21 millions bitcoiners

[johnyj]

There are many abolished paper currencies, they all have limited number, but only worth something in the eyes of currency collectors. If a currency is not in circulation, then its demand and value will be very limited

A large portion of this forum is blindly beliving that the 21 000 000 cap is going to make everybody want to use bitcoins. It has no effect on the mainstream user if there is a cap or not. The physiological effect of owning a bitcoin today wont have any effect on the masses. Not more than having a rare stamp is affecting the masses as it is only other stamp collectors who cares.

The things that make a good currency has nothing to do with how many or what medium they are in. What matters is as follows. Are it trustet so you can buy stuff, can you earn it doing normal jobs, are everyone else around you using it and finally is it legal so you dont risk anything by using it. 99.9% of the worlds population has no desire to use a currency just because of it anonymity. They want something usefull.

If people wanted a currency with limited supply there are a lot of options and many are easier to adapt than bitcoins who are being hoarded by geeks and other oddballs. Either they adopt a crypto who is spread evenly so everyone could get in on it or they could go for low inflation systems. Low inflation has been tested in Japan, and the sharia laws forbid interest on loans....

The 21 million cap is an agreement. Bitcoiners believe that if everyone voluntarily use a money that have hard limit in supply, they can protect themselves from inflation and make this money most trustworthy and valuable on the planet

The question is, how many people purchase bitcoin because of its long term anti-inflation property? In a period of hyperinflation, bitcoin adoption will gain traction quickly, but currently not so much

Regarding the early adopter problem, every useful and scarce resource have this limitation: Early adopters sitting on their land, gold, oil field, forest, etc... and watching their assets rise in value, while the latest adopters can barely purchase a little with their petty income. People could also start to collect any scarce resources that no one have noticed, but that does not guarantee they will become useful. Bitcoin has real utility in certain area, that gives it value, but not so many people really realize the benefit until they start to use it. Speculation does not increase its value, increase the real usage is the key. Imagine that you can always spend bitcoin when you are traveling abroad, what kind of convenience that will be

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[futureofbitcoin]

No, because a large percentage will sell off at $1k, then $5K, then $10K etc.   Early adopters will become early sellers, there will only be a select few that will have the gonads and patience to hold even when the price skyrockets.

Wrong. Faulty generalization is not a indicator or what is going to happen. People seriously need to rethink why they are involved with Bitcoin. Essentially what should be done once the price takes off (which will probably be followed by adoption) is to spend Bitcoin itself. That's what it was designed for.
People need to stop being greedy and converting. If I ever plan on buying X, I will buy it using Bitcoin.

probably much less than 1, i would say from 500 the selling pressure will increase a lot, and will be exponential from 1k, which is a good thing, less weak hands more strong price

Possibly, but I doubt that there will be much pressure at $500. If you remember the huge amount of threads of people complaining that they are at a loss (when the price started to go down). I'm expecting selling pressure to exponentially increase above $1k. However, that price point again might be a indicator and we might take off even further.
OP there will never be enough Bitcoins for 21 million people to own 1. You do have to factor in the estimated 1M that satoshi has, a various losses over time.

Your definition of "greedy" needs a little work. People don't somehow turn greedy when they convert bitcoins to fiat, but not so if they keep it in bitcoins.

It's really quite simple. At the current time, fiat is accepted at a lot more places, and much more usable than bitcoin in most of the world. I can go outside and buy a pizza anywhere I want, but if I had to use bitcoin, i would be limited to very few choices, and maybe those places simply don't make good pizza.

So that's why I will use fiat when I make purchases. If in the future bitcoin becomes extremely mainstream and accepted virtually anywhere, at that time there is no need to convert to fiat except to spread out the risk. But converting/not converting has nothing to do with greed. The only real reason to buy bitcoins now is in anticipation of a rise in value. It's not about converting to fiat, it's about having higher purchasing power, and comparing it to USD is the simplest way to evaluate the purchasing power.

[LiteCoinGuy]

No, because a large percentage will sell off at $1k, then $5K, then $10K etc.   Early adopters will become early sellers, there will only be a select few that will have the gonads and patience to hold even when the price skyrockets.

Wrong. Faulty generalization is not a indicator or what is going to happen. People seriously need to rethink why they are involved with Bitcoin. Essentially what should be done once the price takes off (which will probably be followed by adoption) is to spend Bitcoin itself. That's what it was designed for.
People need to stop being greedy and converting. If I ever plan on buying X, I will buy it using Bitcoin.

probably much less than 1, i would say from 500 the selling pressure will increase a lot, and will be exponential from 1k, which is a good thing, less weak hands more strong price

Possibly, but I doubt that there will be much pressure at $500. If you remember the huge amount of threads of people complaining that they are at a loss (when the price started to go down). I'm expecting selling pressure to exponentially increase above $1k. However, that price point again might be a indicator and we might take off even further.
OP there will never be enough Bitcoins for 21 million people to own 1. You do have to factor in the estimated 1M that satoshi has, a various losses over time.

Your definition of "greedy" needs a little work. People don't somehow turn greedy when they convert bitcoins to fiat, but not so if they keep it in bitcoins.

It's really quite simple. At the current time, fiat is accepted at a lot more places, and much more usable than bitcoin in most of the world. I can go outside and buy a pizza anywhere I want, but if I had to use bitcoin, i would be limited to very few choices, and maybe those places simply don't make good pizza.

So that's why I will use fiat when I make purchases. If in the future bitcoin becomes extremely mainstream and accepted virtually anywhere, at that time there is no need to convert to fiat except to spread out the risk. But converting/not converting has nothing to do with greed. The only real reason to buy bitcoins now is in anticipation of a rise in value. It's not about converting to fiat, it's about having higher purchasing power, and comparing it to USD is the simplest way to evaluate the purchasing power.

there are more reasons:

bitcoin is good for you:

-if you dont like banks
-if you dont like fiat money
-if you dont like debt
-if you want control over your money
-if you like tech
-if you are a geek
-if you want to be a part of a movement

[sana9821]

if we come back to guesses i think that the price will be about 5 thousand dollars each, also there will surely be much more countries who will accept it as a national currency

[juju]

What will be the value of one Bitcoin when the number of users (people that will want to use Bitcoin) will hit 21 millions?

At this point, if each user wanted to have 1 Bitcoin, will have to pay a certain number of $ or € or Y, whatever. I'm going with $ just because it's the most used around the world.

How many $ do you think that person, the n. 21 millionth, who wants to buy 1 BTC will have to pay to obtain it?

My wild guess is: 160000 $.

I wrote a post about this one day: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=998854.0 . One day I started a blog and turned it into a post on it:

http://www.unsignedtx.com/available-bitcoin-user-ratio/

[Hopalong]

There are many abolished paper currencies, they all have limited number, but only worth something in the eyes of currency collectors. If a currency is not in circulation, then its demand and value will be very limited

A large portion of this forum is blindly beliving that the 21 000 000 cap is going to make everybody want to use bitcoins. It has no effect on the mainstream user if there is a cap or not. The physiological effect of owning a bitcoin today wont have any effect on the masses. Not more than having a rare stamp is affecting the masses as it is only other stamp collectors who cares.

The things that make a good currency has nothing to do with how many or what medium they are in. What matters is as follows. Are it trustet so you can buy stuff, can you earn it doing normal jobs, are everyone else around you using it and finally is it legal so you dont risk anything by using it. 99.9% of the worlds population has no desire to use a currency just because of it anonymity. They want something usefull.

If people wanted a currency with limited supply there are a lot of options and many are easier to adapt than bitcoins who are being hoarded by geeks and other oddballs. Either they adopt a crypto who is spread evenly so everyone could get in on it or they could go for low inflation systems. Low inflation has been tested in Japan, and the sharia laws forbid interest on loans....

The question is, how many people purchase bitcoin because of its long term anti-inflation property? In a period of hyperinflation, bitcoin adoption will gain traction quickly, but currently not so much

In the case of hyperinflation everyone would look for anything to buy that hold value but who would sell their bitcoin for a hyperinflating fiat? As i see it there is no way to get the general public interested in bitcoin as long as the fiat they hold is good and no way to get bitcoin if their fiat is bad.

So how do you get this mass adaption of bitcoin?

Not by merchant who only take bitcoin and convert it to fiat right away.

Not by bitcoin holders who use debit cards to shop where the merchants never see bitcoin.

Not by the hodlers who only thinks someone else is going to make their bitcoins valuable.

Not by the traders who make the price go wild all the time.

Then we are down to faucet and porn. Not the greatest base for new and revolutionary economy is it?

[GODLIKE]

I think there's a difference between "greedy" and "somebody that is trying to earn something".
I only have less than 1 BTC and I am without a job. Would you call that greed?

I would call that irrelevant. You essentially earn money when the price of Bitcoin rises. Converting to fiat is not necessary. With the value of your investment now increased (assuming Bitcoin price sees a uptrend) you can actually spend it to get more stuff that before.
I for one, do not have any plans to convert. I rather have plans to buy things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that nobody should convert in any case.

Greed is usually very obvious (view the speculation section). Anyhow, this might already be a bit off topic.

Might be off topic, but I don't like to be called greedy when I own nearly nothing 

https://www.google.it/search?q=greedy&oq=greedy&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1079j1j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8

well greedy aren't only those that own many coins, but are also those that are here for the money only and not for the technology, if you're here for necessity you might be in between, i mean no one can guarantee that when you will be wealthy again you will not want to earn more...

But everything grants me that people with many BTC over here and not spending them are more greedy than me, whatever motivations you want to put in.
So please stop this useless polemics. You can't say poor people are greedy when they try to have decent life.
From decent life up, you may call greedy, below, not. And that's it. BY DEFINITION as the link clearly shows.

[GODLIKE]

What will be the value of one Bitcoin when the number of users (people that will want to use Bitcoin) will hit 21 millions?

At this point, if each user wanted to have 1 Bitcoin, will have to pay a certain number of $ or € or Y, whatever. I'm going with $ just because it's the most used around the world.

How many $ do you think that person, the n. 21 millionth, who wants to buy 1 BTC will have to pay to obtain it?

My wild guess is: 160000 $.

I wrote a post about this one day: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=998854.0 . One day I started a blog and turned it into a post on it:

http://www.unsignedtx.com/available-bitcoin-user-ratio/

Reading

[Pab]

 Hi your 5 cents nightmere back
Look a general valuation guide posted on Reddit.Due that guide btc price is accurate,take a read ,maybe it will help some of you to estimate btc  price,maybe some altcoins also

https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoMarkets/comments/3f3pey/a_general_valuation_guide/

I will come back after 40 days,and will post you link to newcoming great innovation in digital currencys,99% will like to try thatsystem,becouse weall want to make money and have better life
If anybody want to review  that sooner  pm me
Reagards
P

[Lauda]

Your definition of "greedy" needs a little work. People don't somehow turn greedy when they convert bitcoins to fiat, but not so if they keep it in bitcoins.
-snip-
So that's why I will use fiat when I make purchases. If in the future bitcoin becomes extremely mainstream and accepted virtually anywhere, at that time there is no need to convert to fiat except to spread out the risk. But converting/not converting has nothing to do with greed. The only real reason to buy bitcoins now is in anticipation of a rise in value. It's not about converting to fiat, it's about having higher purchasing power, and comparing it to USD is the simplest way to evaluate the purchasing power.

Of course it does, luckily I'm one of the few willing to admit such things. Actually LiteCoinGuy pretty much made your point irrelevant.

-snip-
bitcoin is good for you:
-if you dont like banks
-if you dont like fiat money
-if you dont like debt
-if you want control over your money
-if you like tech
-if you are a geek
-if you want to be a part of a movement

Okay then let us see. This is something that I've been trying to tell people when they spam nonsense and obsess with speculating. The price of Bitcoin does not matter, Bitcoin will work, be it at $300, be it at $3.
Basically one of the fundamental ideas of Bitcoin was to enable you to get out of the current system (money and state separation). Aside from paying bills (utilities, power, water, etc.) it is pretty much possible.
If you are really into Bitcoin, you would not be caring about any limitations and would be patient. Besides, you do not have to use it for small things such as coffee, pizza, etc. now. You can pretty much buy anything online using Bitcoin in 2015.
Another thing is that, you could talk to the manager/owner of the place that you like and suggest them to start accepting Bitcoin. The place has nothing to lose if they use Bitpay.

[Herbert2020]

if the number of users increase it means the increase in demand which will result in price increase and also when the bitcoin per person becomes low (21 mil bitcoin and 21 mil person using) then it becomes more valuable than what it normally would be

[futureofbitcoin]

Of course it does, luckily I'm one of the few willing to admit such things. Actually LiteCoinGuy pretty much made your point irrelevant.

-snip-
bitcoin is good for you:
-if you dont like banks
-if you dont like fiat money
-if you dont like debt
-if you want control over your money
-if you like tech
-if you are a geek
-if you want to be a part of a movement

Okay then let us see. This is something that I've been trying to tell people when they spam nonsense and obsess with speculating. The price of Bitcoin does not matter, Bitcoin will work, be it at $300, be it at $3.
Basically one of the fundamental ideas of Bitcoin was to enable you to get out of the current system (money and state separation). Aside from paying bills (utilities, power, water, etc.) it is pretty much possible.
If you are really into Bitcoin, you would not be caring about any limitations and would be patient. Besides, you do not have to use it for small things such as coffee, pizza, etc. now. You can pretty much buy anything online using Bitcoin in 2015.
Another thing is that, you could talk to the manager/owner of the place that you like and suggest them to start accepting Bitcoin. The place has nothing to lose if they use Bitpay.

Uh, no it doesn't. My point was that your way of defining greedy doesn't make sense. It has nothing to do with what LCG is saying.

That said, to imply that any of those reasons above is more "noble" or "righteous" or in any other way "better" than hoping to invest in bitcoin for a financial gain is completely silly. So what if we want a financial gain? What is wrong with that?

There are many people in the world who are not well off financially. They need all the money they can get, to LIVE. They can't afford luxury items like a new laptop every 6 months (or even every 3 years). There is very little they can afford after food, shelter and clothing. So what can they buy with bitcoins? Basically nothing.

Is it wrong then, for these people to want to improve their financial situation by making a bet on bitcoin increasing its price?

Also, we live in the real world, not a theoretical one. Bitcoin will NOT WORK at $3, because by that time very few people will accept it.


Anyway, there is absolutely nothing wrong with speculating about bitcoin. Without speculators, bitcoin will die, period. The number of true believers of bitcoin as a currency AND hates fiat/banks etc is not that many.