Scammer tag: Nefario.

[Namworld]

III.b. In spite of III.a. Nefario declared Usagi as the head of the ad-hoc commission that was to review GLBSE assets for inclusion in blue/white categories.

As to your objection to III.b, I recall seeing somewhere Usagi claiming that (a Goat quote, if memory serves). You may well be correct, it's quite impossible to know the truth of that matter.

It is actually quite possible to know as I'm one of the GLBSE user who was included in said group. Hence why I claimed this. It is true however Usagi actually wanted to have a group which had voting power on listing new assets, but Nefario never agreed to that. He strictly agreed to receive input and opinions. He kept all decision power.

It is this kind of situation for which you should have full quotes from an official source before claiming things as facts. People spot those false "facts" in your posts constantly, which pass a lot of hearsay as "facts".

I really like MPEx, but I do not appreciate how you've been managing PR for it. If you're to propose MPEx as the best choice by attacking the competition's credibility instead of promoting MPEx's superiority, at least get your facts straight and quoted in full.

What's this to do with anything? Quoting in full is not practical for the obvious reason that even if I could be bothered to do it nobody'd be bothered to read it, some summarization is unavoidable. Otherwise the facts are pretty much straight, I would say (even if you've offered your own opinion as to what may or may not have been the case with III.b., that opinion is not a fact quite yet.)

Neither would your opinion be more of a fact for III.b., although you present it as a fact. I however can confirm Nefario never appointed Usagi to take any kind of decision.

It has to do with the fact you're the public face of MPEx and it seems you promote MPEx by attacking competing services' credibility. But it hurts your own credibility when you present as facts what is actually hearsay without quoting an official source. I would simply appreciate that better diligence be done when researching information before presenting them as facts. If claims are made by an unofficial source to the concerned party, it would also be good to quote that person so people know who made that claim which is just that, until proven false or true. People have been spotting and complaining multiple times in your reports lines that are without any quotes making affirmations as if they were fact, when you are simply reporting claims made by others.

As for the OP, Nefario isn't responsible for the actions of others. If Usagi/Diablo is a scammer, you don't blame the middleman unless you can prove he knowingly aided and abetted it. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

Once Nefario used his position of authority to act in a certain way, all the people harmed by his failure to act in the same way in the same circumstances had a legitimate claim against him. This isn't me making shit up, this is 500 years of established equitable practice at common law and possibly more than 500 years in the civil system. You might not know about this, even if it's basic and well known in the legal profession; it's obscure from a public PoV, and I guess nobody told you to go to law school first if you want to be a mod on some forum. However, you must know socially someone who actually is a solicitor/barrister/etc. Ask them.

I would have to say, this seems like negligence. But again, he acted once on DMC because it went to around 1% of IPO price, something unseen before elsewhere, which is why he acted this way. Normally, he does act (suspension of trading) when an asset operator runs away. He never quite moderated the GLBSE market and moderates it more and more strictly under pressure from the public. He never claimed to verify if anything issuing on GLBSE was to be a scam or not, as it is not verifiable. He also chose to allow anyone to issue, regardless of the risk for it to turn out to be a scam.

Albeit I also believe this unregulated market is far from ideal, Nefario did not personally scam/defraud anyone yet, until proven otherwise. The fact he allows most people to issue on the platform and does not investigate who the issuer is does not suddenly make him the cause of the scam occuring, just like you don't blame the forum owner here for scams occurring in the marketplace. Bitcoiners are left to do their own homework before departing themselves of their Bitcoins.

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[JoelKatz]

Albeit I also believe this unregulated market is far from ideal, Nefario did not personally scam/defraud anyone yet, until proven otherwise.

Although I wouldn't say I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, it certainly appears (at least to me) more likely than not that Nefario delisted all of Goat's assets just to get back at Goat for an unrelated issue and defrauded GLBSE customers that owned those assets by completely disregarding his obligation to protect the value of their ownership interests in those assets. There is no way he could not have known that the delisting would reduce the value of those assets.

[Namworld]

Albeit I also believe this unregulated market is far from ideal, Nefario did not personally scam/defraud anyone yet, until proven otherwise.

Although I wouldn't say I'm convinced beyond a reasonable doubt, it certainly appears (at least to me) more likely than not that Nefario delisted all of Goat's assets just to get back at Goat for an unrelated issue and defrauded GLBSE customers that owned those assets by completely disregarding his obligation to protect the value of their ownership interests in those assets. There is no way he could not have known that the delisting would reduce the value of those assets.

Actual stock exchanges that are regulated can delist stocks for a variety of reasons (inluding no longer meeting listing requirements) and are not obligated to protect it's value. The company behind the stocks are ultimately responsible for managing the security, with or without a stock market to trade on. To defraud would have required Nefario to steal those customers funds and run with them.

Fraud is committed on major stock exchanges and those stock exchange can delist stocks no longer fitting the requirements. They are not normally held responsible for that however, they are simply a medium for company and investors to trade assets. That an asset gets delisted does not prevent it's trade over-the-counter between whoever is willing to trade the assets or the company to pay the shareholders.

I can only agree to the fact that the delisting was rashly and poorly executed, definitely in an attempt to sanction Chaang. I can also agree that the delisting method provided for proof of ownership is poorly adequate.

Albeit I also believe this unregulated market is far from ideal, Nefario did not personally scam/defraud anyone yet, until proven otherwise.

I am not attempting to be contentious with this question.  Please keep that in mind. :-)

Does closing the site, freezing funds¹, and generally refusing to comment or explain the situation, fulfill at least the forum requirements to be marked as a scammer, at least until such time as repair is made?

¹ While people should not invest more than they can lose, we know people are retards, morons, and semi-sentient gagslime.  Doing this at the beginning of the month means that a number of people are probably in a position of having to go elsewhere for rent, utility, or other money.  Never mind the lost opportunity to exit their BTC position with the recent spike and re-enter now that it has dipped.

I've seen much bigger businesses go offline than GLBSE for technical reason. I don't immediately call it a fraud after 1 or 2 days however. I'm aware many people are concerned with the previous events (Bitcoinica, Pirate, etc.), but I would not pronounce myself yet on that matter, especially after such a short time has passed.

[Sant001]

I don't understand where GLBSE thinks they get the authority to issue these codes without negotiating a delisting procedure with you. And by failing to even try to do that, they've seriously betrayed their customers who now have a worthless code, with no known redemption scheme, instead of an ownership interest in an asset.

Perhaps another exchange could accept these codes? Perhaps OP and Goat could work this out together?

[MPOE-PR]

Can we finally get a move on this please?

[Yolocoin]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

[smoothie]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

I don't see what Theymos did under his own actions/will that was scammer material.

[DiabloD3]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

No, simply because nefario clearly was not involving the board. He did not follow their orders, he did not communicate with them, and now no one knows why the site is down.

I don't blame Theymos for selling his share in GLBSE, its a sinking ship.

[Yolocoin]

Ownership is part and parcel to responsibility.

[fcmatt]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

No, simply because nefario clearly was not involving the board. He did not follow their orders, he did not communicate with them, and now no one knows why the site is down.

I don't blame Theymos for selling his share in GLBSE, its a sinking ship.

Pfft. We now see the mods defending each other.
Part owner gets ripped off and that excuses the part owner from responsibility for customers getting ripped.
Why am i not surprised?

[Bogart]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

No, simply because nefario clearly was not involving the board. He did not follow their orders, he did not communicate with them, and now no one knows why the site is down.

I don't blame Theymos for selling his share in GLBSE, its a sinking ship.

Pfft. We now see the mods defending each other.
Part owner gets ripped off and that excuses the part owner from responsibility for customers getting ripped.
Why am i not surprised?

The company GLBSE took our assets.  The liability belongs to the company.  As for which individuals within the company the blame lies with, that's a matter for the company to sort out internally.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

No, simply because nefario clearly was not involving the board. He did not follow their orders, he did not communicate with them, and now no one knows why the site is down.

I don't blame Theymos for selling his share in GLBSE, its a sinking ship.

Pfft. We now see the mods defending each other.
Part owner gets ripped off and that excuses the part owner from responsibility for customers getting ripped.
Why am i not surprised?

The company GLBSE took our assets.  The liability belongs to the company.  As for which individuals within the company the blame lies with, that's a matter for the company to sort out internally.

GLBSE isnt a company. According to the government only Nefario is responsible and anyone else associated with it is invisible. Which is why he wont be able to explain where all the money went.

[fcmatt]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

No, simply because nefario clearly was not involving the board. He did not follow their orders, he did not communicate with them, and now no one knows why the site is down.

I don't blame Theymos for selling his share in GLBSE, its a sinking ship.

Pfft. We now see the mods defending each other.
Part owner gets ripped off and that excuses the part owner from responsibility for customers getting ripped.
Why am i not surprised?

The company GLBSE took our assets.  The liability belongs to the company.  As for which individuals within the company the blame lies with, that's a matter for the company to sort out internally.

GLBSE isnt a company. According to the government only Nefario is responsible and anyone else associated with it is invisible. Which is why he wont be able to explain where all the money went.

Theymos has 600-800 btc of gblse assets. How can one say nefario is the only one responsible is hilarious.
Gblse are trying to get off a sinking ship without any crap hitting them as they jump.
Nefario is a perfect scapegoat.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Well considering that Theymos is part owner GLBSE, and the scams listed were perpetrated by GLBSE in an official capacity, shouldn't Theymos get a scammer tag too?

No, simply because nefario clearly was not involving the board. He did not follow their orders, he did not communicate with them, and now no one knows why the site is down.

I don't blame Theymos for selling his share in GLBSE, its a sinking ship.

Pfft. We now see the mods defending each other.
Part owner gets ripped off and that excuses the part owner from responsibility for customers getting ripped.
Why am i not surprised?

The company GLBSE took our assets.  The liability belongs to the company.  As for which individuals within the company the blame lies with, that's a matter for the company to sort out internally.

GLBSE isnt a company. According to the government only Nefario is responsible and anyone else associated with it is invisible. Which is why he wont be able to explain where all the money went.

Theymos has 600-800 btc of gblse assets. How can one say nefario is the only one responsible is hilarious.
Gblse are trying to get off a sinking ship without any crap hitting them as they jump.
Nefario is a perfect scapegoat.

Nefario is the operator and makes the day to day decisions. Theymos is the treasurer.

Anyone who knows anything about  associations or unions or even non profit orgs can tell you how that works.

[repentance]

Nefario is the operator and makes the day to day decisions. Theymos is the treasurer.

Anyone who knows anything about  associations or unions or even non profit orgs can tell you how that works.

It works that way if they're legally incorporated as such.  If they're not, the business has no separate legal status from the individuals who comprise it - all of the individuals.  Even if it was incorporated, the office-holders are legally liable and the treasurer is an office-bearer.

[HorseRider]

I think if nefario return all the bitcoins and the issuer-shareholder relationship database to GLBSE users, there will not be likely anyone suing Nefario and other GLBSE Global partners.. I don't think SEC will sue or after GLBSE persistently. SEC will just force GLBSE shut down by giving a warning. GLBSE is a very small business, SEC has something bigger to deal with its limited budget.

[Bitcoin Oz]

Nefario is the operator and makes the day to day decisions. Theymos is the treasurer.

Anyone who knows anything about  associations or unions or even non profit orgs can tell you how that works.

It works that way if they're legally incorporated as such.  If they're not, the business has no separate legal status from the individuals who comprise it - all of the individuals.  Even if it was incorporated, the office-holders are legally liable and the treasurer is an office-bearer.

You cant sue people for obeying the law. Which is basically what Nefario is doing, and you cant force the shareholders to do something illegal. If it goes well people will get their coins back, it sucks that AMl is involved but you gotta do what you gotta do.

[repentance]

I think if nefario return all the bitcoins and the issuer-shareholder relationship database to GLBSE users, there will not be likely anyone suing Nefario and other GLBSE Global partners.. I don't think SEC will sue or after GLBSE persistently. SEC will just force GLBSE shut down by giving a warning. GLBSE is a very small business, SEC has something bigger to deal with its limited budget.

Nobody knows at this point what legal issue has brought about the sudden closure of GLBSE because Nefario has so far refused to reveal that information.  While the catalyst may well have been the SEC's investigation into pirate, it could be the UK's FSA which has delivered the smack down.  While it's true that regulators rarely pursue criminal charges against small operators, that doesn't mean that they don't issue administrative penalties against small operators.  Regulators also decide to blitz specific types of illegal activity from time to time and they generally throw the book at anyone who gets caught during such blitzes.

That GLBSE was offering unregistered securities to the public is only one legal issue.  It also played a role in facilitating pirate's scam and that may create a bigger legal problem for the owners than simply operating an unregulated exchange.

[stochastic]

I thought bitcoin was just a very expensive version of Second Life.

[Bitcoin Oz]

I thought bitcoin was just a very expensive version of Second Life.

lol so did I. Theres a stock market in second life