Already delays in BFL shipment plans?

[scrybe]

... I  worked in construction where the term fabrication means something different than the semiconductor industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefabrication

Other than that, no harm intended.

Yep, Fab work happens at the smallest level, putting the complexities for the product into a pre-packaged little box with wires (or balls) on it. Think of it like roof trusses, wall panels, or shipping containers that can be either custom fabricated, or acquired in bulk to spec. Take some of these onsite (your house) with some other bits and a soldering iron, and BAM, you get to assemble your own miner. Or in my case cook half your ASIC chips trying...

Going all the way up to a pre-fab mobile-home is what you get once you include the assembly house in this analogy, where the boxes and ducts and such are put together offsite. Then in our case the local dealer who designed the whole darn thing gets to put their custom paint job and fixtures in and ship them out.

Luckily Mini-Rig SC units don't need a "Wide Load" sign, so the scale of shipping can be international without to much extra cost.

Honestly I think they are at least able to put the ASIC's on at the BFL facility and have at least some pre-fab boards with most everything else on them. It's just a hunch, but the way they have been talking about "working hard to convert Jalepeno's into Little SC's" was interesting to me. At least some level of re-work seems to be happening at a minimum.

[Aseras]

The sad thing is, BFL's eggs are all in one basket. They are counting in just in time manufacturing. One hiccup, one parts vendor shortage or significant delay or a chip respin because it was rushed and they are SOL.

[AndrewBUD]

a lot of people will be SOL if that's the case.


They're assuming that everything is going to work out perfectly.

[niko]

Before I blow a gasket from reading the FUCKING STUPIDITY ignorance on this thread, let me set something straight:

1) A "fab house" or "fab" does NOT assemble boards.  They make chips.  That's it.  A "lot" or batch of chips takes somewhere between 4 and 10 weeks depending on the "process" (130nm, 65nm, 22nm, etc.) and how much the customer is willing to spend.  According to Josh, they have paid the maximum for their fab to get them out ASAP.  IF they are in 65nm process, I think this should be roughly 6 to 8 weeks - depending on which fab they are using.

2) Chips and other components are soldered onto boards at an "assembly house".

3) After BFL gets the "assembled" boards from the external assembly house (or done in-house in the near future), then they finish putting it together with heatsink and metal box then ship it out.

So go back and read the posts in this thread with the above in mind.

Disclaimer:
I have ordered a BFL SC Single.
I have ordered a 54Gh/s bASIC.
(I bought a ticket for each of the horses to win.  )

You forgot 4) use the rig you paid for to mine a little bit, on the main net, under pretense of testing.

[scrybe]

You forgot 4) use the rig you paid for to mine a little bit, on the main net, under pretense of testing.

That issue is pretty much dead and buried. There have been statements from all the manufacturers (except ASICMINER who have a different model) that they will be using either Testnet in a box (bASIC, BFL) or custom testing software (ngzhang)

I agree, there will always be some chance that some mainnet mining could happen and we would never know, but that would be a direct contradiction of public statements that would serve as grounds for a lawsuit IRL. There are always people that are going to call them on it, but the statements are out there, and until any evidence to the contrary comes up I believe that they have passed the bar (by having a significant number of current satisfied customers and massive buy-in in the form of preorders, as well as communicating and updating their plans in a fairly coherent, if not optimal, way) to have their statements believed, but verified. BFL is doing a tour, Tom is taking on volunteer workers, and tons of folks are glued to their market and mining monitors like they are Oracles, hoping to a spike that might be ASIC testing.

Given the scrutiny they are under, risks to personal liberty and livelihood, likelihood of being caught (we know who they are), as well as the limited rewards (mining hawks see 1% deltas and freak out, what happens if they see 3TH come online at once? and that only has a return of $100k over 2 weeks) the idea of them changing their policies, or tolerating their employees sneaking units out the back door, is simply absurd.

FYI, if someone does violate the policy we have a nice class action lawsuit on our end, employee prosecution on their end, and BFL in the middle. Ain't no way they want to be in that pickle.

Edit: I understand about old info, no trolling intended, sorry about the knee-jerk assumption.

[niko]

You forgot 4) use the rig you paid for to mine a little bit, on the main net, under pretense of testing.

Quit trolling, that issue is pretty much dead and buried. There have been statements from all the manufacturers (except ASICMINER who have a different model) that they will be using either Testnet in a box (bASIC, BFL) or custom testing software (ngzhang)

I agree, there will always be some chance that some mainnet mining could happen and we would never know, but that would be a direct contradiction of public statements that would serve as grounds for a lawsuit IRL.

I remembered the threads from about a month ago where BFL were avoiding to commit to not "test" on the mainnet. Before posting this response, I checked the BFL website (found nothing), and their forums, where I found their statement that they won't be testing on mainnet:   https://forums.butterflylabs.com/showthread.php/52-ASIC-Pre-Shipment-Testing-Policy
I apologize for posting based on old information. I was not trying to troll.

[Mobius]

The sad thing is, BFL's eggs are all in one basket. They are counting in just in time manufacturing. One hiccup, one parts vendor shortage or significant delay or a chip respin because it was rushed and they are SOL.

Actually, it's not just them, everyone who ordered from BFL is SOL if that happens.

[greyhawk]

a lot of people will be SOL if that's the case.


They're assuming that everything is going to work out perfectly.

Don't worry. I'm sure everything will turn out just fine. Bang those things together and BAM: Überminer.

I mean their prototype works pret.....

Inaba, I guess you didn't see my question yesterday. Does BFL have a working (hashing) prototype ASIC miner?

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

..... oh....


oh dear.

[scrybe]

The sad thing is, BFL's eggs are all in one basket. They are counting in just in time manufacturing. One hiccup, one parts vendor shortage or significant delay or a chip respin because it was rushed and they are SOL.

Actually, it's not just them, everyone who ordered from BFL is SOL if that happens.

Actually they have inhouse assembly capability to some extent, so they are ahead of the pack as far as diversification of sources. All the other manufacturers have the same issue, but since they have gone from 0-60 in about 6 months (assuming full preorder shipments by EoY) the risk of having to respin and delay an extra 6-8 weeks would be considered minor compared with a whole second set of masks and batches half the size.


At the volumes we are talking about here is does not make any sense to negotiate and maintain multiple contracts for each part, maybe down the road if mining is a multi-billion dollar industry someday ($1000 bitcoins?) We are already talking about what the fabs would call "marginal quantities" at the quantities we are asking for. It's not like BFL put in for 100,000 7.5GH/s chips/month or something, they did a lot run of ~25,000 by current mining estimates, and will do another in a month or 2, or maybe they invested in 100k and are planning on selling them well into the new year (which would explain some of the longevity statements we have seen)

In any event they are not producing millions of these things like they are iPhones, it's just low thousands (or dozens for MiniRigs)

[Starlightbreaker]

a lot of people will be SOL if that's the case.


They're assuming that everything is going to work out perfectly.

Don't worry. I'm sure everything will turn out just fine. Bang those things together and BAM: Überminer.

I mean their prototype works pret.....

Inaba, I guess you didn't see my question yesterday. Does BFL have a working (hashing) prototype ASIC miner?

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

..... oh....


oh dear.

all those fancy photos, but none are working.


heh, crazy stuff.

[tacotime]

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

The bASIC ASICs are already taped out from the wafer...

[niko]

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

The bASIC ASICs are already taped out from the wafer...

You mean wafers are diced, and devices ready for packaging? I wasn't following bASIC recently, that's quite impressive pace if true.

[Bogart]

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

The bASIC ASICs are already taped out from the wafer...

Maybe you could tell us just what you think "taped out" means.

[scrybe]

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

The bASIC ASICs are already taped out from the wafer...

Maybe you could tell us just what you think "taped out" means.

Here, current status from the enemy thread m'lord!

... I will answer some of the questions I have seen posted
...
ASICS have been in fabrication for some weeks now,

The board design and PCB layout is currently taking place, I have two of the best engineering and layout firms in California working on this , and it will be spectacular

...

When the board design is completed it does not take long to fab the PCBs and get the boards assembled. The assembly house that I use - I have been working with since May - they have assembled hundreds of boards for me and they are one of the best out there. I can have all 1000 boards assembled in 5 days.

I believe that the mask set has been created and they are waiting on the wafer run, but I have not seen detail on those stages recently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out Tape-out simply means that they have sent the files to the manufacturer to make the masks.

[Soros Shorts]

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

The bASIC ASICs are already taped out from the wafer...

Maybe you could tell us just what you think "taped out" means.

The data tape has been put into a Fedex/DHL overnight envelope and already out the door in the hands of the courier and on the way to the fab?

I guess nowadays people just SFTP the files to the fab.

[regular]

I think that's all conjecture at this time, since there has been no official taping out etc from Tom regarding the bASIC either.  It's still up in the air who will ship first right now.

[scrybe]

I think that's all conjecture at this time, since there has been no official taping out etc from Tom regarding the bASIC either.  It's still up in the air who will ship first right now.

Look back up at the quote I used 3 posts ago.

The ASIC's are "in fabrication" which means they have taped out and are somewhere in the mask/wafer/die making process.

Honestly I think he announced it within a week or 2 of the bASIC announcement. He held off opening things up until he had finished his prep work, and it sounded like he even had an ugly hack of a prototype at that time.

Anyone who have not taped out yet is unlikely to deliver before the end of the year, and I'm pretty sure even Avalon has already passed the tape-out mark, now that I think back.

The PCB Design and layout is independent, and much easier than the tape-out process, so it generally comes after the parts specifics are final to prevent rework (like another manufacturer is likely doing)

[poon-TANG]

No, we are waiting on our ASIC chips right now, as I've stated in a number of other places, though it's understandable if you have missed the posts, since they are spread out everywhere.

The bASIC ASICs are already taped out from the wafer...

Maybe you could tell us just what you think "taped out" means.

Here, current status from the enemy thread m'lord!

... I will answer some of the questions I have seen posted
...
ASICS have been in fabrication for some weeks now,

The board design and PCB layout is currently taking place, I have two of the best engineering and layout firms in California working on this , and it will be spectacular

...

When the board design is completed it does not take long to fab the PCBs and get the boards assembled. The assembly house that I use - I have been working with since May - they have assembled hundreds of boards for me and they are one of the best out there. I can have all 1000 boards assembled in 5 days.

I believe that the mask set has been created and they are waiting on the wafer run, but I have not seen detail on those stages recently. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tape-out Tape-out simply means that they have sent the files to the manufacturer to make the masks.

I think that's all conjecture at this time, since there has been no official taping out etc from Tom regarding the bASIC either.  It's still up in the air who will ship first right now.

Look back up at the quote I used 3 posts ago.

The ASIC's are "in fabrication" which means they have taped out and are somewhere in the mask/wafer/die making process.

Honestly I think he announced it within a week or 2 of the bASIC announcement. He held off opening things up until he had finished his prep work, and it sounded like he even had an ugly hack of a prototype at that time.

Anyone who have not taped out yet is unlikely to deliver before the end of the year, and I'm pretty sure even Avalon has already passed the tape-out mark, now that I think back.

He states they are still in the PCB design/layout phase. Which means if all goes well and all the parts are on hand they should be ready hopefully by mid Dec/Jan.

[jjshabadoo]

I don't believe any of the ASIC vendors will shop before the block reward and not because they couldn't.

When there is money involved, no one can be trusted. Especially shady bitcoin vendors.

Bitcoin is too easily hidden as income which makes the opportunity even more tempting.

[Xfinity]

I don't believe any of the ASIC vendors will shop before the block reward and not because they couldn't.

I am starting to believe this as well, I was hoping in starting the ASICs before the end of block reward cut.