed before placing any bets? Now you have an industry standard scheme, that well understood, tested and has lots of independent implementations while trying to protect people who don't set the client seed.

(Or what I'd do, is set the default client-seed client-side using window.crypto, and promising that I will always do that, so if there ever is an instance of me setting it server-side that can be used as proof of cheating)

One of the reasons we did not use  window.crypto is that it is not compatible with all browsers. We went through a lot of pains (and still are) to make sure that our site is fully responsive and usable for as many people as possible.

Again the "complexity" or our system is currently being addressed, and we will have several solutions available very soon.

We still believe that using all zeros to start with the client seed, is more direct and obvious proof that we would not use a bad seed.
Do you require users to set their own client seed before placing a bet?

[RHavar]

Do you require users to set their own client seed before placing a bet?

No, on my sites I use a machine-centric provably fair system, as I want machines to verify each bet, and be able to do it instantly. It's definitely a trade-off, but one I've been very happy with. App developers have had no trouble incorporating a check, which in a more complex (or batch system) would be x100 the work.

I also have a different set of requirements too, so I wouldn't recommend the same scheme for your site. (I'd honestly just copy Just-Dice's, and if I cared about the fairness of the initial client seed I'd force people to set it manually)

One of the reasons we did not use  window.crypto is that it is not compatible with all browsers. We went through a lot of pains (and still are) to make sure that our site is fully responsive and usable for as many people as possible.

I think it's supported in all current browsers, except Opera Mini. If it's not available, you can fallback to Math.random or even random.org or something.

Here's what DustDice.com does:

https://github.com/moneypot/dustdice/blob/master/public/scripts/game-logic/clib.js#L85-L94

and supports all browsers, and uses window.crypto in 99% of them. And furthermore, that's just the default seed, people are welcome to change it if they care.


Also picking a bad client seed would be really stupid and risky anyway, if people ever find out they do that, they could trick you and clean the house.

[gielbier]

With the Just-Dice CoinDice script, how do you verify that the seed you send, is the same seed and not a ambiguous variation?

But maybe I've misunderstood your question; please let me know what you're really asking.

Seems I confused JustDice with the CoinDice script. (Where this is possible)

I'll explain it a bit. Its indeed what RHavar said.
1 - "KjglBXrzAQcIpNnHOsuLPjVWFLJlCjRoYFIL"
2 - "KjglBXrzAQcIpNnHOsuLPjVWFLJICjRoYFIL"  
1 -(sha256: d24e0b0fcb115626c485af2ece757fd6f8f02238c5e3f8c5d0cb13ed95f1d9e0)
2 -(sha256: 89e598b3d27c9a0af89001427422e375afe64c4ee4f4ac4839df9a7a69db9604)

Looks pretty much the same. so ambigious font/styling could allow 2^n rolls (n being the number of characters that could be subbed)  to try for the "hosters" of dicescripts to get a winning result. (betting scripts that don't show seeds in hex for example.)

EDIT:
This is firefox: https://i.imgur.com/HpfV5Cy.png
THis is chrome: http://gyazo.com/a724930ce28fa55f598970be65250249

It's a cute thought experiment, but it would be one of the stupidest ways imaginable for a casino to cheat. If anyone noticed (and they almost certainly would if they verified any bets), it would prove malicious intent. If a casino was going to cheat, it'd be better off doing it in a way that has plausible deniability ("Whoops, the change to your client seed didn't update in the db! Maybe you didn't submit it?")

But it completely possible in the CoinDice script. (again, I was confuddled regarding the CoinDice / JustDice thing).
Because in the end, do you read the js of a page? and is what you see the same seed. without clientside logging, seeds that are not hex or bin, but ascii are a problem because they leave vectors open.
But ofc dropping bets. or skipping/silently returning bets are the most likely suspects.

But on the forcing of setting a client seed, well thats maybe a point, but still considering the way the serverseeds are chained on cbf. And how they are implemented in the verifier not setting the clientseed is still not a big deal. ofc you can. But as long as the dailyseeds match up aswell as betverification. that bet was provable fair, because the server can't change it clientseed.

[laughingbear]

Coming up to our 6 millionth bet!

Stop by chat for some coins to test.

Our other updates "should" be ready by this weekend.

[bitllionaire]

Hey your site is good, you should make marketing promos to attract more users,
I think people will like the site 

[98problems]

Hey your site is good, you should make marketing promos to attract more users,
I think people will like the site 

the owner said that you can try to chat on the website to get free coins to test it out, i think i will try it later

[laughingbear]

Hey your site is good, you should make marketing promos to attract more users,
I think people will like the site 

We are thinking about several options, but we want to avoid spam.

[laughingbear]

We are adding the final touches to our verifier solution.  Soon TM

[laughingbear]

We just added startcoin on all of our games!

[timthetin]

I see you giving away vouchers in your chatbox and on twitter but i rarely catch one what are the requirements?

[sbankerdemon]

Hi your casino is really cool. I like it. best of luck to you.

[laughingbear]

I see you giving away vouchers in your chatbox and on twitter but i rarely catch one what are the requirements?

We have a voucher system. Just stop by chat any time and ask, we will be happy to give you some coins to try us out

[timthetin]

I see you giving away vouchers in your chatbox and on twitter but i rarely catch one what are the requirements?

We have a voucher system. Just stop by chat any time and ask, we will be happy to give you some coins to try us out

thanks for the coins laughingbear, great site, good luck

[laughingbear]

Sorry for the delay.. We keep getting new ideas, and adding features to our new verification idea.

[podizzle]

in b4 lame aroman bump

[aroman01]

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The new dice game allows the player to select the odds of their choice as well
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[gielbier]

A preview of the verifier (wip - things might change) :
!! - Large gif warning - !!
https://i.imgur.com/sLUlUHb.gif

[laughingbear]

Looking good Gielbier