Small time miners - What do you do when ASICs hit and you don't upgrade?

[K1773R]

why solo mine? just join p2pool

p2pool is only a way to make sure you get more regular payouts than solo mining.  If you don't care about the payouts and are just mining for fun, then why load the network with more transactions?

People are already complaining that the blockchain is big and hard to download, p2pool is accelerating that because of all the small transactions per block found

im sry but this is total BS (bullshit), first take a look at how p2pool works and after that compare it with other websites/projects. The biggest transaction spammer is still SatoshiDice. 50-100 Transactions per 4-20 hours isnt alot for p2pool...

[crazy_rabbit]

I plan on picking up a few 7970s for dirt cheap either here or on ebay when the market gets flooded with people getting out of GPU mining. Maybe a 2nd for crossfire. Maybe throw one in my brother's computer to replace his 7770. Who knows?!

+1

Basically.

[Odi]

p2pool is only a way to make sure you get more regular payouts than solo mining.  If you don't care about the payouts and are just mining for fun, then why load the network with more transactions?

People are already complaining that the blockchain is big and hard to download, p2pool is accelerating that because of all the small transactions per block found

im sry but this is total BS (bullshit), first take a look at how p2pool works and after that compare it with other websites/projects. The biggest transaction spammer is still SatoshiDice. 50-100 Transactions per 4-20 hours isnt alot for p2pool...

I did look at how p2pool works.  That's why it took me a day before responding instead of just pulling BS out of nowhere, because p2pool piqued my interest.

There is a key difference between SatoshiDice, which is an application of bitcoin that pays transaction fees, and p2pool, which is a miner that is paid transaction fees and generates coins.  Now granted I did not know about SatoshiDice when posting the above statement, but this is the rationale behind my statement when looking at it purely from a miner perspective:

With p2pool, each block found has an extra set of addresses to distribute the block to the peers.  With a centralized pool or solo miner, there is only one address to reward the block reward and fees to.  So if mining was only done with p2pool and no centralized pools or solo miners, then every block found would have that extra set of addresses, and the blockchain would be much larger.

Granted right now, it could be 50-100 addresses every 4-20 hours (I didn't look into the numbers, but that is what you said).  But my thought process is if p2pool finds every block, difficulty of main-net is 1 block every 10 minutes, difficulty of p2pool-net is 1 block every 10 seconds.  That means average work for a block is 60, and so each main-net block has up to 180 unique addresses to pay to.  That is 3600 bytes just in the addresses compared to 20 bytes, with 1400 more bytes to represent the actual bitcoin amount to send to each versus 8 bytes.  That is over half a megabyte extra every day regardless of any transactions done.

Finally, note I said If you don't care about the payouts and are just mining for fun, then why load the network with more transactions? in my original post.  I like the idea of p2pool much better than centralized pools because it is better for network security.  So I think that half a megabyte every day is worth it for network security considering the size of the rest of the transactions.  But if you don't care about more regular payouts, then solo mining is still better for the network (both in terms of security and blockchain size)

[K1773R]

p2pool is only a way to make sure you get more regular payouts than solo mining.  If you don't care about the payouts and are just mining for fun, then why load the network with more transactions?

People are already complaining that the blockchain is big and hard to download, p2pool is accelerating that because of all the small transactions per block found

im sry but this is total BS (bullshit), first take a look at how p2pool works and after that compare it with other websites/projects. The biggest transaction spammer is still SatoshiDice. 50-100 Transactions per 4-20 hours isnt alot for p2pool...

I did look at how p2pool works.  That's why it took me a day before responding instead of just pulling BS out of nowhere, because p2pool piqued my interest.

There is a key difference between SatoshiDice, which is an application of bitcoin that pays transaction fees, and p2pool, which is a miner that is paid transaction fees and generates coins.  Now granted I did not know about SatoshiDice when posting the above statement, but this is the rationale behind my statement when looking at it purely from a miner perspective:

With p2pool, each block found has an extra set of addresses to distribute the block to the peers.  With a centralized pool or solo miner, there is only one address to reward the block reward and fees to.  So if mining was only done with p2pool and no centralized pools or solo miners, then every block found would have that extra set of addresses, and the blockchain would be much larger.

Granted right now, it could be 50-100 addresses every 4-20 hours (I didn't look into the numbers, but that is what you said).  But my thought process is if p2pool finds every block, difficulty of main-net is 1 block every 10 minutes, difficulty of p2pool-net is 1 block every 10 seconds.  That means average work for a block is 60, and so each main-net block has up to 180 unique addresses to pay to.  That is 3600 bytes just in the addresses compared to 20 bytes, with 1400 more bytes to represent the actual bitcoin amount to send to each versus 8 bytes.  That is over half a megabyte extra every day regardless of any transactions done.

Finally, note I said If you don't care about the payouts and are just mining for fun, then why load the network with more transactions? in my original post.  I like the idea of p2pool much better than centralized pools because it is better for network security.  So I think that half a megabyte every day is worth it for network security considering the size of the rest of the transactions.  But if you don't care about more regular payouts, then solo mining is still better for the network (both in terms of security and blockchain size)

as for now it arent alot of transactions and i think it will stay that way since ppls dont really want to set it up nor understand backgrounds etc. the problem with the huge blockchain already exists and therefore i hope we find a good solution soon.
im sry if i insulted u in any way

If you don't care about the payouts and are just mining for fun, then why load the network with more transactions?

well if you mine for fun then you want to see some BTC coming in dont you? so why not picking the pool with the most payout

[bitvientiane]

  A 10kW electric furnace produces the same amount of heat equivalent to 10 kW of GPUs. 

This is not really true, as some of the energy get's converted into noise. For all intents and purposes this is correct though .

[sgravina]

  A 10kW electric furnace produces the same amount of heat equivalent to 10 kW of GPUs. 

This is not really true, as some of the energy get's converted into noise. For all intents and purposes this is correct though .

The noise get converted to heat too.  Not much heat but still heat.  It's all heat in the end.

[Odi]

well if you mine for fun then you want to see some BTC coming in dont you? so why not picking the pool with the most payout

If my ASIC pre-order never ships and others ship, I may point my GPUs to p2pool.  But if it arrives, then I will probably take out my GPUs and put the nVidia one back in.

I don't think I would point my ASIC at p2pool since I haven't really studied the effects of increasing your own difficulty for the benefit of the smaller guys in the pool.

[Syke]

With p2pool, each block found has an extra set of addresses to distribute the block to the peers.  With a centralized pool or solo miner, there is only one address to reward the block reward and fees to.

You do realize that p2pool isn't the only pool to distribute blocks directly to miners?

if p2pool finds every block

A virtual impossibility.

[scrybe]

  A 10kW electric furnace produces the same amount of heat equivalent to 10 kW of GPUs. 

This is not really true, as some of the energy get's converted into noise. For all intents and purposes this is correct though .

The noise get converted to heat too.  Not much heat but still heat.  It's all heat in the end.

But isn't it the transformer outside (on a pole, in a box, or underground) that is likely to heat up most from noise? 

[Isokivi]

Im most likeley going to end up "out of the mining game" because I dont have acces to competitive electricity-rates. But I started a small bitcoin buisness and will see if I can grow: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120686.0

[Graet]

Im most likeley going to end up "out of the mining game" because I dont have acces to competitive electricity-rates. But I started a small bitcoin buisness and will see if I can grow: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=120686.0

looks good, best of luck with the venture
we need more things to do with our coins

[Odi]

You do realize that p2pool isn't the only pool to distribute blocks directly to miners?

No I didn't realize.  But I've only mined in 2 pools ever, and I haven't studied how each pool works

if p2pool finds every block

A virtual impossibility.

I realize that, but even if it is a block every hour or every other block, the overhead is still there.  And you yourself brought up that other pools do direct payment, so if you combine all pools that do this, and combined they find every other block, my thought process is still valid.

[crazyates]

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=84569.msg1299719#msg1299719 

[K1773R]

You do realize that p2pool isn't the only pool to distribute blocks directly to miners?

No I didn't realize.  But I've only mined in 2 pools ever, and I haven't studied how each pool works

if p2pool finds every block

A virtual impossibility.

I realize that, but even if it is a block every hour or every other block, the overhead is still there.  And you yourself brought up that other pools do direct payment, so if you combine all pools that do this, and combined they find every other block, my thought process is still valid.

again, look at how many transactions are with satoshidice, compared to p2pool, p2pool is like 0.1% or even less...

[Odi]

again, look at how many transactions are with satoshidice, compared to p2pool, p2pool is like 0.1% or even less...

There is a key difference between SatoshiDice, which is an application of bitcoin that pays transaction fees, and p2pool, which is a miner that is paid transaction fees and generates coins.

When bitcoin hits mainstream, the block reward will be small and mining profit comes from transaction fees. Transaction fees are partially based on size already, and in the future I believe that it will increasingly depend on size.

if you don't care about more regular payouts, then solo mining is still better for the network (both in terms of security and blockchain size)

[Meatball]

When bitcoin hits mainstream, the block reward will be small and mining profit comes from transaction fees. Transaction fees are partially based on size already, and in the future I believe that it will increasingly depend on size.

I would love to know the percentage of people involved in BTC that are not:

A) Miners
B) Speculators

What do we think the percentage of people using BTC are actually 'using' BTC.

[hjr29]

When bitcoin hits mainstream, the block reward will be small and mining profit comes from transaction fees. Transaction fees are partially based on size already, and in the future I believe that it will increasingly depend on size.

I would love to know the percentage of people involved in BTC that are not:

A) Miners
B) Speculators

What do we think the percentage of people using BTC are actually 'using' BTC.

That's something that I'd be interested to know too. Right now, it looks like a lot of interest in Bitcoin is there purely for mining and speculation.

[Liquid]

keep on mining PPcoin 

[Odi]

I would love to know the percentage of people involved in BTC that are not:

A) Miners
B) Speculators

What do we think the percentage of people using BTC are actually 'using' BTC.

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone.  What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin.  Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

But the biggest problem for that is bitcoin to fiat exchange rate.  It fluctuates so much that businesses would have to change their prices too often for their liking, so the merchants that accept it now are probably also speculators banking on the fact that the bitcoins they make today are going to be worth a lot more next year.  That is why you see service-oriented merchants accepting bitcoins more than product-oriented merchants.  Their fiat costs are low, and so they are essentially working for free hoping that in a few years, they would be making 10x what they could have charged in fiat today (speculation merchants).

[bels]

Since bitcoin is still in its infancy, I would say almost everyone.  What bitcoin needs today to start on the path to becoming mainstream are merchants who will accept bitcoin.  Without merchants, it will never become mainstream.

This is harder than it sounds.  As a business trying to deal in bitcoin I have found it very difficult.  The reasons I have found it difficult is people for some reason think that I should be practically giving away the hardware I sell when I do it in bitcoin, who knows why that is but most times people want to offer my 2/3rds what I would sell something in USD for.  Also, because there is a big problem with trust transactions have been taking me longer to close.

I'm going to keep trying for now to sell things in bitcoin but I don't know for how much longer because it has started being a bit of a pain in the neck.