Usagi: falsifying NAVs, manipulating share prices and misleading investors.

[BCB]

Does anyone else find it highly unusual that none of usagi's shareholders have bothered to weigh in here?

[KWH]

Does anyone else find it highly unusual that none of usagi's shareholders have bothered to weigh in here?

Very odd, indeed.

[stochastic]

Does anyone else find it highly unusual that none of usagi's shareholders have bothered to weigh in here?

I assume most people, like me, find the scammer forum pretty ridiculous.  Only low level scammers get a tag and then there are countless accusations against some other people, usually to do with securities, that claim misapropriation of funds.  Instead the inevestor should have looked hard at their investment decisions.  Business failure due to incompetence or bad decisions do not, in my opinion, due to constitute a scammer tag.  Many people will have a failure, but that does not make them a scammer.  In the real world, people are protected by limited liability agreements.  If there is no agreement in place specifying what kind of liability then that was a bad investment decision and just goes to show the though the manager of the investment put into when they created their investment.  If they knew what they were doing they would have covered all their risks before opening the business.

I bet there would be a lot less pointless posts in the scammer forum if there was a requirement for the accuser to pay a moderator 10 bitcoins for a scamming accusation.  That accuser can be given back their 10 bitcoins if the mediator determines a scammer tag is warrented or bot the accuser and the accused come to a mutually agreed resolution.  If there is not enough evidence a scam took place then the accuser loses their 10 bitcoin deposit.

There is a reason why people in real life get to face their accusers, judged by a jury of their peers, and the prosecution has to pay heavy filing and court fees to initiate a suit.  This is because anyone can make false or exaggerated claims without proof.

[usagi]

Usgai

Why is it that you can sperg pages and pages of useless nonsense but you can not answer a simple question?  

Try to stay focused and stop insulting me. Of the three charges in this thread:

1. falsifying NAVs,
2. manipulating share prices (and)
3. misleading investors

You have admitted that #3, misleading investors, was an unjustified charge in at least one case. I will shortly be re-examining your locked thread to determine if there is any additional evidence that I have misled investors. If not I'll flip a coin and move on to one of the other two.

The goal here is to get this thread resolved by a moderator. Theymos has said that he will not close this thread unless there is evidence I have not scammed. Both you and I and others now agree #3 is a false claim. Therefore in order to get this thread closed in my favor I only have to clear up the first two charges. This seems to be the fastest and easiest way to resolve your complaints. Once this thread is closed we can let it die and reduce the number of threads against me. Then we can move on and continue to deal with the evidence people have sent you.

Thank you for agreeing to be a central clearing house for all complaints against me.

[usagi]

Vampire part of your going through BCB is that the community seems to have agreed he will be the arbiter. It's probably in your best interest now to stop making wild accusations, and give the evidence you have to BCB.

I will not have time or energy to respond to 5 different people anymore. Go through him... just a thought.

If you accept that BCB's decision is binding I'll stop making posts.

Hi and thanks for extending that to me. While it is not my decision to say whether or not BCB's decision is binding, I have agreed to respond to all of the evidence he has posted. One of the primary complaints is that there is too much spam in the threads against me. As a result BCB has created a locked thread containing all accusations and all evidence against me. I strongly suggest you use this to your advantage so that this can be resolved once and for all.

One thing I would very much like you to state is what you think I need to do to resolve your complaint. I would agree to a fair fine or penalty such as any or all of:

a) (for example) paying 100 btc to BMF shareholders as per the BMF/CPA insurance contract
b) cancelling or donating any number (but not all) of my personal shares
c) cancelling my management shares

The key here is that you would need to show damages. I am just referencing the BMF/CPA contract as an example because it states a number (100 bitcoins). Anyway I hope you can see that all I really want to do is resolve this one way or another. Unless you are interested in waging an endless war against me, I think you should consider my offer to close the complaints that way. It would be:

• fast
• simple
• easy
• no sperging required
• no spammy threads

If BCB agrees it's a valid way of closing his scam accusation, then yes, I will agree to it.

[BCB]

Stochastic

Good points.

[BCB]

Usagi

WHY is it so hard for you to answer a simple question unless you are hiding something and are attempting to continue to perpetuate your duplicity.

In what country are you located?

[Deprived]

Usgai

Why is it that you can sperg pages and pages of useless nonsense but you can not answer a simple question?  

Try to stay focused and stop insulting me. Of the three charges in this thread:

1. falsifying NAVs,
2. manipulating share prices (and)
3. misleading investors

You have admitted that #3, misleading investors, was an unjustified charge in at least one case.

...

Both you and I and others now agree #3 is a false claim.

How does agreeing the accusation was unjustified in ONE case suddenly mean ALL such claims are unjustified?  If it was that easy then anyone could prove they were innocent by having someone make an unjust accusation against them, disproving that then saying it proved their innocence on everything.  This sort of non-logic is one of the main reasons why this saga never ends - you jump from a conclusion on a specific to a conlusion on a generality in total defiance of logic and common-sense and expect people to swallow it.

You misled investors when you told them BMF was indemnified against capital loss by CPA.  You'd said yourself just recently that the contract (with acceleration) had no material value and that even IF there was no acceleration it wouldn't indemnify BMF (amusingly I don't agree with this - but will accept your word on it for the purpose this specific allegation).  How is telling them something which isn't true (according to you) anything other than misleading?  And where did BCB agree that charge had no merit?

I agree that SOME of the accusations against you are unjustified and that others wouldn't deserve a scammer tag even if proven (as even if true they only amount to simple error and/or incompetence).  The problem anyone investigating has is working out which claims have no merit and which need further examination.  Which isn't helped when you usually focus on the unjustified ones then claim that somehow proves you're innocent on the others - and then we're back to square one except now you continue to insist your innocence has been proven on things that were never even discussed.

[vampire]

Hi and thanks for extending that to me. While it is not my decision to say whether or not BCB's decision is binding, I have agreed to respond to all of the evidence he has posted. One of the primary complaints is that there is too much spam in the threads against me. As a result BCB has created a locked thread containing all accusations and all evidence against me. I strongly suggest you use this to your advantage so that this can be resolved once and for all.

One thing I would very much like you to state is what you think I need to do to resolve your complaint. I would agree to a fair fine or penalty such as any or all of:

a) (for example) paying 100 btc to BMF shareholders as per the BMF/CPA insurance contract
b) cancelling or donating any number (but not all) of my personal shares
c) cancelling my management shares

The key here is that you would need to show damages. I am just referencing the BMF/CPA contract as an example because it states a number (100 bitcoins). Anyway I hope you can see that all I really want to do is resolve this one way or another. Unless you are interested in waging an endless war against me, I think you should consider my offer to close the complaints that way. It would be:

• fast
• simple
• easy
• no sperging required
• no spammy threads

If BCB agrees it's a valid way of closing his scam accusation, then yes, I will agree to it.

I am quoting this, so I can read this later on in the detail.

[BCB]

Update:  simple question for usagi.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133823.0

[Deprived]

Does anyone else find it highly unusual that none of usagi's shareholders have bothered to weigh in here?

Well they can't - as usagi has their assets.  They're in the unfortunate position where they daren't criticise in case usagi runs off with whatever's left of their investment.  That doesn't. of course, explain why any shareholders who believe usagi did a great job aren't posting.  Obviously they'll be flattering in emails to usagi - they saw the way usagi threatened to not return EskimoBo's shares after he'd criticised usagi.

When someone who seems unstable has your money you CAN'T go criticising them.

Have to say the timing of usagi deciding to revive this thread is unfortunate - I'd have preferred it to stay dormant until usagi had paid out to investors: so there was no longer any (unstated) threat preventing investors from speaking up.

[Deprived]

Usagi

Could you please confirm that you live in Japan.  

Usagi doesn't live in Japan - he just likes to claim to be a Japanese female.  He's in Republic of China (Taiwan).

Is that in the same time zone as JST?

Taiwan's an hour behind Japan/South Korea.

[usagi]

Usagi

WHY is it so hard for you to answer a simple question unless you are hiding something and are attempting to continue to perpetuate your duplicity.

In what country are you located?

Let me save you the trouble. I already told you I will respond to each one of your accusations in due course. So you're going to have to wait. I'm not going to try to simultaneously respond to 8 or 9 different allegations at once, so relax.

The only side discussion worth having is whether or not you'd accept a settlement in any of the accusations you've shown. It's important whether or not you would accept that as you have agreed to represent all the complaints here. This means that anyone who sent you evidence has agreed that you will make a final decision. If you are willing to arbitrate this and end it quickly and fairly, that may be one option. It's been mentioned a few times now so please comment on it.

In fact I might even wait until you've responded to repentance's and my settlement idea before moving to the next case. I'm feeling a little tired tonight. I just got home.

[usagi]

You have admitted that #3, misleading investors, was an unjustified charge in at least one case.

How does agreeing the accusation was unjustified in ONE case suddenly mean ALL such claims are unjustified?
[/quote]

The words "in at least one case" means there exist other cases where he did not.

Relax.

You misled investors when you told them BMF was indemnified against capital loss by CPA.

Look, if you're not going to agree to go through BCB I won't deal with him. You have a golden opportunity here to present all your evidence to one person, in one place, and then I will make a response, and BCB will make a judgement. Kill the spam. I suggest you use BCB. As the community including you seems to have agreed to use him by presenting evidence to him, I suggest you keep the spam down and let him do his job.

I agree that SOME of the accusations against you are unjustified and that others wouldn't deserve a scammer tag even if proven (as even if true they only amount to simple error and/or incompetence). 

Thank you but it's okay. We will deal with it all, in one place, over time.

Please just agree that we'll do this thru BCB. Present your evidence to him and leave me alone. I need to go wind down my companies tonight and I am tired.

[usagi]

Update:  simple question for usagi.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133823.0

I've told you several times I will deal with the evidence you have posted in due course and over time. I'm not going to allow you to control the discussion on that level, where you post accusation after accusation and demand a response or an admission. You have agreed to collect evidence, and even if you feel it is your job to collect evidence against me I feel you are more than welcome to do so. Just post whatever evidence you have against me in your locked thread and I will make a single response in a single place, thus avoiding spam, and working through this mess quickly, cleanly, once and for all.

[deeplink]

Usagi

WHY is it so hard for you to answer a simple question unless you are hiding something and are attempting to continue to perpetuate your duplicity.

In what country are you located?

Let me save you the trouble. I already told you I will respond to each one of your accusations in due course. So you're going to have to wait. I'm not going to try to simultaneously respond to 8 or 9 different allegations at once, so relax.

The only side discussion worth having is whether or not you'd accept a settlement in any of the accusations you've shown. It's important whether or not you would accept that as you have agreed to represent all the complaints here. This means that anyone who sent you evidence has agreed that you will make a final decision. If you are willing to arbitrate this and end it quickly and fairly, that may be one option. It's been mentioned a few times now so please comment on it.

In fact I might even wait until you've responded to repentance's and my settlement idea before moving to the next case. I'm feeling a little tired tonight. I just got home.

Note what is going on. Usagi using his stall and obstruction technique again.

Answering a simple question would have taken one word. Instead he decides to type another long text of nonsense to stall, obstruct and obfuscate the investigation.

Then fluently progresses to appeal to emotion.

Textbook stuff, but well played. Congratulations usagi and by the way, happy new year, wherever you are!

[Deprived]

There is a reason why people in real life get to face their accusers, judged by a jury of their peers, and the prosecution has to pay heavy filing and court fees to initiate a suit.  This is because anyone can make false or exaggerated claims without proof.

In response to the quoted paragraph there's a reason why people in real life have to jump through a bunch of hoops to manage investment funds: it's to stop incompetents losing the money of investors they sucked in with false claims of competence.

If people don't want to demonstrate competence BEFORE asking for loads of money then it's unreasonable to impose an assumption of competence when there's complaints.  IF competence had been proven in advance then yeah - it would be fair to ask for a fee from those registering complaints.  But when competence hasn't ever been demonstrated then there should be no charge for asserting incompetence.

And a fee for accusing of scamming means only those at risk of losing funds will usually complain.  That's bad on two counts:

1.  Those who can most clearly see the flaws in something (e.g. that Nyan never defined in advance fixed ratios for A/B/C so was impossible to determine risk/reward for) will NOT be investors - it'll be those who didn't spot the problems themself.
2.  Investors often don't want to risk complaining themselves - for fear they'll piss off the asset issuer who will then deliberately screw them over.

From my perspective when I raise issues with an ingoing business it's usually (but not always) NOT to protect existing investors - they're already at the mercy of the operator.  It's to ensure potential future investors are aware of issues they need to consider before parting with their funds.

Do also be aware that I raised my concerns about usagi in threads for the various businesses - NOT in scammers forum.  I only raised them here after usagi repeatedly told me to do so.

EDIT: To add there's also another huge difference between RL and here.  When you pay all the fees etc to bring a case in RL the courts can actually order and (to an extent) enforce repayment/compensation.  All they can give here is a tag.

[repentance]

BCB's recent post in the other thread is probably relevant here as he's now officially called for theymos to give usagi a scammer tag.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=133823.msg1430313#msg1430313

[Deprived]

Please just agree that we'll do this thru BCB. Present your evidence to him and leave me alone. I need to go wind down my companies tonight and I am tired.

Are you saying you'll accept BCB's decision on this?

If not, then it's pretty pointless everyone else doing so: as we risk him saying "usagi's innocent" whilst if he says "usagi's guilty" you'll promptly accuse him of bias and making the wrong decision and want someone else to deal with it.

[usagi]

Please just agree that we'll do this thru BCB. Present your evidence to him and leave me alone. I need to go wind down my companies tonight and I am tired.

Are you saying you'll accept BCB's decision on this?

BCB is being a jerk to me. He's insulting me and passing judgement before posting evidence, he's stated he isn't reading my posts anyway, and he seems unwilling to actually seek a resolution other than I'm a scammer.

If BCB is only going to do work such that I get a scammer tag then what's the point of dealing with him? he's not interested in me making peace with my shareholders; he just wants to do me in. So he has shown his true colors now. So no I will not agree with his decision. The problem is that BCB has become another soapbox for "usagi therefore scammer". Here are two things BCB can do to help resolve this:

1. BCB can agree that we will deal with one thing at a time.

2. BCB can agree that it's possible we can resolve this with a settlement paid to shareholders.

If neither of the above are true, then BCB's original intent of collecting the evidence in one place and allowing a final response seems to have fallen by the wayside.

And if I can't do this with BCB my last option is to make a settlement directly with shareholders. See, my companies are in a close-down process. If I offer a settlement to shareholders, regardless of any wrongdoing and they take it, then that's that. So this is how we are going to resolve this: step by step and/or via settlement, or I will cut BCB out of the picture and deal directly with my shareholders. I guarantee you that if I have a settlement from my shareholders in hand I will never, ever get a scammer tag. So maybe I should just go and do that anyways, since I have a full list from nefario?

I am not, I repeat not, going to sit here for the next six months of my life while BCB's locked thread grows to 100 posts and try to answer every tiny little stinking question he has. I need to close down my companies and get on with my life. You and BCB either choose to deal with the evidence in the locked thread, or you choose not to try to work towards a resolution either way. I've shown my willingness to deal here:

kongzi.ca/BCB

and here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=113708.msg1429794#msg1429794

Now it's BCB's turn. Since he's said he's ignoring my posts, I suggest you contact him and mention I have offered a chance to settle. It would save everyone a hell of a lot of time. I'm just not interested in the whole endless war thing.