[GBT Protocol - ASIC] - BitArena.net - Mining Pool - Prop - 0% Fees.

[Greee]

He hasnt said anything about shutting down or changing payouts at this current time.. if he wants to change the payout system he will need to create a block and pay out accordingly.. otherwise he can just let the pool run and wait until it finds a block.. thats all.

Wow missing a few hours and there is a mess:). Thanks wknight , no one says about shutting down or scam.. i`m not a scamer and i will never be one. I`m thinking to prep more servers . more functions , ideas.. it will remain for the moment prop and no fees. And yes "hahahafr" we pay miners tax that ( 0.005 i think you refer ) = total 0% fees.

Waiting to find the first block and anyone who mined they will get theirs share/reward.

Thank you.

[Shadow383]

He hasnt said anything about shutting down or changing payouts at this current time.. if he wants to change the payout system he will need to create a block and pay out accordingly.. otherwise he can just let the pool run and wait until it finds a block.. thats all.

Wow missing a few hours and there is a mess:). Thanks wknight , no one says about shutting down or scam.. i`m not a scamer and i will never be one. I`m thinking to prep more servers . more functions , ideas.. it will remain for the moment prop and no fees. And yes "hahahafr" we pay miners tax that ( 0.005 i think you refer ) = total 0% fees.

Waiting to find the first block and anyone who mined they will get theirs share/reward.

Thank you.

Up to you 
Any chance of json stats?

[Greee]

With all that's been said I have to say it's a good interface on this pool - if it had any anti-hopper setup at all (even a rudimentary one like deepbit has) then I could see people using it.

It`s planned , calculated , everything.

[Greee]

Shadow383 , pm with exactly what do you need, make me a list and i will make it.

[Greee]

I`m waiting to find the first block and pay his share to Inaba then to deny Pool-hopping, if someones like Inaba leaves i`l split his reward with all active miners. Thinking...

[Shadow383]

I`m waiting to find the first block and pay his share to Inaba then to deny Pool-hopping, if someones like Inaba leaves i`l split his reward with all active miners. Thinking...

Whatever you do you need to make sure you make it very clear in advance.
What you're describing sounds remarkably similar to slush's score-proportional system, but you need to make it clear in advance.

[wknight]

Delay stats? Or better yet.. Do what Bitcoinpool does.

http://bitcoinpool.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103

If the round duration at the end of the round is greater than 1 hour, each user is looked at to see their 'window of participation', which is the time difference between their first and last submitted shares.

If the time difference between their shares is less than one half of the round duration, their share count will be reduced by 50% and the other half of their shares will be credited to an account setup by the pool operators.

We've monitored this over the past 10 rounds and seen no higher than $0.75 BTC worth of shares removed per round from pool hoppers, and on average, less than 15 accounts are affected per round.

We believe that this will become an effective deterrent for pool hopping, as it will remove the benefit of doing so, add incentive to stay participating in the pool, and at the same time, offer FairUser and Myself a minimal compensation for all of our hard work and late nights.

We considered our options and alternatives with this for quite a long time before deciding to implement it and we believe it is a fair method that allows an easy correctable course of action for each affected miner to take.

Edit: (Posted this below, but added it here too)

I wanted to clarify exactly what this is doing...

As an example, lets say the current round has been going for 2 hours when we solve a block. Our framed window for checking on pool hoppers will be 1 hour.

Each user will then have timestamps taken of their first and last share of the round to see if the difference between them is greater than or equal to 1 hour. If it is not, we will assume they're pool hopping and we will discount their shares by 50%.

It doesn't matter if the user joins 30 minutes into the round and leaves 30 minutes before it ends, as long as they were present for a minimum of 50% of the round duration, they will not be affected.

On average, this affects 5 - 10 users per round.

This does not make shares submitted later in the round have more value.
This does not favor GPU over CPU miners.
This does not affect any user if the round is shorter than 1 hour.
This is not a score-based system.

[Greee]

I`m waiting to find the first block and pay his share to Inaba then to deny Pool-hopping, if someones like Inaba leaves i`l split his reward with all active miners. Thinking...

Whatever you do you need to make sure you make it very clear in advance.
What you're describing sounds remarkably similar to slush's score-proportional system, but you need to make it clear in advance.

slush? cool i have no idea... i was just thinking. I`m trying to make it right for all.

[Shadow383]

Delay stats? Or better yet.. Do what Bitcoinpool does.

http://bitcoinpool.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=103

If the round duration at the end of the round is greater than 1 hour, each user is looked at to see their 'window of participation', which is the time difference between their first and last submitted shares.

If the time difference between their shares is less than one half of the round duration, their share count will be reduced by 50% and the other half of their shares will be credited to an account setup by the pool operators.

We've monitored this over the past 10 rounds and seen no higher than $0.75 BTC worth of shares removed per round from pool hoppers, and on average, less than 15 accounts are affected per round.

We believe that this will become an effective deterrent for pool hopping, as it will remove the benefit of doing so, add incentive to stay participating in the pool, and at the same time, offer FairUser and Myself a minimal compensation for all of our hard work and late nights.

We considered our options and alternatives with this for quite a long time before deciding to implement it and we believe it is a fair method that allows an easy correctable course of action for each affected miner to take.

Edit: (Posted this below, but added it here too)

I wanted to clarify exactly what this is doing...

As an example, lets say the current round has been going for 2 hours when we solve a block. Our framed window for checking on pool hoppers will be 1 hour.

Each user will then have timestamps taken of their first and last share of the round to see if the difference between them is greater than or equal to 1 hour. If it is not, we will assume they're pool hopping and we will discount their shares by 50%.

It doesn't matter if the user joins 30 minutes into the round and leaves 30 minutes before it ends, as long as they were present for a minimum of 50% of the round duration, they will not be affected.

On average, this affects 5 - 10 users per round.

This does not make shares submitted later in the round have more value.
This does not favor GPU over CPU miners.
This does not affect any user if the round is shorter than 1 hour.
This is not a score-based system.

Thankfully it's still profitable to hop at 52% 

[Tittiez]

And yes "hahahafr" we pay miners tax that ( 0.005 i think you refer ) = total 0% fees.
Thank you.

You misunderstand I think. Or maybe I misunderstand you.

He doesn't mean the fees included of a transaction/withdraw, he means the transaction fees included in a block.

For example, Block 200409 has 0.03045288BTC in fees included in the block from transactions. The actual block is worth 50.03045288BTC, so whoever mined that block was rewarded MORE then 50BTC.


Does your pool included those transaction fees into users payouts? Say a block was 50 + .25 (50 for the block reward, .25 in transaction fees included in the block), does the pool also give that .25 to the miners?

[Tittiez]

Thankfully it's still profitable to hop at 52% 

Thankfully if you donated even a tiny 2%, the anti-hop doesn't affect you. Seriously, just set your donation amount over 0% and hop away.

[Tittiez]

No one has ever asked where I got the name Inaba...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atsushi_Inaba

 

[Inaba]

Nope, not that Inaba.  It does involve hopping though, in a tangential sort of way.

[Tittiez]

Nope, not that Inaba.  It does involve hopping though, in a tangential sort of way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_of_Inaba

Did I hit the nail? Hare, hop.

[-ck]

因幡の白兎っていうの神話的作り話からの「いなば」でしょう

[kano]

因幡の白兎っていうの神話的作り話からの「いなば」でしょう

http://atky.cocolog-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/06/17/120831971718716130227.jpg

[DrHaribo]

Delay stats? Or better yet.. Do what Bitcoinpool does.

BitcoinPool is being brutally pool hopped. Deepbit which delays stats is also being pool hopped but the pool is so big that the effect of the pool hopping is not that great. Both of those pools have anti-hopper measures that are mostly ineffective. BitcoinPool's anti-hopper system is more likely to hurt innocent miners than actual pool hoppers who know what they are doing.

Those pools should just switch over to a fair reward system. It's pretty simple, most pools have done it.

See how much the hoppable pools are being abused at the bottom of this page: http://organofcorti.blogspot.no/2012/09/23rd-september-weekly-pool-statistics.html

Those are failed reward systems with failed anti-hopper measures. Noone should copy their methods. It would be a really bad idea for BitArena to go with a broken reward system, so let's just forget the systems that have been proven not to work.

[organofcorti]

Delay stats? Or better yet.. Do what Bitcoinpool does.

Thankfully it's still profitable to hop at 52% 

Nope. It can't be profitable after 43.45%, it's just impossible. Mostly the share value expectation is 1.0 at 23.6% or so, but as the pool hashrate increases to a larger proportion of D, the hop window stretches to a maximum of 0.4345xD - sort of like what happens with Slush, only more so.

Run a few simulations and you'll see I'm right. I'll get around to posting a derivation some day, and calculate how much fulltimers there lose (especially since only half of the hopper tax is returned to fulltimers). From what I see most hoppers are leaving a 23.6% regardless of hashrate and not profiting as much as they could.

...

@ Greee I know certain forum members will hate me for repeating what Dr Haribo has said but there is no future in using a payout method which unfairly penalises fulltime miners.

First, read https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_summary.pdf and https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf. From the first, you can pick and choose a reward method that suits you. From the second, you get more details on each reward method.

PPS: You'll see that you can calculate exactly how much risk you want to take with PPS. In Meni's example, the bitcoin block reward is 50 btc, the risk of bankruptcy you'll will to accept is 1/1000, and the fee is 5%, then you'll need to have a bankroll of 3454btc to start the pool - although if you wait until the block reward is halved, then the required bankroll to start is 1727 btc.

PPLNS: It's a little trickier than you might think to implement in a completely pool hopper invulnerable way. Just ask Dr. Haribo. It's intuitively easier to grasp than DGM, but variance and maturity time can't be controlled to the same extent.

DGM: Tricky, and you might want to ask Inaba or Graet (if Inaba doesn't want to lose a hoppable pool ) for some help. But you can control a great deal about your miners' experience by varying it's variables.

That's it, Greee. There are no other options if you want to retain fulltime miners.

Good luck!

[Inaba]

Nope, not that Inaba.  It does involve hopping though, in a tangential sort of way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hare_of_Inaba

Did I hit the nail? Hare, hop.

Dang I hadn't seen that before, but no that's not it.  But I'm pretty sure it's both related and probably the genesis of my name origin in a weird sort of way.

[Greee]

Delay stats? Or better yet.. Do what Bitcoinpool does.

Thankfully it's still profitable to hop at 52% 

Nope. It can't be profitable after 43.45%, it's just impossible. Mostly the share value expectation is 1.0 at 23.6% or so, but as the pool hashrate increases to a larger proportion of D, the hop window stretches to a maximum of 0.4345xD - sort of like what happens with Slush, only more so.

Run a few simulations and you'll see I'm right. I'll get around to posting a derivation some day, and calculate how much fulltimers there lose (especially since only half of the hopper tax is returned to fulltimers). From what I see most hoppers are leaving a 23.6% regardless of hashrate and not profiting as much as they could.

...

@ Greee I know certain forum members will hate me for repeating what Dr Haribo has said but there is no future in using a payout method which unfairly penalises fulltime miners.

First, read https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_summary.pdf and https://bitcoil.co.il/pool_analysis.pdf. From the first, you can pick and choose a reward method that suits you. From the second, you get more details on each reward method.

PPS: You'll see that you can calculate exactly how much risk you want to take with PPS. In Meni's example, the bitcoin block reward is 50 btc, the risk of bankruptcy you'll will to accept is 1/1000, and the fee is 5%, then you'll need to have a bankroll of 3454btc to start the pool - although if you wait until the block reward is halved, then the required bankroll to start is 1727 btc.

PPLNS: It's a little trickier than you might think to implement in a completely pool hopper invulnerable way. Just ask Dr. Haribo. It's intuitively easier to grasp than DGM, but variance and maturity time can't be controlled to the same extent.

DGM: Tricky, and you might want to ask Inaba or Graet (if Inaba doesn't want to lose a hoppable pool ) for some help. But you can control a great deal about your miners' experience by varying it's variables.

That's it, Greee. There are no other options if you want to retain fulltime miners.

Good luck!

Thanks organofcorti , i`l check.