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Author Topic: StakeMiners: restricted withdrawals, falsified stats, insolvent. Do not invest!  (Read 11769 times)
Phildo
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January 05, 2016, 03:58:25 PM
 #121

Was it a trick question or did you really not know the answer?

He was tricking suchmoon to make the "gotcha" statement that the value of stakeminers' holdings is at the mercy of the market prices for coins, as if that was some earth shattering revelation.

I edited my post as you were replying to it. I see the 'gotcha' now. His argument seems to be that since prices change we shouldn't use prices to determine the value of things and instead can arbitrarily claim that our holdings are worth whatever we want them to be worth.

It's worrying that someone responsible for other people's money can think like that.
[/quote]

It's a little worrying, but this outcome was so obvious that I don't really feel too bad. I also wonder how many people are actually there and how much he is actually responsible for. I don't check the websites where he did his advertising often, but when I have looked through those threads I didn't see as many people defending him as you find in other scam operations like cloud mining, so I'm not sure how many real customers there are.

If he really took in 128 btc and only had 40 btc worth of coins left wouldn't there be some people complaining like when various mining companies failed, when pirate stopped paying, when all the other scams eventually started to unravel?

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January 05, 2016, 04:06:05 PM
 #122

I just signed up at stakeminers to get access to the wallet details for myself.

I saw this:



There's no price for NET, but that seems to be the only coin held by stakeminers worth a significant amount.

According to coinmarketcap, NET is only traded on one exchange (if you don't count cryptsy, which seems reasonable): https://www.cryptopia.co.nz/Exchange - its price there is 90 satoshis.

According to my calculations then:

Quote
altcoin           units            price              value
-----------    --------       ----------        -----------
Netcoin        22581657       0.00000090        20.32349130 (https://www.cryptopia.co.nz/Exchange)
OKCash          1888129       0.00000187         3.53080123
HyperStake      1481394       0.00000106         1.57027764
HyperCrypto       32090       0.00001973         0.63313570
Tekcoin          340321       0.00000631         2.14742551
BitBean         5805054       0.00000012         0.69660648
Diamond            5125       0.00062916         3.22444500
BottleCaps       301533       0.00000419         1.26342327
Hobonickels      108708       0.00001700         1.84803600
PayCon           308034       0.00000149         0.45897066
Ratecoin         411533       0.00000100         0.41153300
Quotient         147603       0.00000080         0.11808240
                                                -----------
                                                36.22622819 BTC

Total holdings = 36 BTC.

If instead we use the cryptsy price for NET (https://www.cryptsy.com/markets/view/NET_BTC = 0.00000108) then the netcoin holdings are worth:

22581657 * 0.00000108 = 24.38818956 BTC, and the total holdings are worth 40.29092645 BTC.

This is much closer to suchmoon's findings than the official stateminers' valuation.

Note that I took the balances and prices from the stakeminers page and didn't attempt to verify any of them with actual reality.

It would be useful if the stakeminers page could be updated to include a calculation of the current value of the holdings, and an explanation of the difference between the actual and claimed investment values.

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dooglus
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January 05, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
 #123

If he really took in 128 btc and only had 40 btc worth of coins left wouldn't there be some people complaining like when various mining companies failed, when pirate stopped paying, when all the other scams eventually started to unravel?

Not if he's using long-term investor funds to make short-term investors whole.

People don't complain about Ponzi schemes until they can no longer hide their insolvency.

It appears that stakeminers still has around 33% of the coins they need to pay their liabilities. You'll see the complaints start when that number reaches 0%.

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January 05, 2016, 04:20:54 PM
 #124

Note that I took the balances and prices from the stakeminers page and didn't attempt to verify any of them with actual reality.

I did the same thing yesterday. To my knowledge StakeMiners uses Cryptonator for the exchange rates (at least the widget on the dashboard page does). NET was showing 113 sat then (edit: shows 108 now so apparently it uses Cryptsy rates).

The Cryptsy issue highlights another problem - there is no way cyberpinoy could liquidate any substantial amount of coins anywhere near those published rates. Yobit and Cryptopia don't have the volume. So if we tried to verify those rates - should we consider the order depth?

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January 05, 2016, 04:23:23 PM
 #125

The Cryptsy issue highlights another problem - there is no way cyberpinoy could liquidate any substantial amount of coins anywhere near those published rates. Yobit and Cryptopia don't have the volume. So if we tried to verify those rates - should we consider the order depth?

Absolutely... there's no way to trade even 40 btc at advertised rates... market depth just isn't there... he'd have to dig into the bottom of the offers to get back into btc...

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January 05, 2016, 04:25:08 PM
 #126

Absolutely... there's no way to trade even 40 btc at advertised rates... market depth just isn't there... he'd have to dig into the bottom of the offers to get back into btc...

I checked the market depth for NET on cryptopia. Selling 20 million NET would get you 0.20913306 BTC. There's no demand for it apparently.

I tried the same on cryptsy, but something's wrong there - selling 89k NET would get me MINUS 0.15 BTC?



I can't see how to find the total buy depth, but it isn't very much.

The next withdrawal from stakeminers could bankrupt them.

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January 05, 2016, 04:34:28 PM
 #127

I tried the same on cryptsy, but something's wrong there - selling 89k NET would get me MINUS 0.15 BTC?

http://i.imgur.com/I3smMf3.png

I can't see how to find the total buy depth, but it isn't very much.

The next withdrawal from stakeminers could bankrupt them.

Cryptsy's no trade fees most likely caused the negative... either that or they are stating through indirect means they don't have the coin to trade?  I guess there's a third option... Cryptsy truly is Craptsy...

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January 05, 2016, 04:36:09 PM
 #128

Absolutely... there's no way to trade even 40 btc at advertised rates... market depth just isn't there... he'd have to dig into the bottom of the offers to get back into btc...

I checked the market depth for NET on cryptopia. Selling 20 million NET would get you 0.20913306 BTC. There's no demand for it apparently.

I tried the same on cryptsy, but something's wrong there - selling 89k NET would get me MINUS 0.15 BTC?


It's Cryptsy, of course you would end up with -0.15 BTC  Grin

http://i.imgur.com/I3smMf3.png

I can't see how to find the total buy depth, but it isn't very much.

The next withdrawal from stakeminers could bankrupt them.

That's why he has this in the TOS:
Quote
Once your withdrawal request is received Stakeminers will calculate the available BTC in excess or earnings and advise you of your BTC payout for that month.

If your payout amount is less than the available BTC you will be paid out in full that month, if your payout amount is more than the available BTC you will be paid the BTC amount available this month and any balance owning will be paid next month

Example: You request a withdrawal of 10 BTC. Stakeminers calculates that 6 BTC are available for withdrawal this month. Stakeminers will return to you 6 BTC this month and 4 BTC next month.

https://stakeminers.com/terms.php

BTW the TOS has been updated with new spelling errors ("PRINCIPLAL") and other funnies (new altcoin policy takes effect "01 January 2015" and section numbering goes 24, 25, 26, 25).

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January 05, 2016, 04:41:10 PM
 #129

That's why he has this in the TOS:
Quote
Once your withdrawal request is received Stakeminers will calculate the available BTC in excess or earnings and advise you of your BTC payout for that month.

If your payout amount is less than the available BTC you will be paid out in full that month, if your payout amount is more than the available BTC you will be paid the BTC amount available this month and any balance owning will be paid next month

Example: You request a withdrawal of 10 BTC. Stakeminers calculates that 6 BTC are available for withdrawal this month. Stakeminers will return to you 6 BTC this month and 4 BTC next month.

https://stakeminers.com/terms.php

BTW the TOS has been updated with new spelling errors ("PRINCIPLAL") and other funnies (new altcoin policy takes effect "01 January 2015" and section numbering goes 24, 25, 26, 25).

Don't forget "...any balance owning will be paid next month..."

But I really like this one:

Quote
If more than one withdrawal is requested in the same month, the withdrawals will be paid out to full in the order they are received. The order will be established by the date on your email requesting the withdrawal. This may result in your waiting more than one month to receive your full principal.

In other news... If everyone heads for the door only the first person will get out...

This space not for rent...
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January 05, 2016, 05:24:59 PM
 #130

And how does a situation like this effect your chart? What does the exchange rate going up do to the respective holding of that or other coins whose exchange rate increases by by any percent, and hjow would this show in your little chart suchmoon?

It is all properly accounted for in my spreadsheet. Netcoin value went up by ~2 BTC but other coins went down by more than that resulting in a ~8 BTC total loss for the month.

So we can safely see your charts are not correct in calling me a liar, since at any time those values can change and your attack is merely at the mercy of the coin markets.

That is all we needed to know.

Thank you now we better understand your point and your agenda.

I'm correctly calling you a liar because you claim that StakeMiners has 126 BTC invested. The real amount is nowhere near that. It was ~50 BTC last month and ~42 BTC this month and is steadily going down. Therefore your statement about 126 BTC is a lie.

If at any point the real value of your investments comes within 10% of your declared value I will put "NO" in the spreadsheet. You can achieve that in one of two ways:

1) start publishing the real investment value instead of your bogus 126 BTC

or

2) show wallet addresses containing 126 BTC (or at least 114 BTC to come within 10%)

Again since it just wont get thru your head

So we can safely see your charts are not correct in calling me a liar, since at any time those values can change and your attack is merely at the mercy of the coin markets.

That is all we needed to know.

Thank you now we better understand your point and your agenda.

Get it now?


That is all we needed to know.

Thank you now we better understand your point and your agenda.

Get it now?

[/quote]

I'm curious who this "we" is?
I showed on https://forum.gethashing.com/t/ponzi-pos-coin-staking-stakeminers-com/3925/1298 that the majority of your "team" is fictional when you were trying to push this game out in May 2015.

Tai Bui (CFO) - No longer shows any affiliation to your business. (Showed previously CFO of Stakeminers.com on FB)
Michael Wilterdink (Chairman/BOI) - Shows the only affiliation to your business. Conveniently one of the Core Engineers for NET. (Doesn't have an active FB page anymore though)
Michael Zinck (Vice Chairman) - No affiliation to your business. (Nice FB review for stakeminers)
Nigel Dollentas (Social Media Officer) - Shows no affiliation, doesn't reply to ANY inquiries about it, and also is a writer at Bitcoinist.net . You would think he would reply to clear anything up. But maybe the fact he was UNDERAGE might have something to do with that.
Graham Smith (Secretary) - Hid himself wisely from being affiliated to you.

None of these people, except Michael Wilterdink, seems to be part of your group. None of your customers or personal seem to help sort out the same questions, each forum has for you and your operations.

Huskypower2015 (trustee) eventually did come on the GH thread after he was awoken to a lot of the news we were pointing out about your ponzi system. He made it blatantly aware none of the personal were ever informed about your decisions and had a nasty fall out to retrieve the monies he invested. Then you tried to blame the lack of communications on him. Which is a joke if you knew anything about business and being a CEO.

Who's left, you and MZ? You can tell us because you don't make anyone sign a NDA about your operations or even a good contract or agreement for BOI's/Trustee's to establish fundamental business operations.

We're still waiting to play pretend with you on what office suite you have at Pryce Business Park J.P. Laurel Ave Davao City, 8000. Lemme guess you own the building and don't need to list your office like the rest of the businesses there?

Where is stakeminers registered or incorporated at by the way? It seems like you collected a bunch of aliases at one time and made up a group, then called it a business.

Payouts are just one detail about how transparent this ponzi is.
I look forward to your ramblings.

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January 05, 2016, 11:43:33 PM
 #131

I hate to come back in here but I need to help you guys clear a few things up.

You guys are forgetting a really important factor in your assessment of insolvency.

You guys do understand that not everyone in our service are BTC depositors right? When we have a withdraw from a person who has invested any alt coins to our service he gets those coins back, we do not give him the BTC value of his coins. We are not an exchange, nor a savings bank, we are a Mining Service and a very good one.

We use a very fair depositing policy for direct deposits, as a matter of fact everything we do uses a very strict Fair to Everyone policy. And we are revamping the new direct deposit system to make it easier for those clients who want to use our service.

StakeMiners was set up as an income opportunity for people. This would include BTC investors as well. The "Cloud" Mining part is the fact that we do the work for the users, work that Stakers who are invested with us understand. A lot of POW biased people do not understand the work involved in Staking a basket of coins at the same time. Its easy to run 1 wallet and stake, or do a POW service, you plug and go, switch out as new hardware becomes available. Staking one cin is very easy especially if you pick a passive coin like Netcoin or Tekcoin. Setting Tekcoin up for daily stakes would be a bit more time consuming, but once completed its all easy from there. But staking 12 cons is a bit more work, and a lot more knowledge. Becasue things that work for one coin will not work for another.

Why should a service that offers people recurring weekly income with no work involved on their part be limited to altcoin users? Users also do not have to deposit BTC they can easily go and buy one of the coins we stake and deposit with that instead. I would even allow a depositor buying a sufficient amount of a Staking coin we do not stake and add that coin for him to our portfolio if he so wishes.

@ pixelpowered

I love how some people like to say things like:

I showed


Or "I proved" something, when in fact they did nothing of the sort.

Please understand YOUR opinion is not fact, and facebook is not the only resource about what people do and who they are.

But with any problem there is always a solution, Get a hangout up, or we can invite you to one of the many skype groups we are all in where you can talk to us via video to see we are all not the same person, and we will all gladly tell you to your face we are involved in StakeMiners.

All those people exist, and no matter if you like it or not we all meet and discuss the policies of StakeMiners

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January 06, 2016, 12:04:33 AM
 #132

words

Do you or do you not have 126 BTC or an equivalent amount of altcoins at today's exchange rates?

Have you had this amount AT ANY POINT during the last 3 months? Last 6 months?

If part of your deposits is in altcoins how do you value those coins in BTC? Since your "advertised" total of ~126 BTC doesn't appear to move in sync with the market it would appear that you are overvaluing those altcoin-only deposits as well?

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January 06, 2016, 12:25:57 AM
 #133

We are not an exchange, nor a savings bank, we are a Mining Service and a very good one.

You claim you have 126 BTC invested. Why does the math add up to less than ~40 BTC when you are quoting 126 BTC ?

Quote
altcoin           units            price              value
-----------    --------       ----------        -----------
Netcoin        22581657       0.00000090        20.32349130 (https://www.cryptopia.co.nz/Exchange)
OKCash          1888129       0.00000187         3.53080123
HyperStake      1481394       0.00000106         1.57027764
HyperCrypto       32090       0.00001973         0.63313570
Tekcoin          340321       0.00000631         2.14742551
BitBean         5805054       0.00000012         0.69660648
Diamond            5125       0.00062916         3.22444500
BottleCaps       301533       0.00000419         1.26342327
Hobonickels      108708       0.00001700         1.84803600
PayCon           308034       0.00000149         0.45897066
Ratecoin         411533       0.00000100         0.41153300
Quotient         147603       0.00000080         0.11808240
                                                -----------
                                                36.22622819 BTC
SISAR
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January 06, 2016, 12:55:28 AM
 #134

It is fucking insane to invest in shits like this with bad liquidity of PoS coins. If StakeMiners try to cash out everything they would get maybe 10 BTC total and crash all markets. Stupid investors!

Listen, my friend. This is going to be very hard to comprehend but none of what you are seeing is real.
pixelpowered
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January 06, 2016, 01:53:33 AM
 #135


@ pixelpowered

I love how some people like to say things like:

I showed


Or "I proved" something, when in fact they did nothing of the sort.

Please understand YOUR opinion is not fact, and facebook is not the only resource about what people do and who they are.

But with any problem there is always a solution, Get a hangout up, or we can invite you to one of the many skype groups we are all in where you can talk to us via video to see we are all not the same person, and we will all gladly tell you to your face we are involved in StakeMiners.

All those people exist, and no matter if you like it or not we all meet and discuss the policies of StakeMiners

You know what I loved for a moment in time. Garza's and Milian's (BTClend) politicizing and deflecting diatribes. They were much better at it than you and used some monies to put up a decent front.
I'm not interested in a hangout with you ponzi group. I've yet to see anyone from your group, other than Huskypower2015, talk about your group. Only the neglect as a "business owner" to trustee's.
I asked you for your business registration number and suite number to your office, you know the one your faking on the website. Which is easily available if you were a real business.

Your not a real business and not a real CEO of anything. Your just a ponzi group that registered a site, setup weak social media, and a Filipino call center line.

dooglus
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January 06, 2016, 06:49:49 AM
 #136

You guys are forgetting a really important factor in your assessment of insolvency.

You guys do understand that not everyone in our service are BTC depositors right? When we have a withdraw from a person who has invested any alt coins to our service he gets those coins back, we do not give him the BTC value of his coins.

The only thing that matters when assessing solvency is whether your liabilities exceed your assets.

You write on your site that your liabilities are 126 BTC, and it appears that your assets are less than 40 BTC. That means that you are insolvent.

What am I missing? Some of your depositors deposited altcoins, and so you owe them altcoins? If so, why not list your liabilities as X BTC + Y NET or whatever?

A lot of POW biased people do not understand the work involved in Staking a basket of coins at the same time.

Maybe that's true, but why does it matter? People are questioning your solvency. Whether it is harder to manage 12 wallets than to manage 1 doesn't seem relevant to this question.

Why should a service that offers people recurring weekly income with no work involved on their part be limited to altcoin users?

It isn't, but again I don't think this is relevant. The most important question is whether stakeminers is solvent or not. It appears from the numbers you have published yourself that it is far from it. Is that the case?

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Phildo
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January 06, 2016, 12:34:40 PM
 #137

The problem with all of this leroy is that's it's trivially simple to do this thing right, and we have been telling how/asking you to do it the entire time.

You should only be dealing with alt-coins. Accepting and paying out BTC at all can set everyone up for failure because then they have to rely on somebody to make the correct decision on what coins to buy, when to buy them, when to sell them, and how to do the accounting. I know it makes you feel better to say 128 btc than 700 million zebracoins or whatever, but the step of switching from BTC to alt is a major point of failure.

I'm going to use made up numbers and an imaginary to prove my point, so don't' harp on the actual math, just the point of the example. If someone gave you 10k of zebracoin worth 1 btc, and you turned it into 11k zebracoin worth .8 btc, that's their fault for thinking zebracoin was a good investment. But if they gave you 1 btc, and YOU turned it into 10k zebracoin, and then you turned it into 11k zebracoin worth .8 btc, YOU cost them .2 BTC because they would have had .2 more btc by literally doing nothing.

If staking is the future and you are the superstaking master get rid of all the BTC and just start staking, because moving from BTC to various alt coins adds an additional point of failure, and one that is very likely to happen because the price of altcoins almost always goes down.

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vancefox
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January 06, 2016, 01:53:36 PM
 #138

The problem with all of this leroy is that's it's trivially simple to do this thing right, and we have been telling how/asking you to do it the entire time.

You should only be dealing with alt-coins. Accepting and paying out BTC at all can set everyone up for failure because then they have to rely on somebody to make the correct decision on what coins to buy, when to buy them, when to sell them, and how to do the accounting. I know it makes you feel better to say 128 btc than 700 million zebracoins or whatever, but the step of switching from BTC to alt is a major point of failure.

I'm going to use made up numbers and an imaginary to prove my point, so don't' harp on the actual math, just the point of the example. If someone gave you 10k of zebracoin worth 1 btc, and you turned it into 11k zebracoin worth .8 btc, that's their fault for thinking zebracoin was a good investment. But if they gave you 1 btc, and YOU turned it into 10k zebracoin, and then you turned it into 11k zebracoin worth .8 btc, YOU cost them .2 BTC because they would have had .2 more btc by literally doing nothing.

If staking is the future and you are the superstaking master get rid of all the BTC and just start staking, because moving from BTC to various alt coins adds an additional point of failure, and one that is very likely to happen because the price of altcoins almost always goes down.

But... But... Butt... Butts... winning?

No matter what there will always be someone to show glittery shiny stuff to get at least one moron to give their money/coin/possessions away for "investment"...

You'll never get rid of the pure idiots... they reproduce too quickly... and greed drives all of us to do stupid things every once in a while... it's the idiot in us from previous idiots in our gene pool...

This space not for rent...
blacklizard
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January 06, 2016, 03:38:13 PM
 #139


Well if thats not the pot calling the kettle black nothing is.

When you can follow the laws governing your state and country, as well as the rules on this forum I will to.

You and gleb were both asked not to post in my SMT which by the rules means you are not allowed to, But yet you didn't follow that rule now did you? Scroll up or back where gleb pointed out my thread was unlocked at which time you gladly broke the rules didnt you?

And dont say you dont know the rules or that isnt a rule, because you get the message every time I delete one of your libelous posts in my thread or others do in theirs.

Perhaps you could start by sharing your business registration number. Since you're a "law abiding citizen" I'd assume that StakeMiners i fully incorporated under local law and paying tax etc... or maybe not...

---

The Cryptsy issue highlights another problem - there is no way cyberpinoy could liquidate any substantial amount of coins anywhere near those published rates. Yobit and Cryptopia don't have the volume. So if we tried to verify those rates - should we consider the order depth?

Absolutely... there's no way to trade even 40 btc at advertised rates... market depth just isn't there... he'd have to dig into the bottom of the offers to get back into btc...

Cyberpinoy knows all of that. He's been trading BTC ever since it was roughly at 6 cents / coin and he also has "years" of experience as a Forex trader... at least that what he reckons / said in the past but maybe his timeline, history and experience has changed again...

---

As for the "massive" loss on the staking basket, what was StakeMiners thinking when the customer funds were invested (mainly) in "hyper-staking" coins. Anyone with an F in economics would have known that those coins and their inflation would kill the investments. That's why those coins are (at best) proof-of-concept coins or, as we like to call them, "funny money".
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January 06, 2016, 05:56:15 PM
 #140

If someone gave you 10k of zebracoin worth 1 btc, and you turned it into 11k zebracoin worth .8 btc, that's their fault for thinking zebracoin was a good investment. But if they gave you 1 btc, and YOU turned it into 10k zebracoin, and then you turned it into 11k zebracoin worth .8 btc, YOU cost them .2 BTC because they would have had .2 more btc by literally doing nothing.

I think what stakeminers is doing is even worse.

You give them 1 BTC, they buy 10k of zebracoin, turn them into 11k of zebracoin worth 0.8 BTC but tell you that your investment is now worth 1.1 BTC (because if 10k ZEB is worth 1 BTC then 11k must be worth 1.1 BTC, right? Prices go up and down but that shouldn't concern us).

When you come to withdraw they let you withdraw 1.1 BTC (minus fees, of course), apparently not realising that this leaves them insolvent (they had to sell someone else's coins in addition to your 11k ZEB to get the 1.1 BTC they sent you).

I'd love to be wrong about this, and for there to be a rational explanation for the mismatching numbers we see on the site.

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