The state of crypto - The only serious thread on the subforum

[r0ach]

The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms (Bitshares, Ethereum, etc) like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.

Bitshares always assumed that the value of BTS doesnt come from being money itself or "digital gold"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DAC/Distributed_Autonomous_Company

If your consensus mechanism is relatively bulletproof, which I believe DPoS now is considering you can specify how many delegates you require for a transaction instead of just 51, then the native currency is obviously going to have large value by default.

I haven't watched all of them, but the best Larimer video is probably the 4 minute one below.  It's like watching a recreation of NASA worker from the 70's, complete with identical outfit and all.  Try not to drool at the screen too much, Kelsey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBlAVeVFWFM

[delulo]

The other advantage is that even if Bitcoin was to crash to nothing, 2.0 platforms (Bitshares, Ethereum, etc) like this can blend in with traditional products traded on Wall Street and continue to have value if cryptocurrency is no longer trusted as a store of value in the fallout.  The native currency would obviously still have value being a part of the platform itself.

Bitshares always assumed that the value of BTS doesnt come from being money itself or "digital gold"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZT9ICMfUDjk

http://wiki.bitshares.org/index.php/DAC/Distributed_Autonomous_Company

If your consensus mechanism is relatively bulletproof, which I believe DPoS now is considering you can specify how many delegates you require for a transaction instead of just 51, then the native currency is obviously going to have large value by default.

I haven't watched all of them, but the best Larimer video is probably the 4 minute one below.  It's like watching a NASA worker from the 70's, complete with identical outfit and all.  Try not to drool at the screen too much, Kelsey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBlAVeVFWFM

I didn't understand you argument there. Can you expand?

I predict the 70's style will be a big advantage to make this go viral on social media at some point ("crazy scientist created Bitcoin successor").

[r0ach]

I didn't understand you argument there. Can you expand?

Most people make the argument that a block chain is useless without a native currency, as Smooth has already done so in this thread.  Bitshares has/is a native currency, so it's not a drawback.

[delulo]

I didn't understand you argument there. Can you expand?

Most people make the argument that a block chain is useless without a native currency, as Smooth has already done so in this thread.  Bitshares has a native currency, so it's not a drawback.

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

[r0ach]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

"The blockchain" is nonsense without a native currency. Even PoS requires the ability to issue native tokens in order to incentivize people to do it (and even then in current PoS systems, many don't even bother). Hash chains (which is what you are left with if you remove the native issuance) are nothing new and not particularly interesting.

[smooth]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

[sidhujag]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

[smooth]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

[delulo]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

These assets on NXT dec. exchange are traded on chain...

[smooth]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

These assets on NXT dec. exchange are traded on chain...

Yes I understand that. What I mean is that the value is off-chain. If you have some venture that issues shares on Nxt, you can move those shares to another platform without any effect on the underlying venture.

In order for a chain to have value it has to be the chain itself that is valued, not claims on external assets that happen (today) to be traded on that chain. At least to a large extent; being used as a platform does give the chain itself some value, but it is a tiny fraction of the asset value.

[smoothie]

...

C)  Still has large PoW mining facilities to be taken over or regulated by government, except in this case it's even worse of a problem than Bitcoin.  Each mining datacenter would almost inevitably be labeled as a money laundering facility by governments.  First world Cryptonote mining centers might be shut down completely, leaving only some guy in the Congo mining, which could then be easily brute force attacked by state or free lance actors.  Maybe first world mining would continue, just not in datacenters, and would be the equivalent of getting caught with a marijuana farm by the police after they notice your electric bill.

...

Really? PLEASE EXPOUND WITH LINKS AND VERIFIABLE FACTS OF THIS CLAIM.

What large PoW mining facilities for Monero exist?

As far as I know there are very little if none that are "large".

Botnets are not large mining facilities that can be shut down easily.

No Cryptonight ASICs on the horizon (not that there couldn't be one made) currently.

Not sure how much more efficient a Cryptonight ASIC would be over a GPU or CPU.

[smooth]

Botnets are not large mining facilities that can be shut down easily.

Indeed they are pretty much the opposite of something that is going to be successfully shut down or even regulated by the government any time in the foreseeable future. If anything that is a lot more like the pot grows mentioned in the OP, which to me seems like close to a best case for decentralized PoW mining. (I'm not sure whether that is better or worse than end users just running a mining client like Bittorrent, but it seems close.)

[smoothie]

Someone linked this in an XMR thread, probably bullish for crypto in general as people try to avoid more inflationary government "coins":

http://yournewswire.com/denmark-becomes-first-country-to-ban-cash/

Situation for Monero looking kind of blah at the moment, but as everybody knows, someone like Rptiela can just double it's price at any time:

Halftime is kind of a milestone.
Soon we will see if Monero will get any meaningful valuation or not.
Soon there is no excuses such as "the emission is too high for any higher price". Emission is not going to be high anymore and if the market cap will not start rising during the coming 1 year, it probably will not rise ever. There will be no momentum and then the scenario which is going to happen most likely will happen and the coin start to decline little by little as the "long time holders" start to empty their plastic bags from coins.
There is not much time for excuses anymore. Until these days we have been able to argue that the emission is high - in my opinion it is not that high anymore and especially as there will be only 100 % more coins to be mined (again, excluded the tail emission),

In other news, Bitshares still rising with volume increasing way beyond Ethereum on Poloniex, and any second Kelsey will probably attempt to hand you a brochure for Litecoin for some unknown reason.

Perhaps the price is "blah". But it is important to remember the fundamentals of what is going on here.

I've been guilty of looking at the price of X-coin (any coin, take your pick) and purely judging based on that in the past.

What is very interesting to me are the technological, financial, social, legal, macro-economical, and possibly political implications that are at hand when you have digital currencies that are trailblazing and going into uncharted waters.

This time in history of crypto reminds me of the slow market during 2012.

[smoothie]

Botnets are not large mining facilities that can be shut down easily.

Indeed they are pretty much the opposite of something that is going to be successfully shut down or even regulated by the government any time in the foreseeable future. If anything that is a lot more like the pot grows mentioned in the OP, which to me seems like close to a best case for decentralized PoW mining. (I'm not sure whether that is better or worse than end users just running a mining client like Bittorrent, but it seems close.)

The pot example/analogy gave me a little chuckle.

But more seriously, I see the same as well. What would be the best case for decentralized PoW mining if the playing field as far as mining is concerned is more "level" or "fair" when comparing CPU vs GPU vs ASICs?

Wasn't there some talk some months back about smart mining integration into the client? That did interest me as it would give the end user the ability to mine XMR in the background with their unused CPU cycles at a much more fair rate than CPU vs GPU in many other coins.

It would be awesome if the decentralized structure of BTC or LTC would be constrained to that level playing field I mentioned earlier.

I was there when LTC had cpu mining. That was an interesting time as I got to get a glimpse first hand how it was to mine with CPUs as opposed to using my gigantic bitcoin mining rigs at the time.

Is there any site or application that is tracking the current number of monero nodes (full nodes) that are on the network?

[smooth]

Wasn't there some talk some months back about smart mining integration into the client?

Yes that is still planned, probably in the next full release after the one that is coming up now.

Is there any site or application that is tracking the current number of monero nodes (full nodes) that are on the network?

This site (link below) tries to track them but has issues with part-time nodes, and the site itself seems to be down right now. The best estimate seems to be 50-100 full time, several hundred part-time but up regularly. I'm sure there are more that are very part time, brought online only when people want to transact or check balances.

Hopefully that number will increase significantly in the future with smart mining (it is intended to minimize its resource footprint to encourage, or at least not discourage, people to leave it running in the background like a Bittorrent client) and some other things that are in the works.

http://cucjrcntebdskoljhpxj4xc3bmietslv7nfg5uy7itgrbgppcb6q.b32.i2p.us

[sidhujag]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

You mean the MPAs that are on bitdhares relying on pricefeeds derive their value in external entities outside the chain meaning the system by in large which uses it is useless if those external entities become useless or are regulated for use in the system?

But you do have UIAs which aren't based on feeds and ethereum ? There are no oracles in that one or price feeds gas is a market for fees how is that offchain? I don't see how either are relying on offchain for "most of their  value"

As far as I understood.. Fiat pegs are generally used to achieve network affect and thereafter if these cryptos become usable by avg joe then there is a push towards pegging to other cryptos instesd and perhaps by then there will be atomic transactions implemented anyway so only real thing you would peg to is gold or something a prediction market may need.

[ArticMine]

...
The pot example/analogy gave me a little chuckle.

But more seriously, I see the same as well. What would be the best case for decentralized PoW mining if the playing field as far as mining is concerned is more "level" or "fair" when comparing CPU vs GPU vs ASICs?
...

Space heating. It could also include heating such things as swimming pools, greenhouses, even domestic hot water. Pot is not a good example since it is typically done in a clandestine manner and the need is more for light rather than heat alone. In a jurisdiction where it is legal a greenhouse full of pot could work. The reason space heating works is because the heat only has more value than the electricity consumed becasue it is cheap to distribute electricity but next to impossible to distribute heat.

[smooth]

I skimmed the thread but didn't find the argument. Can you point me to it or rephrase it?

He was talking about something kind of off-topic because everything listed in the original post has/is it's own native currency:

Somewhat, except to the extent that some of the use cases of the coins listed there seem to revolve primarily around off-chain assets. A blockchain that relies on that for most of its value is probably doomed. Merely "having" a native currency isn't enough if the native currency is only of incidental significance.

I don't know to what extent this applies to the coins listed in the OP. It seems some of that will have to play out in the market and while we might have opinions on how that will occur, most (if not all) of those opinions will probably be wrong.

which coin uses offchain assets?

Nxt as presently used would be one example (included within OP under PoS). As I understand it (and correct me if I'm wrong), most of the value is presently accounted for via the asset exchange (as opposed to the the native currency being a store of value or used transactionally)

Bitshares and Ethereum are both "platforms" to some extent, which means whether they are relying on offchain assets for most of their value is more of a practical question that will have to play out over time.

You mean the MPAs that are on bitdhares relying on pricefeeds derive their value in external entities outside the chain meaning the system by in large which uses it is useless if those external entities become useless or are regulated for use in the system?

No, I wasn't referring to pegged assets, but to external assets (i.e. claims on some external entity, such as a business, development project, service, etc.). Pegged assets are a different question which has its own set of issues, but not the same ones necessarily.

[kelsey]

so travelling around some communities its interesting to see various alts evolve, problem i see is most are evolving the exact same way.

like all the 2013 coins that went POS to stay relevant 

anyone care to state some old alts of bitcoin/litecoin, that have gone their own path and done something unique, or solved an issue you yourself had with bitcoin?

[sidhujag]

so travelling around some communities its interesting to see various alts evolve, problem i see is most are evolving the exact same way.

like all the 2013 coins that went POS to stay relevant  

anyone care to state some old alts of bitcoin/litecoin, that have gone their own path and done something unique, or solved an issue you yourself had with bitcoin?

Yes we were using coloured coins to do services in syscoin and now are going turing complete to do the same services and more. We are issuing a new token on ethereum for this like augur... Also it's possible to be turing complete on Bitcoin clone via AT which will open many doors and I will probably make this happen soon.
Syscoin is scrypt merge mined pow.

Currently main target is a decentralized marketplace as we have become experts in that. Once turing complete we can do many other things.