Do we have the right to know - to Administrators

[loshia]

Dear admins,
Folowing ck advise from this post
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=854368.msg11961005#msg11961005
I want you to ask the folowing:
Do we have the right to know which accounts do use same ip during posting?
To clarify things I do not want you to publish account ip's.
I want you to publish sorted clas c subnet of people with different accounts
Something like
User a
User b
User c
Are posting from same clas c network segment.

Thank you very much for your prompt answer

Ps: I guess that this effort is nothing more than a simple sql/mysql or watever sql select group join query.
I am particularly interested in last six mounts. I do not mind years back of course

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[BadBear]

Giving you so little information would do way more harm than good. Checking for alts is more involved than just seeing if 2 users shared an IP.

[loshia]

Giving you so little information would do way more harm than good. Checking for alts is more involved than just seeing if 2 users shared an IP.

Thank you for your prompt answer. Pleas excuse me but as my English is not my mother language, what does "alts" exactly mean?
Thank you very much in advance .

[Quickseller]

Alts= alternate accounts, or other accounts owned/controlled by you.

[loshia]

Alts= alternate accounts, or other accounts owned/controlled by you.

Aha so I am asking for simple checks that is all. It is up to US to decide using our heads if those are alts or just coincidence -  NAT proxy or whatever.
I can not agree that it will harm though.
For instance -we have proven scam I am not gona cal names. Then suddenly new thread pops up with newbie account posting you know I saw this and that
What harm can cause a list which CLEARLY SHOWS that proven scammer and newbie are using same clas c without revealing their ip adresss
Second newbie comes and says hey you know I both this from here and it works great. Another one shortly comes and says yeah same here and so on
Just a  list to be published somwhere regulary that is what I am after

[BadBear]

There are many reasons people may share an IP.

-Tor
-VPN
-other proxies
-ever posted using your phone while on a friends wifi, or a public wifi? Sorry, you're an alt now.
-coffeeshops
-offices
-libraries
-on and on

Not to mention the fact that it is not uncommon, in less developed countries, for ISP's to use NAT systems and put many, many users behind the same IP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier-grade_NAT). To simplify this, it's the same way all your computers and devices within your local network have different IPs, but to the outside world you have one.

Yes there are ways to find alts, but seeing users share an IP is just a start, that by itself in most cases is not conclusive.

Alts= alternate accounts, or other accounts owned/controlled by you.

Aha so I am asking for simple checks that is all. It is up US to decide using our heads if those are alts or just coincidence -  NAT proxy or whatever
Just a regular statistic to be published somwhere regulary that is what I am after

You wouldn't have the information you need to arrive a decision, it would just be a guess.

Besides, it's not any of your business. It's not any of mine either really, unless the person is scamming or breaking forum rules. In that case I will usually share what information I can.

[loshia]

I know very very good all the tricks   please save your time.what I know that humans do mistakes and most important most of them are so stupid that they will have to google all of the above to find out what it means
Once again do we have the right to know it or not?

[Quickseller]

I know very very good all the tricks  please save your time.what I know that humans do mistakes and most important most of them are so stupid that they will have google all of the above to find out what it means
Once again do we have the right to know it or not?

No. The forum values privacy and revealing information that would potentially allow you to detect alts would not be respecting that privacy. (The same is true for the lesser information you are requesting)

[loshia]

Privacy?
........
It is very sad to hear that. What kind of privacy is that?
I do not know who is user A if he lives somwhere at the opposite site of the globe or next to my door. I do NOT wana know his name his home address his credit card number his IP how he looks like, is he married is he happy how many children does he have nothing
Same applies for user B. what I wanna know if A and B are posting from same class c. What privacy are you going to reveal? Excuse me, but I just can not get it  
BadBear?
----------
No. The forum values privacy and revealing information that would potentially allow you to detect alts would not be respecting that privacy. (The same is true for the lesser information you are requesting)
---------
Does,it mean that alts are tolerated because of your understanding of word "Privacy"?

[--Encrypted--]

it seems you didn't consider the fact that other people will use this feature for something bad, OP.
say Scammer A scammed Victim B for a lot of money. Scammer A share an IP with User C and User D who have their personal information available for everyone to see. Victim B, who lost a lot of money and not thinking right, starts to investigate User C and User D.

the above scenario can happen. and it does not only concern those users' privacy.

[loshia]

it seems you didn't consider the fact that other people will use this feature for something bad, OP.
say Scammer A scammed Victim B for a lot of money. Scammer A share an IP with User C and User D who have their personal information available for everyone to see. Victim B, who lost a lot of money and not thinking right, starts to investigate User C and User D.

the above scenario can happen. and it does not only concern those users' privacy.

Common can happen yes it can of course but what is the probability it to happen we have to ask  :   organofcorti probably. That would be extremely big double  with many many zeros In front
But the other way arround happens almost Every day.
BadBear?

[LFC_Bitcoin]

I think it'd be a great idea to try & 'name & shame' people using alts & sock puppets etc. People account farming & using multiple accounts on signature campaigns. It's all a bit unethical right?

I mean why do people even have alts? To back up their main accounts scammy ideas & actions.

[shorena]

Privacy?
........
It is very sad to hear that. What kind of privacy is that?
-snip-

The right to be let alone.

-snip-
it mean that alts are tolerated
-snip-

Yes, in fact alts allow for someone to express an unpopular opinion without risking "damage" to the main account.

[Mikestang]

You'd be hard pressed to find anywhere online that will release IP addresses of its users.

do we have the right

It's an online forum, you don't have any rights.

I wanna know if A and B are posting from same class c.

As was already pointed out to you above, knowing IPs does not tell you what you want to know, nor will any forum ever provide you with that information.

[-ck]

I don't believe it would be fair to expect people to have their location or IP automatically extractable/displayed publicly on a forum such as this. The ability to mask where or who you are is not that hard to do by any stretch, and it's of very limited usefulness as Badbear has said. Many who wouldn't go to the effort or don't know how to would have their privacy compromised while those who are most likely to be interested in malicious behaviour would be the ones to hide themselves.

As a "pipe dream ideal", while it's probably not in the software as such, what could be helpful is to allow the user themselves to choose whether they are happy for the forum to say where they're logged in from. So for example there would be an option in your profile to enable "display where I'm logging in from using geolocation information". The user would have to expressly enable this, and of course it is of limited utility only if they decide to log in via tor etc (in which case they wouldn't enable it), and the system could also say whether they're using an anonymiser service to log in. Again I think it's only fair that the user would have to enable or disable this in their profile themselves. How would this be useful? Well if the user is happy to enable it, then other forum members would be able to use that as another indirect marker of trust. Of course it's of limited utility, but then so are all other means when it comes to the internet.

[loshia]

Majority of us do think this is not right unfortunately. I am not gonna quote every one and to express my ppinion. Sorry foks but I just can not agree and that is all. Once again I want to point out that I am NOT interested in knowing Users ip. The closest idea which will do the job is what CK suggested. But I prefer it to happen automatically for every user on each post except admins and mods. WITHOUT OPTION THIS TO BE DISABLED. As minimum this should be enabled for newbies. how about it?

BADBear?

[shorena]

Majority of us do think this is not right unfortunately. I am not gonna quote every one and to express my ppinion. Sorry foks but I just can not agree and that is all. Once again I want to point out that I am NOT interested in knowing Users ip. The closest idea which will do the job is what CK suggested. But I prefer it to happen automatically for every user on each post except admins and mods. WITHOUT OPTION THIS TO BE DISABLED. As minimum this should be enabled for newbies. how about it?

BADBear?

Yes, we get it you want to violate everyones right for no gain. You want a "security simulation". You cant possible protect users privacy rights while at the same time publicly display information good enough to determine a possible shill or alt account. You are also asking for this data over a period of "only" 6 months.

Do you not see that what you are asking for is a massive intrusion of users privacy or do you just dont care?

[loshia]

Shorena,
You can read my args above. I am not going to discuss this over and over. Unfortunately you and me have a diferent understanding of word rights. Again I do not want to know nothing personal about you and anybody else. I want to know if a and b use same class c network no ip addresses nothing. You call it rights I call it "
SAME UNKNOWN LOCATION IN ANY PART OF THE CLOBE".
And finaly rights come with obligations right? Which comes first the egg or the bird?
In my home country everyone speaks about rights in general but when it comes to obligations NO ONE HAS ANY. That is how democracy works in my country. This forum  reminds me the same we all do have rights for sure without any obligations...

[sho_road_warrior]

Shorena,
You can read my args above. I am not going to discuss this over and over. Unfortunately you and me have a diferent understanding of word rights. Again I do not want to know nothing personal about you and anybody else. I want to know if a and b use same class c network no ip addresses nothing. You call it rights I call it "
SAME UNKNOWN LOCATION IN ANY PART OF THE CLOBE".
And finaly rights come with obligations right? Which comes first the egg or the bird?
In my home country everyone speaks about rights in general but when it comes to obligations NO ONE HAS ANY. That is how democracy works in my country. This forum  reminds me the same we all do have rights for sure without any obligations...

It makes no difference if you exchange every IP with a word. You still want to publish which accounts access this board from the same place which is none of your business.

Do we have an obligation to disclose our location? Why do you think so? This board is neither country nor democracy comparing your case to your state does not make it any clearer to me.

[loshia]

Then what is this board? And what rights do we have? To be anonymous use alts scam people or to be just a chicken shit as sugested above and have alts to express unpopular oppinion and to keep your primary acount clean?
To LET everybody know I am Bulgarian and I do live in Bulgaria. I do not think it is a top secret and threatens me in any way. I am wandering "how same place" translates to disclosing your location. Would you  be so kind to explain please?

[redsn0w]

Then what is this board? And what rights do we have? To be anonymous use alts scam people or to be just a chicken shit as sugested above and have alts to express unpopular oppinion and to keep your primary acount clean?
To LET everybody know I am Bulgarian and I do live in Bulgaria. I do not think it is top secret and threatens me in any way. I am wandering "how same place" translates to disclosing your location. Would you so kind to explain please?

There are some people that don't want to disclose their location and of course they have the right to do that. For the question of alternative accounts, this is how it works here.

Edit: however, you can be anonymous and be also 'honest' because anonymous doesn't mean dishonest person that wants to scam the other users.

[subSTRATA]

Then what is this board? And what rights do we have? To be anonymous use alts scam people or to be just a chicken shit as sugested above and have alts to express unpopular oppinion and to keep your primary acount clean?
To LET everybody know I am Bulgarian and I do live in Bulgaria. I do not think it is a top secret and threatens me in any way. I am wandering "how same place" translates to disclosing your location. Would you  be so kind to explain please?

you might not mind, but others might. everyone on here deserves some level of privacy, regardless of their activity on the forum.

[superpanos2]

I would like that feature.
I think it can help avoid scammers.
A middle solution would be to increase the number of people able to see the ip addresses, like those in deafault trust and not just mods and admins.

[shorena]

Then what is this board? And what rights do we have?

Its a board, you may post here as long as you follow the owners rules.

To be anonymous use alts scam people or to be just a chicken shit as sugested above and have alts to express unpopular oppinion and to keep your primary acount clean?
To LET everybody know I am Bulgarian and I do live in Bulgaria. I do not think it is a top secret and threatens me in any way. I am wandering "how same place" translates to disclosing your location. Would you  be so kind to explain please?

You want to know who is an alt of whom, right? Will this be solved if you get a list of countries (with fantasy names)? No, its not fine enough. Will this be solved if you get a list of streets names (again fantasy names) without house numbers? No, its not fine enough. The information you are seeking needs to be previse in a way that allows to identify a home. Not which home as in you know the address and can just come over, but a home in a sense that you would know if I were to invite 3 people to my house/flat/workplace/etc. and they would post here. In order to allow this precision you would need a bijective map from IP address to fantasy name representing it. With data from a period of 6 months you (or someone else) would be able to gather a lot more information about people here that I suspect most want to share.

Why do I (or anyone else) have to share this information with you? I dont.

Just because you are willing to share that information, does not mean you can force(!) anyone else to do the same. City still ok for you? Street name + number? You have nothing to hide, right? How about your full name? What about people that live in countries where using and owning bitcoin is forbidden by law? What about, say someone from Kyrgyzstan?

I would like that feature.
I think it can help avoid scammers.
A middle solution would be to increase the number of people able to see the ip addresses, like those in deafault trust and not just mods and admins.

How would it help to avoid scams? Someone that activly trying to avoid this could do so by e.g. using Tor.

[loshia]

I would like that feature.
I think it can help avoid scammers.
A middle solution would be to increase the number of people able to see the ip addresses, like those in deafault trust and not just mods and admins.

Folks,
Once again for N-th time

Nobody will see any ip adress or part of it.
As mentioned above we will see only if a and b  use "same place" to post with certain probability of course.
Thea was my initial idea. Ck sugested geo ip part which does Something same but seems more "intrusive" for most of you
The best will be a simple number like trust next to nick
Something with +1 +2 and so on
For instance +1 means that there is one more account posting from same class c network.
What about it BadBear? That seems to keep the privacy and be a good start?
My initial idea with sql query results was the fastest way without spending time implementing new features and stuff
And when we see newbie with +10 next to nick opening a new thread with a single post saying something like  I bought this and that from there and it works great all will be clear
Or have you heard about this and that advertising scams