Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.

[ldrgn]

Officers of a company are never personally liable for business losses. That is not how corporate law works. Just because this is bitcoin does not suddenly mean I am personally liable.

IANAL but don't you have to be incorporated in order to get this kind of protection?  Are all these usagi businesses registered and incorporated?  I apologize if they are but every post and website relating to everything was deleted by usagi and I have no way to find out.

On that note why isn't usagi getting a scammer tag for personally deleting every bit of information about his businesses?  I'm not even a shareholder and I'm finding it inconvenient.  I can only imagine how much his shareholders have been screwed over by his action.

[deeplink]

Theymos,

Why doe Usagi NOT have a scammer tag.  (just asking)

BCB, did you get an answer from theymos?

I am just looking for reasons to explain why usagi is still untouched by the mods, because any logical reasoning would conclude that usagi is lying and deceiving with every other sentence he writes. One reason, not saying it is true and it may be far fetched, that I could think of is if there was a business relationship between theymos and usagi. The reason it even comes to mind is because usagi and Nefario have been talking about doing business together (usagi was going to value assets on GLBSE) and theymos is also connected to Nefario in the GLBSE partnership. For all I know usagi could even be one of the unknown partners in GLBSE. If that were the case then I could at least understand why he stays untouched.

[MPOE-PR]

Do you remember 2008-2009?  That was a magical time in the real world, when thousands of people learned that their fantasy models were wrong, and things really were worth what the market was willing to pay for them.  The exception being like 7 people that were liquid, solvent, unleveraged and holders of their assets in fee simple.  Those guys got to keep valuing their stuff in whatever way they wanted to.  (You were not in this group.)  Everyone else learned that the present and future are not the same as the past.

Working on the theory that you want not just to teach Japanese but also to learn Economics, here's an exercise for you usagi:
- (for 3 points) explain the difference between liquid and solvent;
- (for 2 points) illustrate this difference with at least two relevant examples;
- (for 3 points) explain the meaning of "fee simple" with a view to both historical use as well as the holding of financial instruments;
- (for 2 points) discuss alternative title to financial instruments.

Work time 55 minutes, outside sources and references not allowed, 4 handwritten pages allowed at a maximum, 1 handwritten page accepted at a minimum.

Please post your response as attached scans or sufficiently large pictures.

[MPOE-PR]

One reason, not saying it is true and it may be far fetched, that I could think of is if there was a business relationship between theymos and usagi.

I really don't think that contention holds any water. The more likely explanation would be that the forum mods have lives outside of reading in integrum the productions of every rabbit.

[deeplink]

One reason, not saying it is true and it may be far fetched, that I could think of is if there was a business relationship between theymos and usagi.

I really don't think that contention holds any water.

That's why I put it out here. I don't really care what you think if you do not have an argument.

The more likely explanation would be that the forum mods have lives outside of reading in integrum the productions of every rabbit.

That's a good explanation too. However after pirate, GLBSE and Bitcoinica this is probably one of the biggest cancers on this forum. If, as you say, the mods have no time or interest in looking at this, shouldn't they apply for help or step back?

[MPOE-PR]

That's why I put it out here. I don't really care what you think if you do not have an argument.

Now, now, no need to get testy. Even without an argument I have the advantage of having been watching them for longer.

That's a good explanation too. However after pirate, GLBSE and Bitcoinica this is probably one of the biggest cancers on this forum.

There's a scoping issue here. Claims against pirate were in the six digit range. Claims against Bitcoinica were what, 40k BTC + hundreds of k's of USD or something like that? GLBSE screwed what, hundreds? even a thousand small time investors? It's true that it wasn't that much money, all things considered, as pretty much none of the big boys indulged, but still it affected a large if insignificant cross-section of the population.

Usagi however is bush league, there's dozens that did the same exact things he did except they had the common sense to keep quiet.

[Deprived]

I think there's another very big reason why usagi hasn't got a scammer tag.  Look at the record of who does and doesn't get tags - pretty much without exception tags are only awarded to people who don't ste up and attempt to defend themselves in the complaint thread against them.  As soon as they start writing long posts, making stuff up, referring to posts they've deleted etc it becomes a whole load of work to actually reach the truth.  Try to find an instance of someone who defended themselves as vigorously as usagi has getting a tag.  Sure - most of what it types is total garbage but it takes a lot of time and effort to actually become sure of that.

Another (and pretty valid) reason is that most of the complaints about usagi aren't being made by actual investors who lost money.  With the possible exception of Eskimo Bob - which is absolutely hilarious (have to wonder if he had a ton of fixed-rate mining bonds as well).  I can make a pretty compelling case of various cases of acting in bad faith, robbing one set of investors to bail out a different failed company etc - but as I didn't have any skin in the game the mods can just ignore it until someone who actually lost out complains.

[usagi]

I think there's another very big reason why usagi hasn't got a scammer tag.  Look at the record of who does and doesn't get tags - pretty much without exception tags are only awarded to people who don't ste up and attempt to defend themselves in the complaint thread against them.  As soon as they start writing long posts, making stuff up, referring to posts they've deleted etc it becomes a whole load of work to actually reach the truth.  Try to find an instance of someone who defended themselves as vigorously as usagi has getting a tag.  Sure - most of what it types is total garbage but it takes a lot of time and effort to actually become sure of that.

Another (and pretty valid) reason is that most of the complaints about usagi aren't being made by actual investors who lost money.  With the possible exception of Eskimo Bob - which is absolutely hilarious (have to wonder if he had a ton of fixed-rate mining bonds as well).  I can make a pretty compelling case of various cases of acting in bad faith, robbing one set of investors to bail out a different failed company etc - but as I didn't have any skin in the game the mods can just ignore it until someone who actually lost out complains.

Just leave me the fuck alone. One of many:

9. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113708.msg1346298#msg1346298
"This is also when usagi started defrauding nyan investors (which I never got around to posting about) by making interest free loans to CPA (dressed up as holding YARR shares for the books)."

No interest-free loans were ever made to CPA. YARR was bought back 2500 shares. Less than 80 remained when GLBSE shut down.

Do you see why I am upset at you? You're lying about me. Go away.

[usagi]

We have an example of a high volume posting troll being banned in Rarity ... I wonder if Usagi is nearing that territory.

It is easily observable that Usagi is not attempting to contribute in the community and visits the forum strictly to stir up shit. Similar to Rarity.
The tipping point I believe with Rarity was bringing false scammer claim up against Dank. Similarly Usagi is making baseless and malicious accusations now.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=127096.msg1349658#msg1349658

please do not spam the same message multiple times.

[BCB]

well something is not right here. 

Either give Usagi the scammer tag or lock the thread.

The relentless MOE-PR/JoelKatz debate paid off in getting PH a scammer tag.  Maybe there is relevance here??

But unless theymos is closely monitoring this, I have no idea what third parties could be keeping up with the quote upon quote of the he  said/she said.

If he's scammed please tag him.

I don't think investors should be able to request a scammer tag for making the mistake of investing with a bad business/business man. 

[usagi]

Additionally Ian attempted to work inside the terms of the contract to accelerate the normal return of funds per the contract, the same method that helped keep BMF from ever seeing a bitcent claimed against the insurance they were forced to buy.

I was wondering if anyone else had noticed that.
The same actions Usagi took with CPA and BMF are what Usagi calls me all kinds of names over.

  oh, and Usagi had an obligation to act in the best interests of BMF.

Ian, are you aware of the fact I have demonstrated in the OP (of my recent scam accusation thread against EskimoBob, Puppet and Deprived) that you:

1. Defrauded CPA by lying about your intent and financial position in order to break a contract with a no expiration clause;
2. Threatened to defame me (drag my name thru the mud) if I did not agree to your demands
3. Lie about me/slander me that I was attempting to clawback funds in response to my stance on sticking to the contract

?

Seriously dude. Just stop. I have been very tired and sick recently so I did not collect all this in one place but now that I have it's pretty obvious you deserve a scammer tag for what you did. You broke a contract, you lied about it, you attempted to blow smoke over it, and you're still bitching about it even though I paid back your shareholders as per the contract. Just stop. Go away. leave me alone.  I did not want to post this about you. I did not want to have to go through this. I did not want to have to chase you down and collect this info and post a scammer accusation on you. Why? Because I was very sick recently. I do not have the energy. This is literally killing me. It's past 2am in Japan now and I have work in the morning.

But you wouldn't fucking leave me alone. Now, if you just go away, maybe a mod will forget this thread exists and you won't get a scammer tag. I don't care. I don't have the energy anymore. I have tried, I really tried, to keep up with 5 or 6 people trolling me. But one person.. just can't. In the end, you will win, because I will not be able to keep up and badbear who hates me and has demonstrated prejudice towards me will probably give me a scammer tag.

That will be a sad day but fuck it. I just can't keep up.

[Deprived]

Look - if you're ill you should go to bed.  I'll make a deal with you - I wont make any more posts in this thread until tomorrow if you don't make any more posts about me here until then.

Then tomorrow when you're hopefully feeling better we'll finish off establishing you were wrong on the first point about me and move on to the next.  And in a few weeks we'll likely have agreed (or at least demonstrated to everyone else) that there's zero merit at all in your accusations against me - in part because you regularly reply to what you think I said, rather than to what I actually said.

[BadBear]

If, as you say, the mods have no time or interest in looking at this, shouldn't they apply for help or step back?

We have, theymos even posted a thread about it once. A couple people got all gung ho about it, but it didn't go anywhere. Turns out people don't want to spend their free time doing that. Go figure  .
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90953.0

Most of us would be more than happy to have nothing at all to do with scammer tags. It's essentially a free service provided by the forum to try to help and pretty much the only thing gotten in return is complaining, trolling, accusations (no matter which way the decision goes), drama, etc. Someone gets the tag, well clearly it's because he ripped off staff. Someone doesn't get the tag, well clearly it's because staff is in on it. I do try and weigh in on high profile stuff, but that's about it. Too much hassle and grief to do anything more.

[deeplink]

If, as you say, the mods have no time or interest in looking at this, shouldn't they apply for help or step back?

We have, theymos even posted a thread about it once. A couple people got all gung ho about it, but it didn't go anywhere. Turns out people don't want to spend their free time doing that. Go figure  .
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90953.0

Most of us would be more than happy to have nothing at all to do with scammer tags. It's essentially a free service provided by the forum to try to help and pretty much the only thing gotten in return is complaining, trolling, accusations (no matter which way the decision goes), drama, etc. Someone gets the tag, well clearly it's because he ripped off staff. Someone doesn't get the tag, well clearly it's because staff is in on it. I do try and weigh in on high profile stuff, but that's about it. Too much hassle and grief to do anything more.

Got it, thanks for the link and response.

I'll let it rest for now because I have more productive work to do and because evidence is building up that he has mental issues (either that or he is faking it very well and is in fact a masochistic drama queen). If he does have delusional disorder, I have to think about how to proceed. I started taking an interest in usagi, because he has caused me damage in the past and is impossible to reason with. Then I noticed he is doing the same to many. Apart from some pathetic scam accusation threads he created the situation is contained for now. However if usagi tries to pull off another scammy business in the future, I'm sure I'll be all over it again. I would consider paying someone who is specializing in independent scam investigations as theymos proposed in that post. We'll see what happens next.

[augustocroppo]

I'll let it rest for now because I have more productive work to do and because evidence is building up that he has mental issues (either that or he is faking it very well and is in fact a masochistic drama queen). If he does have delusional disorder, I have to think about how to proceed. I started taking an interest in usagi, because he has caused me damage in the past and is impossible to reason with. Then I noticed he is doing the same to many. Apart from some pathetic scam accusation threads he created the situation is contained for now. However if usagi tries to pull off another scammy business in the future, I'm sure I'll be all over it again. I would consider paying someone who is specializing in independent scam investigations as theymos proposed in that post. We'll see what happens next.

The only evidence which is 'building up' is that you main concern is to defame Usagi's business in this forum:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=59549

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: EskimoBob - Lied about owning YARR    on: Today at 11:42:14

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: Today at 10:53:17

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Find Trendon Shavers in person thread... [BTCST, BTS&T, pirateat40]    on: Today at 10:03:58

Economy / Speculation / Re: what the heck triggered that spike?    on: Today at 09:40:31

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Find Trendon Shavers in person thread... [BTCST, BTS&T, pirateat40]    on: Today at 09:17:01

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: EskimoBob - Lied about owning YARR    on: 21-11-2012, 18:18:44

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: MPOE-PR, EskimoBob, Puppet, Deprived. Etc. -- Fraud and Conspiracy    on: 21-11-2012, 12:03:59

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: MPOE-PR, EskimoBob, Puppet, Deprived. Etc. -- Fraud and Conspiracy    on: 21-11-2012, 11:53:28

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: MPOE-PR, EskimoBob, Puppet, Deprived. Etc. -- Fraud and Conspiracy    on: 21-11-2012, 11:48:00

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: MPOE-PR, EskimoBob, Puppet, Deprived. Etc. -- Fraud and Conspiracy    on: 21-11-2012, 11:17:07

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 21-11-2012, 09:34:27

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 21-11-2012, 08:39:25

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Nefario    on: 19-11-2012, 21:59:39

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 19-11-2012, 21:40:03

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 19-11-2012, 14:40:40

Other / Politics & Society / Re: This is your future...    on: 19-11-2012, 08:31:04

Economy / Securities / Re: GLBSE Payment Claims (Announce your payment here)    on: 19-11-2012, 06:18:53

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 19-11-2012, 06:09:05

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 19-11-2012, 06:01:28

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 19:36:42

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 17:23:46

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 17:04:36

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 16:58:24

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 16:55:54

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 16:53:41

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 16:38:51

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 16:17:22

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 18-11-2012, 15:44:30

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 16-11-2012, 10:57:56

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 16-11-2012, 10:46:19

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 16-11-2012, 10:42:02

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 16-11-2012, 10:25:09

Economy / Securities / Re: kongzi.ca going live -- investment/presales opportunities    on: 16-11-2012, 10:06:33

Economy / Currency exchange / Re: Sign up to iknow.jp for me (~$60) for 7+ bitcoins    on: 16-11-2012, 10:00:08

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 15-11-2012, 23:42:37

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 15-11-2012, 23:37:25

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: tmac667 needs a scammer tag!    on: 15-11-2012, 17:29:58

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.    on: 15-11-2012, 16:36:45

Other / Politics & Society / Re: Quicker you realize that someone is smarter than you, the smarter you are    on: 15-11-2012, 15:47:59

Economy / Scam Accusations / Re: tmac667 needs a scammer tag!

Do you remember this?

Legitimate is not necessary, as long as the rest, with which I absolutely agree, is being honored.

I reject recent actions (or the lack thereof) and decisions of some operators on this forum. They are too out of whack with my beliefs and due to this I no longer want to be advocating support of this forum. In that light I have decided to ask for my Donator tag to be removed.

People are free to have their own opinion and act according to them. I appreciate that, I am very open and enjoy reading other opinions. But I am feeling very uneasy when advocating support for people or an operation when several lines have been crossed in respect to my own opinions.

I have already openly considered asking for my Donator tag to be removed during the begins of the GLBSE disaster. This thread has made clear to me that this is no longer only a consideration.

Theymos, please respect my wish and remove my Donator status

Keep the money I donated and please use it to compensate customers of GLBSE.

PM to Theymos sent

Who do you think you fool with this hypocritical drama?

[Bitcoin Oz]

If, as you say, the mods have no time or interest in looking at this, shouldn't they apply for help or step back?

We have, theymos even posted a thread about it once. A couple people got all gung ho about it, but it didn't go anywhere. Turns out people don't want to spend their free time doing that. Go figure  .
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=90953.0

Most of us would be more than happy to have nothing at all to do with scammer tags. It's essentially a free service provided by the forum to try to help and pretty much the only thing gotten in return is complaining, trolling, accusations (no matter which way the decision goes), drama, etc. Someone gets the tag, well clearly it's because he ripped off staff. Someone doesn't get the tag, well clearly it's because staff is in on it. I do try and weigh in on high profile stuff, but that's about it. Too much hassle and grief to do anything more.

Scammer tags are increasingly meaningless.

[BCB]

Right now it is all we've got.

At least until bitcoin businesses and bitcoin investor learn to:

1. Make better decisions
2. Take responsibility for those decisions.

[usagi]

Right now it is all we've got.

At least until bitcoin businesses and bitcoin investor learn to:

1. Make better decisions
2. Take responsibility for those decisions.

You're absolutely right. However, the decision to invest in these products was not mine (from that standpoint). I created niche products organized by risk, so that investors could take the risk they were going to take anyways more cheaply than before. I had low risk and high risk products. In fact one contract read akin to "Investments will be chosen solely based on return, without regard for risk".

This wasn't like Goldman Sachs where I told people that the issues were pure gold and they were really dogshit. I told people over and over and over not to invest entirely in high risk products. I told people to invest in a balanced mix. I told people at quite a few points that NYAN itself had reduced it's exposure from NYAN.C for example. If anything, I had advised people not to buy security X. There was absolutely no financial motive for me to sell crap. I would have made the same money if they bought .A, .B or .C. In fact, I would have made more money selling low risk products because they were better long term investments and it would have given the companies a better rep. So there was no motive for me to defraud people, and there was demonstrably no decision on my part to do so. All I was doing was allowing people to buy and sell what they would have done anyways. For example Mining, with BMF. There was a large demand for a pure mining market average. In short I saw a market and I took it. It wasn't even a shady or immoral market (mining for example). That's just how it was back then.

If you actually look around at all the people and businesses that were doing things similar to what I was doing...

1. I am in the 5% remaining who is still here and hasn't ran for the hills after getting a scammer tag.
2. I actually did a good job at what I was doing, lots of good feedback from actual customers. All of my companies made sense, and still do. There's still actually a market for stuff like what I was doing. The problem is that GLBSE shut down.
3. I am in the 1% who is still trying to run a business and make the bitcoin community a better place.

None of this means I was a scamer. In fact it points out quite clearly that I am not.

Another interesting point to make is regarding the recent, ahem, "doxing" if you will. So now, people have discovered that I have been using the same handle on the intravebs for the better part of 20 years. As a result of this, I am an anonymous lying scammer.

Wat

Doesn't the fact that I have been around and am well-respected in various communities, and have used the same name this whole time pretty much mean the exact opposite? I won the Canadian Go Championship in 2000 (or was that 2001, long time ago). I created the ASR. I wrote several books to help people. All of which have received praise. WRT martial arts I was invited to join several private MA forums like M.S's Neijia forum. The fact that rec.martial-arts was full of trolls and people are using that against me is a friggen joke. A song was written about me? LOL no shit, songs were written about EVERYONE. Even I wrote friggen songs about people. Hot shit the trolls here are STUPID. By pointing out who I am, they actually invalidated the very possibility of me being a troll. After that, you will notice the tide viciously turned against people like EskimoBob and deprived. Thank god too, I was getting sick of those trolls.

[Deprived]

After that, you will notice the tide viciously turned against people like EskimoBob and deprived. Thank god too, I was getting sick of those trolls.

Where did the tide "viciously turn against" me?  Must have missed that.  Or did all the people who "viciously turned" on me delete their posts before I even noticed them?

[usagi]

After that, you will notice the tide viciously turned against people like EskimoBob and deprived. Thank god too, I was getting sick of those trolls.

Where did the tide "viciously turn against" me?  Must have missed that.  Or did all the people who "viciously turned" on me delete their posts before I even noticed them?

*tumbleweeds*