jamesg (OP)
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September 30, 2012, 09:58:22 PM |
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Tom said exactly in the above comment "[the 27Gh/s device] uses less electricity than the ModMiner Quad", so it is pretty clear to me that it means less than 40Watt. Hence 675 Mhash/Joule, or 1.48 J/Ghash.
Now if you wanted to be pointy, one could say that Tom did not promise the 54Gh/s device would have the same efficiency as the 27Gh/s one...
I would like to try and make sure that I am not putting specs down that the manufacturers have not released. While you are quoting him, he could have meant that statement in multitude of ways. For instance, did he mean total power consumption or Mh/s per watt?
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Stephen Gornick
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September 30, 2012, 11:01:30 PM |
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One of the biggest costs in running mining equipment is going to be power consumption. A 1,500W BFL Mini Rig SC costs $5.40 per day using the U.S. average residential rate of electricity around $0.15 per kWh. So that is under $2K USD per year in electricity. For an investment of $30K, $2K going to electricity isn't a particularly huge issue, though definitely operating one where electricity costs are $0.03 per kWh (like it is near Hydro electric generation) is going to be more profitable than running it where electricity costs are above average. This compares to GPUs whose capital costs were low compared to the cost of the electricity to run them. For comparison, a $1,100 GPU rig consuming 700W has electrical costs of $2.52 (using U.S. residential average of $0.15 per kWh) and $919 per year. Of course, figure in the cost of capital per hash and this difference is even more pronounced. Capital costs: GPU rig: $785 per Ghash/s. ASIC rig: $30 per Ghash/s. So ya, the cost of electricity is becoming much less of a factor than it used to be.
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fizzisist
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September 30, 2012, 11:19:18 PM |
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One of the biggest costs in running mining equipment is going to be power consumption. So ya, the cost of electricity is becoming much less of a factor than it used to be. I disagree. Cost of electricity is always the number one concern when mining because you are essentially turning electricity into bitcoins. Cost of equipment is number two, and only matters when you are buying equipment or considering selling it. Since equipment isn't 100% liquid, it's the electricity cost, difficulty, and exchange rate that you are watching on a day to day basis, i.e. "should I mine today or turn it off." Furthermore, if your equipment is more efficient than everyone else's (or your electricity is cheaper) you will be always be able to keep mining, in theory at least.
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Inaba
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September 30, 2012, 11:32:29 PM |
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I have to agree with fizzisist, ultimately it's going to eventually end up at the cost to run whatever mining hardware you have. The initial costs will be paid back at some point, so if a unit costs 2x as much to run, the value of that equipment is 1/2 comparable equipment that is 2x as power efficient, even if the initial costs are the same or even higher.
But it's even more counter-intuitive than that - your ROI is going to be cut by a factor equivalent to the difference in power consumption over the term of the ROI... I think I phrased that right. So if your unit is 2x a power efficient, that also reduces your ROI time factor, even if you disregard your profit after the ROI has been met.
It's all about the power efficiency in the end.
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squid
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September 30, 2012, 11:39:08 PM |
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Hi Dust, I think is is fair to say that it is not clear what Tom is saying there. I would rather wait for him to announce the info and then we can add it to the list. Best, gigavps Tom said exactly in the above comment "[the 27Gh/s device] uses less electricity than the ModMiner Quad", so it is pretty clear to me that it means less than 40Watt. Hence 675 Mhash/Joule, or 1.48 J/Ghash. Now if you wanted to be pointy, one could say that Tom did not promise the 54Gh/s device would have the same efficiency as the 27Gh/s one... Considering gigavps has a vendetta against Tom and btcfpga (and obvious bias towards BFL since that what he invested in) expected him to he hesitant in reporting numbers that are comparable to BFL.
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Jutarul
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September 30, 2012, 11:44:55 PM |
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Considering gigavps has a vendetta against Tom and btcfpga (and obvious bias towards BFL since that what he invested in) expected him to he hesitant in reporting numbers that are comparable to BFL.
It just amazes me to see BFL claiming to have reached 1J/GH. If it were April 1st I would be assured it's a joke. I simply don't understand how they could push that technology so hard in such a limited amount of time, and competitors don't get even close to it.
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mrb
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October 01, 2012, 12:47:47 AM |
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Considering gigavps has a vendetta against Tom and btcfpga (and obvious bias towards BFL since that what he invested in) expected him to he hesitant in reporting numbers that are comparable to BFL.
It just amazes me to see BFL claiming to have reached 1J/GH. If it were April 1st I would be assured it's a joke. I simply don't understand how they could push that technology so hard in such a limited amount of time, and competitors don't get even close to it. Why can't you understand? Simple math shows that 950-1500 Mhash/J should be possible with a 65nm ASIC: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95762.0
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jamesg (OP)
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October 01, 2012, 12:55:18 AM |
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Considering gigavps has a vendetta against Tom and btcfpga (and obvious bias towards BFL since that what he invested in) expected him to he hesitant in reporting numbers that are comparable to BFL.
Hi squid, I have put this thread together to help consolidate information based on provable facts. I am trying to be impartial and objective. If you feel Tom's statement cited earlier in the thread is clear and concise, I will add it to the OP. Best, gigavps
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Jutarul
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October 01, 2012, 01:34:13 AM |
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Thanks for the link. Is there any indication that BFL is doing 65nm? AFAIK the lower you go the higher the risk that the chip is a total failure, and you have to go back to the drawing board. Small problems can be fixed after the chip is produced, but that also requires some engineering time.
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Bogart
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October 01, 2012, 02:16:13 AM Last edit: October 01, 2012, 02:33:52 AM by Bogart |
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It just amazes me to see BFL claiming to have reached 1J/GH. If it were April 1st I would be assured it's a joke. I simply don't understand how they could push that technology so hard in such a limited amount of time, and competitors don't get even close to it.
http://www.theonion.com/articles/fuck-everything-were-doing-five-blades,11056/
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squid
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October 01, 2012, 02:43:55 AM |
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Considering gigavps has a vendetta against Tom and btcfpga (and obvious bias towards BFL since that what he invested in) expected him to he hesitant in reporting numbers that are comparable to BFL.
Hi squid, I have put this thread together to help consolidate information based on provable facts. I am trying to be impartial and objective. If you feel Tom's statement cited earlier in the thread is clear and concise, I will add it to the OP. Best, gigavps Nah, Tom has stated that he will give an estimate once he gets the prototype in his hands.
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kano
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October 01, 2012, 03:20:28 AM Last edit: October 01, 2012, 03:35:21 AM by kano |
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Actually - up front the power performance really doesn't matter at all - it's only in the long term if difficulty rises orders of magnitude faster than the BTC price rises. Consider today - I can run 560W of mining hardware for about $80 a month in an expensive energy price country (Aus) My 560W produces almost 1BTC per day - but with $12 BTC that's approximately $300 - $80 = $220 profit a month and the cost is about 27% If I switched to a 54GH/s bASIC miner for $1069.99 from http://www.BitcoinASIC.com and it was using (as a random number guess) 60W, then that would be at the moment around $8.80 a month and produce approximately $6,931.83 profit a month - so only 0.13% energy cost Now when the difficulty goes up 10x, if the BTC price stays the same at $12 (and doesn't go up) that will of course be 1.3% - still seems small ... Double that power and you get: 2.6% ... still seems small ... 20x difficulty and double power: 5.1% ... still not a big deal yet ... By the time it matters, anyone who cares about that number may well be using the next generation of ASIC devices ... ... though I don't think anyone has proven any power 'facts' yet ... Edit: Oh I should add: 20x difficulty, double power, half block reward, still $12: 10.2% - I could deal with that ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
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freeAgent
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October 01, 2012, 12:06:56 PM |
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Having already ordered a jalapeno, I'd say im pretty happy that the power usage will be so low. If I can run this straight from the usb ports on my raspberry pi, I will be very happy.
If these generate a considerable amount of heat, I might even use it to warm my little sisters hermit crab tank, and heaters like that use around the same amount of power.
I just wonder when the new "little SC's" will be available, I might purchase one if I can somehow use my jalapeno order towards the price. Its cool to see all these asics popping up, I wonder what kind of miners will come up next? Huge supercooled quantum miners?
There's no chance you'll be able to run the Jalapeno directly off the USB ports on the Raspberry Pi. You'll have to use a USB hub. http://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/340/how-much-power-can-be-provided-through-usb
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Inaba
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October 01, 2012, 02:07:28 PM |
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You (and Tom) are dreaming if you think it's going to run at 60w. The reason he doesn't want to post his power specs is because he knows they are going to be high.
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SkRRJyTC
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October 01, 2012, 02:13:34 PM |
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You (and Tom) are dreaming if you think it's going to run at 60w. The reason he doesn't want to post his power specs is because he knows they are going to be high.
Why is it attainable for your company but only dream-able for others?
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squid
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October 01, 2012, 02:57:48 PM |
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You (and Tom) are dreaming if you think it's going to run at 60w. The reason he doesn't want to post his power specs is because he knows they are going to be high.
Why is it attainable for your company but only dream-able for others? My guess is avalon is the only reasonable prediction and once we get actual prototypes out we will see this
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bobitza
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October 01, 2012, 05:04:52 PM |
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One of the biggest costs in running mining equipment is going to be power consumption. So ya, the cost of electricity is becoming much less of a factor than it used to be. I disagree. Cost of electricity is always the number one concern when mining because you are essentially turning electricity into bitcoins. Cost of equipment is number two, and only matters when you are buying equipment or considering selling it. I agree with the disagreement ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) In the long-run, the cost of the electricity is THE factor that will decide who keeps his/her ASICs plugged in and who will turn them off. The race to bring the most Gh/s/W is on and the winner(s) should sell the most ASICs in the market (all other things being equal). Once you buy the equipment, the money paid should be considered sunken costs unless you plan to resale the equipment in which case you need anticipate resale value and/or time timeframe needed to recoup the investment. To quote Obsi: With the reward halving and coming ASIC price wars we might see first gen ASIC miners with high electricity rates priced out of the market sometime in 2013.
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Bogart
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October 01, 2012, 05:18:21 PM |
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You (and Tom) are dreaming if you think it's going to run at 60w. The reason he doesn't want to post his power specs is because he knows they are going to be high.
Why is it attainable for your company but only dream-able for others? Maybe it's because they are producing a Full Custom ASIC where the others use Standard Cell designs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT-smMzg54k&feature=relmfuat 0.48 "full-custom asics, etc By the way, BFL doesn't use the phrase "full custom" to mean the same thing it means in the industry. We don't? Please elaborate. (I'm serious, I'm not being snarky. If we/I am using it incorrectly, then I would like to use the proper term.) Standard-cell ASICs and synthesis-flow ASICs are not considered full-custom chips. The phrase "full y custom" is a BFL-ism that sounds a lot like "truthiness" ![Smiley](https://bitcointalk.org/Smileys/default/smiley.gif) In fact the third google hit for "fully custom asic" on the entire interweb is BFL which ought to be a hint that it is a contortion of the usual industry terminology... Of course that assumes they're being on the level with all of these statements.
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jamesg (OP)
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October 01, 2012, 05:45:15 PM |
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Maybe it's because they are producing a Full Custom ASIC where the others use Standard Cell designs:
Of course that assumes they're being on the level with all of these statements.
IMHO, I believe that BFL have learned the lessons of the past with underestimating power consumption and over estimating Mh/s. I also do not believe they would be using the phrase "full custom" unless they were doing just that.
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Keefe
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October 01, 2012, 06:39:04 PM Last edit: October 01, 2012, 06:50:14 PM by Keefe |
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You (and Tom) are dreaming if you think it's going to run at 60w. The reason he doesn't want to post his power specs is because he knows they are going to be high.
Why is it attainable for your company but only dream-able for others? Because BFL is using a 65nm process and Tom is using 130nm? That's a 4x difference in power use right there. Actually, I'm not sure what Tom is using. Maybe I'm thinking of Avalon. Anyone know for sure?
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