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Author Topic: OLDEST KORAN ‘DESTABILISES’ ISLAMIC HISTORY, SCIENTISTS SAY IT PRE-DATES MOHAMED  (Read 3204 times)
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August 31, 2015, 06:34:21 PM
 #1




Fragments of an early Koran found in a Birmingham library may rewrite Islamic history after carbon dating revealed they could be older than Mohammed.

Scientists at the University of Oxford had already revealed that the parchment was among the oldest known Koranic texts in the world, but now several historians say it could be so old that it pre-dates the Muslim prophet, thus contradicting traditional accounts of his life and radically altering “the edifice of Islamic tradition.”

The dating reveals the text to have been written between AD568 and 645, while the dates of Mohammed’s life are traditionally given as AD570 to 632. This means that at the very latest it was written before the first formal texts were supposed to have been collated, and at the earliest it was written before or shortly after Mohammed was born.

Some academics now say that the impact of the text could be comparable to finding a copy of the Gospels dating back to before the time of Christ.

Historian Tom Holland told the Sunday Times that evidence was now mounting that traditional accounts of Islam’s origins are wrong.


“It destabilises, to put it mildly, the idea that we can know anything with certainty about how the Koran emerged — and that in turn has implications for the historicity of Muhammad and the Companions [his followers],” he said.

Other very old Korans also seem to confirm that written texts were circulating before Mohammed’s death.

Needless to say, Muslim academics have disputed the claims. Mustafa Shah of London’s School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) said: “If anything, the manuscript has consolidated traditional accounts of the Koran’s origins.”

Meanwhile, Shady Hekmat Nasser from the University of Cambridge said: “We already know from our sources that the Koran was a closed text very early on in Islam, and these discoveries only attest to the accuracy of these sources.”

Dr Keith Small, a Koranic manuscript consultant at Oxford’s Bodleian Library, admits the carbon dating applies to the parchment, not the ink, while the calligraphy is characteristic of a later style.

Nevertheless, he believes the dates are probably correct and could raise serious questions for Islam.

“If the [carbon] dates apply to the parchment and the ink, and the dates across the entire range apply, then the Koran — or at least portions of it — pre-dates Muhammad, and moves back the years that an Arabic literary culture is in place well into the 500s.

“This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.

“This would radically alter the edifice of Islamic tradition and the history of the rise of Islam in late Near Eastern antiquity would have to be completely revised, somehow accounting for another book of scripture coming into existence 50 to 100 years before, and then also explaining how this was co-opted into what became the entity of Islam by around AD700.”


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/08/31/oldest-koran-destabilises-islamic-history-carbon-dating-says-it-pre-dates-mohammed/


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August 31, 2015, 06:48:28 PM
 #2




If this book is not a fake I predict a lot of people will try to destroy it... And by people I do not mean him.......


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September 01, 2015, 05:24:01 PM
 #3

I wonder what would have happened to the academics, had they made the discovery in the ISIS controlled part of Syria. Most probably, they would have been accused of blasphemy, and then stoned to death. I just hope that these researchers will be safe from any death threats and suicide attacks. However, I am worried, as England is the same country which has sent more than 1,000 recruits to the ISIS.

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September 01, 2015, 05:37:02 PM
 #4

I wonder what would have happened to the academics, had they made the discovery in the ISIS controlled part of Syria. Most probably, they would have been accused of blasphemy, and then stoned to death. I just hope that these researchers will be safe from any death threats and suicide attacks. However, I am worried, as England is the same country which has sent more than 1,000 recruits to the ISIS.
To this dispute all an atheist might do is comment...

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September 01, 2015, 07:35:42 PM
 #5

Quote

“This gives more ground to what have been peripheral views of the Koran’s genesis, like that Muhammad and his early followers used a text that was already in existence and shaped it to fit their own political and theological agenda, rather than Muhammad receiving a revelation from heaven.

You mean to tell me that religion has been used by these political leaders to manipulate gullible people into doing what they want no matter how stupid it is? *GASP* Who would have thought it?! Cheesy

Yeah, this is going to drive people apeshit if the book is actually real, I too hope they won't go after the researchers, but knowing Muslims they will.
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September 01, 2015, 07:48:27 PM
 #6

Religions must not be subjected to discuss.People can believe into whatever they want.It can be a cow, Jesus, Mohommed or David.The only interesting for me is historical facts.If Koran was written before Mohammed, the history will be changed.On the otherhand the paper can be manufactured and kept till Koran can be written on it.Why?Because paper was a valuable and rare asset (not material) at that time.Paper can be manufactured long before Koran was written on it.The test to be applied to the ink will enlighten the facts.

Even if the ink itself proved to be earlier then Mohammed's birth, we must be respectful to the Muslims.That is what they believe and it does not disturb me unless they are fanatics threatening my safety and liberity.
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September 01, 2015, 08:10:52 PM
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I read that paper and it is super interesting. However the finding is not that it pre-dates Mohamed, rather that the the velum is from about the time of Mohamed and could even pre-date his life.
The problem is that you can't date the text as precisely as the velum. It could be that the velum was written on and then washed for reuse later on. This was not an uncommon practice when velum was super expensive. Many of the worlds ancient documents are being looked at again to reveal older books which have been written over.
Another possibility is that the teachings of Mohamed were written down right away during his lifetime. The dates do support this and it is considered the most likely scenario. This would also account for how closely the modern Koran and this one correlate. Before it was always assumed that the Koran was an oral tradition until the times of the Caliphates.
Lastly, the most intriguing idea is that Mohamed was working from an earlier, now lost, religious tradition. That would be big news and would cause historians to rethink the whole story of the founding of Islam. There is not a lot known about who desert tribes in Arabia were worshiping. They are thought to be animists and polytheists based on the stories of the Kaba. Prior to Islam the Kaba was a structure that contained a pantheon of local Gods and was a sort of no violence zone where people and Gods could meet. Perhaps elements of several of these religions were combined to accommodate their beliefs and bring in new followers?

That worked for Christianity throughout it's expansion. You worship a mother Goddess? No problem, here is holy mother Mary. Use to worshiping different Gods for various tasks? Meet the saints! There is one for any need you have.  It would be fascinating to find that happening in Islam as well. It would also help explain it's rapid adoption throughout the ancient world.

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September 01, 2015, 11:05:05 PM
 #8

Religions must not be subjected to discuss.People can believe into whatever they want.It can be a cow, Jesus, Mohommed or David.The only interesting for me is historical facts.If Koran was written before Mohammed, the history will be changed.On the otherhand the paper can be manufactured and kept till Koran can be written on it.Why?Because paper was a valuable and rare asset (not material) at that time.Paper can be manufactured long before Koran was written on it.The test to be applied to the ink will enlighten the facts.

Even if the ink itself proved to be earlier then Mohammed's birth, we must be respectful to the Muslims.That is what they believe and it does not disturb me unless they are fanatics threatening my safety and liberity.


True regarding the paper and the ink. The voynish manuscript is a good example. If more than one koran, as old as this one, are discovered, then it will be proof.

http://phys.org/news/2011-02-experts-age.html


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September 02, 2015, 09:14:38 AM
 #9

I think that such an important document should be thoroughly checked and analyzed by leading experts.
There have already been examples of recent religious books take over some elements of the old religious books.
Koran also took some stories from Bible and probably it is possible that Koran used some customs and traditions (even religious stories) of the area where Islam originated.
In this way, perhaps Muhammad wanted to find easier way to reach new followers.
This is potentially a very explosive material and should be left to experts to verify its authenticity, and not to allow religious and political leaders to take advantage of this discovery for their own purpose.

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September 02, 2015, 01:48:20 PM
 #10

I think that such an important document should be thoroughly checked and analyzed by leading experts.
There have already been examples of recent religious books take over some elements of the old religious books.
Koran also took some stories from Bible and probably it is possible that Koran used some customs and traditions (even religious stories) of the area where Islam originated.
In this way, perhaps Muhammad wanted to find easier way to reach new followers.
This is potentially a very explosive material and should be left to experts to verify its authenticity, and not to allow religious and political leaders to take advantage of this discovery for their own purpose.



The Bible is 66 books tied together. The koran is one book. That is the truth of the koran. You cannot find any element found prior to this event. The angel gabriel would not have wasted its time and would have just told mohamed what books to read...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%27s_first_revelation

So it is impossible to have a half written koran before the koran...

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?


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September 02, 2015, 01:54:40 PM
 #11

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.

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September 02, 2015, 02:14:38 PM
 #12

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.


Was that koran found a true koran or not?


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September 02, 2015, 02:21:08 PM
 #13

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.

Was that koran found a true koran or not?

I bet that will be hard to answer. kinda like which of these is the true Bible?
https://www.bible.com/versions
And this is only a partial list that does not include my choice, an ancient Aramaic version.

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September 02, 2015, 03:08:24 PM
 #14

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.


Was that koran found a true koran or not?
Muhammad allegedly received parts of the Qur'an via the angel Gabriel, and there is one original in heaven, which was (allegedly) revealed perfectly intact. Nobody "found" the book laying around, it's not like mormonism where the book was found underneath a rock.


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September 02, 2015, 03:10:57 PM
 #15

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.

Was that koran found a true koran or not?

I bet that will be hard to answer. kinda like which of these is the true Bible?
https://www.bible.com/versions
And this is only a partial list that does not include my choice, an ancient Aramaic version.
The bible differs from the Qur'an in many ways. The bible was written by people inspired by God, but the Qur'an is supposed to have been made by Allah himself, and sent down to Muhammad intact via the angel Gabriel.

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September 02, 2015, 03:36:34 PM
 #16

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.

Was that koran found a true koran or not?

I bet that will be hard to answer. kinda like which of these is the true Bible?
https://www.bible.com/versions
And this is only a partial list that does not include my choice, an ancient Aramaic version.
The bible differs from the Qur'an in many ways. The bible was written by people inspired by God, but the Qur'an is supposed to have been made by Allah himself, and sent down to Muhammad intact via the angel Gabriel.


Thus finding a koran, even an untrue koran, before the event of the angel gabriel is impossible...


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September 02, 2015, 03:46:55 PM
 #17

Carefully with that radiocarbon dating. Carbon dating isn't really accurate. 40-50 years diversion can easily occur. This stuff wasn't found in a sealed tomb in some remote place, untouched for centuries, but in Birmingham where "old coal" been burnt for centuries in large quantities, so it might got contaminated.
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September 02, 2015, 05:10:40 PM
 #18

Of course I am not a muslim and maybe there are 1000's variations of the koran...?
There are probably thousands of variations of the Qur'an, but in accordance with Islamic beliefs there is only one true Qur'an. That is why there has been many disputes about whether or not a translated Qur'an is the true Qur'an.

Was that koran found a true koran or not?

I bet that will be hard to answer. kinda like which of these is the true Bible?
https://www.bible.com/versions
And this is only a partial list that does not include my choice, an ancient Aramaic version.
The bible differs from the Qur'an in many ways. The bible was written by people inspired by God, but the Qur'an is supposed to have been made by Allah himself, and sent down to Muhammad intact via the angel Gabriel.

Obviously the angel Gabriel may have been partying, sunning on the beach, and engaging in countless other fun activities for a century or two before getting around to doing the job he was sent down for.  You know he had a round trip ticket.  You just don't know the dates.
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September 02, 2015, 06:01:43 PM
 #19

Carefully with that radiocarbon dating. Carbon dating isn't really accurate. 40-50 years diversion can easily occur. This stuff wasn't found in a sealed tomb in some remote place, untouched for centuries, but in Birmingham where "old coal" been burnt for centuries in large quantities, so it might got contaminated.


Then the carbon dating data would point to a period after 1815, not before the birth of mohamed, when, I believe, few american indians would be using coal for their iron horses...



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September 02, 2015, 08:20:12 PM
 #20

Fanatics of nearly all religions kill the others since they do not accept their absolute true.There may be angels, devils etc or all of them may be made up.

Is it important if there is a logical evidence for Gabriel's existence? For me no.Carbon halving test, is it so accurate?It is accurate.If you study religion history, you will find out that prophet Abraham had established mono god religion thousand of years before Jesus, David and Mohammed.Again, there was a (prophet) Muslim lived in Yemen (Muslim is the source of word muslim).
The stories of all Jews,Christians and Mohemmedeans resemble.This is because there is only one fact or greed for many followers influencing other religions.Still the only important thing is respect.People belive in Qoran.If they believe, everybody must be respectful.On the otherhand if you are a historian, you can use any test or search every bit of clue to reach the absolute truth.
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