Transgender

[bryant.coleman]

At the least one would have to split the group of "transgenders" into (A) crazy (B) confused (C) right "in their own mind"

In my opinion, there should be one more category: "Forced transgenders"

An example is here:

http://dailycaller.com/2015/07/04/california-family-discusses-4-year-old-transgender-child/

In this category, the parents (usually the LGBT types) force their normal children to under go gender re-alignment surgery and become trans-sexuals.

[1714890186]

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[cooldgamer]

whoever is born a man is a man, these folks are mentally ill and need treatment, if they told you they were ducks or aliens from outer space trapped in human beings' bodies would you believe them

Look who's mentally ill and need treatment here. Here's your free mirror:


I hope medicines will work for you.

Not sure why saddamphbuh hasn't made a good analogy.

Some people do believe they are Napoleon.  But they are crazy, not right.

That's not a valid analogy at all.  You don't have a 50% chance of being Napoleon before you are born, and its not possible for a brain to develop and make you half Napoleon based on hormones getting screwed up.  

oh, hormones.  But now you are into easily measured physical quantities that collaborate mental feelings and subjective viewports.

You are no longer in the realm of "I believe, therefore IT IS."

Well I don't particularly think somebody would want to go through all that trouble for no reason.  My stance for this thread has stayed the same at there is some sort of a cause, and trans people should be treated with respect like anybody else.  If nothing else they should feel free to live without worrying about their own safety. 

Please feel free to point out any post where I said something contradicting there being a physical cause.  Pangender one doesn't count, I was just grabbing a definition from the tumblr book of genders

[Spendulus]

whoever is born a man is a man, these folks are mentally ill and need treatment, if they told you they were ducks or aliens from outer space trapped in human beings' bodies would you believe them

Look who's mentally ill and need treatment here. Here's your free mirror:


I hope medicines will work for you.

Not sure why saddamphbuh hasn't made a good analogy.

Some people do believe they are Napoleon.  But they are crazy, not right.

That's not a valid analogy at all.  You don't have a 50% chance of being Napoleon before you are born, and its not possible for a brain to develop and make you half Napoleon based on hormones getting screwed up.  

oh, hormones.  But now you are into easily measured physical quantities that collaborate mental feelings and subjective viewports.

You are no longer in the realm of "I believe, therefore IT IS."

Well I don't particularly think somebody would want to go through all that trouble for no reason.  My stance for this thread has stayed the same at there is some sort of a cause, and trans people should be treated with respect like anybody else.  If nothing else they should feel free to live without worrying about their own safety. 

Please feel free to point out any post where I said something contradicting there being a physical cause.  Pangender one doesn't count, I was just grabbing a definition from the tumblr book of genders

You mean, unless they were crazy or confused.

Which is the point I was making, wasn't it?

[cooldgamer]

whoever is born a man is a man, these folks are mentally ill and need treatment, if they told you they were ducks or aliens from outer space trapped in human beings' bodies would you believe them

Look who's mentally ill and need treatment here. Here's your free mirror:


I hope medicines will work for you.

Not sure why saddamphbuh hasn't made a good analogy.

Some people do believe they are Napoleon.  But they are crazy, not right.

That's not a valid analogy at all.  You don't have a 50% chance of being Napoleon before you are born, and its not possible for a brain to develop and make you half Napoleon based on hormones getting screwed up.  

oh, hormones.  But now you are into easily measured physical quantities that collaborate mental feelings and subjective viewports.

You are no longer in the realm of "I believe, therefore IT IS."

Well I don't particularly think somebody would want to go through all that trouble for no reason. My stance for this thread has stayed the same at there is some sort of a cause, and trans people should be treated with respect like anybody else.  If nothing else they should feel free to live without worrying about their own safety.  

Please feel free to point out any post where I said something contradicting there being a physical cause.  Pangender one doesn't count, I was just grabbing a definition from the tumblr book of genders

You mean, unless they were crazy or confused.

Which is the point I was making, wasn't it?

Aren't we all a bit crazy?  Feel free to ignore the studies showing there is a biological basis all you want, but it's there nonetheless.

Even if we toss that out the window, what difference does it make?  Is it that much of an effort to make not to be a total asshole to people that have enough on their plates?  Does it take that much effort to not confront somebody to tell them what you think about their lifestyle?  If everybody could do that we'd be just fine.  There are some people that will just never be happy, but the vast majority would be totally cool with that.  

It's your right to be an asshole if you really want, but at the end of the day why bother? 

[Spendulus]

whoever is born a man is a man, these folks are mentally ill and need treatment, if they told you they were ducks or aliens from outer space trapped in human beings' bodies would you believe them

Look who's mentally ill and need treatment here. Here's your free mirror:


I hope medicines will work for you.

Not sure why saddamphbuh hasn't made a good analogy.

Some people do believe they are Napoleon.  But they are crazy, not right.

That's not a valid analogy at all.  You don't have a 50% chance of being Napoleon before you are born, and its not possible for a brain to develop and make you half Napoleon based on hormones getting screwed up.  

oh, hormones.  But now you are into easily measured physical quantities that collaborate mental feelings and subjective viewports.

You are no longer in the realm of "I believe, therefore IT IS."

Well I don't particularly think somebody would want to go through all that trouble for no reason. My stance for this thread has stayed the same at there is some sort of a cause, and trans people should be treated with respect like anybody else.  If nothing else they should feel free to live without worrying about their own safety.  

Please feel free to point out any post where I said something contradicting there being a physical cause.  Pangender one doesn't count, I was just grabbing a definition from the tumblr book of genders

You mean, unless they were crazy or confused.

Which is the point I was making, wasn't it?

Aren't we all a bit crazy?  Feel free to ignore the studies showing there is a biological basis all you want, but it's there nonetheless.

Even if we toss that out the window, what difference does it make?  Is it that much of an effort to make not to be a total asshole to people that have enough on their plates?  Does it take that much effort to not confront somebody to tell them what you think about their lifestyle?  If everybody could do that we'd be just fine.  There are some people that will just never be happy, but the vast majority would be totally cool with that.  

It's your right to be an asshole if you really want, but at the end of the day why bother? 

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

[cooldgamer]

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

I realize there are legitimately crazy people, but somebody that's trans shouldn't fall under the definition of crazy if that's the one you want to go by.  These people are fully able to lead fulfilling lives, just happen to have some gender issues to be addressed and fixed one way or another.  Can't even make a tongue-in-cheek comment without getting jumped on

I never tried to suppress your freedom of speech, I just pointed out that you're being an asshole by trying to tell people how to live their lives.  You're not helping anybody by telling somebody that's got dysphoria that they are the gender they don't think they should be, somebody that far down the path to accept it isn't going to switch around based on a stranger.

[Spendulus]

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

I realize there are legitimately crazy people, but somebody that's trans shouldn't fall under the definition of crazy if that's the one you want to go by.  These people are fully able to lead fulfilling lives, just happen to have some gender issues to be addressed and fixed one way or another.  Can't even make a tongue-in-cheek comment without getting jumped on

I never tried to suppress your freedom of speech, I just pointed out that you're being an asshole by trying to tell people how to live their lives....

If you look at what I actually said...


And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

You'll see that it includes your comments, as well as opposing points of view.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to help people who are confused and troubled.

And once you put that under a government services umbrella, they gonna tell you what to say.

[cooldgamer]

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

I realize there are legitimately crazy people, but somebody that's trans shouldn't fall under the definition of crazy if that's the one you want to go by.  These people are fully able to lead fulfilling lives, just happen to have some gender issues to be addressed and fixed one way or another.  Can't even make a tongue-in-cheek comment without getting jumped on

I never tried to suppress your freedom of speech, I just pointed out that you're being an asshole by trying to tell people how to live their lives....

If you look at what I actually said...


And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

You'll see that it includes your comments, as well as opposing points of view.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to help people who are confused and troubled.

And once you put that under a government services umbrella, they gonna tell you what to say.

Fair enough.  Short of actual harassment (which we already have laws for) there's no reason for the government to get involved in it.  I think we can all agree on that part.  I'm just saying your idea of 'helping' people really isn't helping anybody, just making people feel shitty. 

[TheButterZone]

I would "fall" into the spring of a drowned girl or any use any other magical transformation device.

[Spendulus]

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

I realize there are legitimately crazy people, but somebody that's trans shouldn't fall under the definition of crazy if that's the one you want to go by.  These people are fully able to lead fulfilling lives, just happen to have some gender issues to be addressed and fixed one way or another.  Can't even make a tongue-in-cheek comment without getting jumped on

I never tried to suppress your freedom of speech, I just pointed out that you're being an asshole by trying to tell people how to live their lives....

If you look at what I actually said...


And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

You'll see that it includes your comments, as well as opposing points of view.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to help people who are confused and troubled.

And once you put that under a government services umbrella, they gonna tell you what to say.

Fair enough.  Short of actual harassment (which we already have laws for) there's no reason for the government to get involved in it.  I think we can all agree on that part.  I'm just saying your idea of 'helping' people really isn't helping anybody, just making people feel shitty. 

I really don't care.  Recently had a conversation with a friend who's teen aged son had taken up heroin.  This little conversation had to do with "tough love."  Sometimes people need to feel shitty.  You are not here to create and maintain a warm and happy basket of feelings.  If you want to discuss problematic issues, be prepared to face the problems.

"Men that think they are women" in India/Pakistan (can't recall the term in that culture), as I recall, have about a 25% HIV rate.

[cooldgamer]

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

I realize there are legitimately crazy people, but somebody that's trans shouldn't fall under the definition of crazy if that's the one you want to go by.  These people are fully able to lead fulfilling lives, just happen to have some gender issues to be addressed and fixed one way or another.  Can't even make a tongue-in-cheek comment without getting jumped on

I never tried to suppress your freedom of speech, I just pointed out that you're being an asshole by trying to tell people how to live their lives....

If you look at what I actually said...


And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

You'll see that it includes your comments, as well as opposing points of view.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to help people who are confused and troubled.

And once you put that under a government services umbrella, they gonna tell you what to say.

Fair enough.  Short of actual harassment (which we already have laws for) there's no reason for the government to get involved in it.  I think we can all agree on that part.  I'm just saying your idea of 'helping' people really isn't helping anybody, just making people feel shitty.  

I really don't care.  Recently had a conversation with a friend who's teen aged son had taken up heroin.  This little conversation had to do with "tough love."  Sometimes people need to feel shitty.  You are not here to create and maintain a warm and happy basket of feelings.  If you want to discuss problematic issues, be prepared to face the problems.

"Men that think they are women" in India/Pakistan (can't recall the term in that culture), as I recall, have about a 25% HIV rate.

Then HIV prevention needs to be focused on.  It's not going to do anything to tell somebody that their lifestyle could be harmful and they should just go back.  As the studies I've referenced numerous times show, it's not exactly a choice.  It's not going to be the first, or the last time these people have heard somebody disagree with how they live.  Whatever the intentions, it's just not going to work.  Harm reduction is the way to go.  


Edit: Here's an interesting summary of studies breaking down some reasons the HIV rate is so high among them: http://www.apa.org/pi/aids/programs/hope/training/hiv-transgender.pdf

tl;dr:

-High sex work rate due to workplace discrimination, validation as the sex of their choosing, and/or money for related medical procedures

-High substance abuse rate, with 17% of all trans people reporting sharing needles

-Risky sexual behavior with both primary partner and as sex worker (when applicable), partially due to hormones

-Hormone injection, often sharing needles

[Spendulus]

Because you're just plain wrong.

No, we are not all a "bit crazy."  Clearly you haven't been around crazy.

Here's a bit of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWaFqw8XnpA

And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

I realize there are legitimately crazy people, but somebody that's trans shouldn't fall under the definition of crazy if that's the one you want to go by.  These people are fully able to lead fulfilling lives, just happen to have some gender issues to be addressed and fixed one way or another.  Can't even make a tongue-in-cheek comment without getting jumped on

I never tried to suppress your freedom of speech, I just pointed out that you're being an asshole by trying to tell people how to live their lives....

If you look at what I actually said...


And as for your comment bolded above, there's been a lot of good done in the world because one person told another he was headed down a bad path.  Does not mean they were always right, but suppressing that freedom of speech is not a way to optimize outcomes.  No need to get preachy, by the way.

You'll see that it includes your comments, as well as opposing points of view.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with trying to help people who are confused and troubled.

And once you put that under a government services umbrella, they gonna tell you what to say.

Fair enough.  Short of actual harassment (which we already have laws for) there's no reason for the government to get involved in it.  I think we can all agree on that part.  I'm just saying your idea of 'helping' people really isn't helping anybody, just making people feel shitty.  

I really don't care.  Recently had a conversation with a friend who's teen aged son had taken up heroin.  This little conversation had to do with "tough love."  Sometimes people need to feel shitty.  You are not here to create and maintain a warm and happy basket of feelings.  If you want to discuss problematic issues, be prepared to face the problems.

"Men that think they are women" in India/Pakistan (can't recall the term in that culture), as I recall, have about a 25% HIV rate.

Then HIV prevention needs to be focused on.  It's not going to do anything to tell somebody that their lifestyle could be harmful and they should just go back.  As the studies I've referenced numerous times show, it's not exactly a choice.  It's not going to be the first, or the last time these people have heard somebody disagree with how they live.  Whatever the intentions, it's just not going to work.  Harm reduction is the way to go.  


Edit: Here's an interesting summary of studies breaking down some reasons the HIV rate is so high among them: http://www.apa.org/pi/aids/programs/hope/training/hiv-transgender.pdf

tl;dr:

-High sex work rate due to workplace discrimination, validation as the sex of their choosing, and/or money for related medical procedures

-High substance abuse rate, with 17% of all trans people reporting sharing needles

-Risky sexual behavior with both primary partner and as sex worker (when applicable), partially due to hormones

-Hormone injection, often sharing needles

You mean they're all fucked up?