ion discussion

[ion.cash]

I wrote this...

That's clearly not the case since the block rewards go to zero and the bigger question is whether there would even be enough PoW, not whether there would be too much.

The concern over PoW going gray goo over all the world's power is based on the bizarre premise of moonstruck fanatics that it becomes the world reserve currency tomorrow, despite not even being able to figure out how to scale above 5-7 tps. After a few more block halvings this would not be the case at all.

This is why being able to objectively filter 25 - 33% selfish mining attacks and 51% attacks is so critical. Satoshi's design can not do it. Mine can.

With that key improvement, then one can change the way mining is done so that those who are sending transactions are doing the mining, but they don't care about their profitability so then you drastically reduce the electricity used, yet simultaneously make it uneconomic to run an ASIC farm. And pools become irrelevant because no one is mining for profit, rather because they must mine to send a transaction.

So then you have the unbounded entropy of proof-of-work that insures its model of security and game theory, without any of the drawbacks.

TADA.  

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[ion.cash]

Edit: here at 53:30 Daniel explains they are licensing their code:

https://beyondbitcoin.org/bitshares-dev-hangout-bytemaster-stealth-confidential-transactions/

They are building a business model around building software for the coin ecosystem.  This is very top-down and non-network effects thinking. It is far too slow. We need 1000s of developers working in an ecosystem

It seems like a smart idea to prevent a large corporation or financial institution from taking all the work, not utilizing the original system to give it value, and instead building their internal network, exchange, etc, with it.  Anytime you read coin news about banks, they don't seem very interested in doing things like buying coins from miners, they seem interested in taking the work, building their own system on top of it, or selling the coins to you.  I think people are underestimating the highly refined banker initiative to screw everyone over as much as possible.

The correct solution is invent a decentralized ecosystem coin that will be used by millions of people every day.

Aiming lower is slower, lower, and not my style. Then you worry about being pecked off by a larger small bird.

I have produced million user software back when the internet population was 1/10 of its current size.

Sorry arguing that top-down is a correct solution for decentralized crypto-currency is an oxymoron to me. Either we do this right, or why bother even doing it at all.

Besides that is not the reason Daniel is doing it. He is doing it because he philosophically believes in control (and/or like every good socialist he wants to mask his lack of confidence and milking of the market under the guise of forming a cult of "sharing" for as long as all such taxes course through him ... and he probably believes in socialist organization philosophically as if he can give a better result if he can control it more). Steve Jobs was a control freak and his iOS walled garden got destroyed by the more open Android as the following chart shows...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/World_Wide_Smartphone_Sales_Share.png


I've been discussing the issues raised by r0ach and smooth in private messages. And I want to share something I wrote in a private message.

Also remember I want to use this coin. Which means I want to go create services in the ecosystem and earn money on those. Even if for example my designs get implemented by Blockstream, at least I can go create the types of decentralized services and sites that can earn me $millions.

But while getting this coin to the point where it will scale out, I can't be targeting measily $20k to leech on my ecosystem for server infrastructure. If I create a product in my ecosystem later, it will shoot big B2C (to drive more usership to the coin helping the entire ecosystem), not vertical market B2B in a small developer market.

I see marketing idiots throughout this space. This is going to be as easy as taking candy from a baby for me from a marketing standpoint.

 The name vote is already a reflection of my marketing instincts. I will however need to not get in debates, as it interferes with my marketing and causes people to perceive me as overbearing. Rather I think it would be more accurate to say there is too much work to do and it is much more amicable to be relating on production instead of these debates. I simply can't allow myself to get sucked into long discussions. I am the only programmer on the project right now. So my overbearingness is a function of necessity. Let's be realistic. Does anyone have any idea how much work is head of me!

My greatest successes in the past were when I was implementing software because I wanted to use it and solve a problem I had with existing software for my own personal use. I guess because I am very passionate about it when that is the case and I am up close and personal with the issues I am trying to solve.

[Fuserleer]

I've been discussing the issues raised by r0ach and smooth in private messages. And I want to share something I wrote in a private message.

...Does anyone have any idea how much work is head of me!...

I do, and I'll tell you exactly how much....a proverbial shit ton!  And once you've shoveled through that, expect a few more!

If your ambition includes a desire to do it right and there are no actual deadlines (only self imposed ones), then you'll under-estimate the time required for everything.  This is due to you over-estimating your ability to do it in a timely manner and to exacting standards by a large factor.

Personally I think this is fine, a while ago now I accepted that it was going to take time to do this right.  Not only for the quality of the product, but also so I could sleep at night without the concern of "Am I going to awake in the morning and some poor person has lost their life savings due to a stupid bug!", thus I stopped giving estimated launch dates and its now purely moving on "Valve Time" and IRWIR

I too have worked on million+ user projects, but crucially, the failure of which rarely results in the loss of someones livelihood, so corners can (and are constantly) cut.  Even in the case that it could effect some users life in a negative manner, there is usually some form of insurance in place either by way of actual policies held by the producing organization, or the organization itself has deep enough pockets to mitigate any issues as such.

We don't have the safety net above, nor the same as most others cryptos do.  That is, they base a large amount of what they are doing on Satoshi's ideas and have seen that it works and is of sound theory.  We are pushing the frontier with these new ideas and I'd be mortified if something went wrong and I knew I'd cut corners just to rush it out the door.

[ion.cash]

I continue to tease with damned facts...

Any block chain has the problem that a few big players can collude, whether they are large stakeholders or large hashpoolers.

That's true that in all blockchains stakeholders/hashpower can collude

My white paper will be the first to show the above are false assumptions.

I am telling you I am going to shock the world.

I don't do small things. I rock the Titanic.

Call this hype without details. Fine. But I can't let you write fallacious statements without pointing them out.

[OROBTC]

...

ion

Medium-sized ego OROBTC asks (begs) to K.I.S.S.!  Simplicity (relative) is the key to mass-adoption.

[Fuserleer]

More damned facts to correct big egos with big mouths...

Anyone who trust their coins to (very) high level languages like Java (and and its hopeless VM model) deserves to lose all their money.

Anyone who trusts your FUD deserves to lose all their money when you conflate the secure JVM with the flaky Java libraries and flaky Java security model especially the grotesque web browser sand box model:

https://books.google.com.ph/books?id=YMQqZoc6L3EC&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&ots=82VUnh-Gfy#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://threatpost.com/javas-losing-security-legacy/102176/

http://www.infoworld.com/article/2610267/security/patching-has-failed--so-it-s-time-for-java-to-go.html

One doesn't have to use the flaky aspects of Java when using the JVM. For example, the BitcoinJ Android bug was due to an error in the random number generator Android Java library. It had nothing to do with the JVM (virtual machine).

This sort of error proves that at best you are a very junior level programmer, or probably not even a programmer.

Also, you apparently don't understand programming enough to understand that many errors originate from the lack of semantic clarity and high level semantic invariants static type checking that isn't done in low level languages such as assembly, C, and C++. And C++ is one of the most complex, grotesque languages ever with perhaps only Perl and Brainfuck making it look good. And take this from someone who wrote a million user application in C++ and another one in C. I estimate you don't even know what sort of improvements in correctness pure functional programming can provide.

Get off my lawn kid!

Yeah this annoys me greatly!

People regularly confuse Java with JavaShit, and claim the security of Java is rubbish because JavaShits is.  In fact the 2 are VERY different languages, and the only common ground between them is some syntax similarities (but then Java and C++ share a lot of that), and the damn name.

Any and all languages are insecure if the skills of the developer are not up to par.

In fact a very large portion of the worlds banking applications are written in Java, on the front and back end....so go figure.

[ion.cash]

For constant time crypto code, you'd ideally want to go low level. Also for performance critical sections. Use the correct tool for the job. For high level semantic code that doesn't have those those other low level requirements, use a high level language.

You wouldn't dig trenches with spoons. Use a backhoe when you don't need to carve out small areas around sensitive pipes.

[ion.cash]

I missed your excerpt.

Perhaps you should repost that "generous" portion in the OP so everyone doesn't have to DIG for it and play this moving target game with you.

Perhaps you will learn RTFM.

Reading 2 pages of a thread is too much for a prima donna, that is no excuse for you to blame me for not putting the entire thread in the opening post.

I can see we are going to have significant problems with political trouble makers, who have nothing better to do but be lazy and disruptive— apparently intentionally so.

[ion.cash]

You have to trust that the person/node will do the task otherwise there is no point in delegating in the first place.

You continue to ignore information which has already been stated. I have emphasized upthread that the nodes are fungible, replaceable, and unable to monopolize their function. A node that continuously doesn't do its function will simply have removed itself from the network giving way to the other nodes which are doing their function.

I think you ought to just wait until I publish the entire white paper, so the whole thing can make sense to you.

Yup waiting  

Perhaps you should publish all of the available information (without revealing your entire system) to the OP as opposed to cherry picking what you want to disclose and then doing a dance as people's questions come into this thread.

One thing I despise is a moving target in a discussion.

Please make everyone's reading and understanding a little easier by presenting the information at the beginning of this thread instead of as you see fit.

Again you ramp up the pressure even more trying to blame me for you inability to be able to read. You can't even read a dictionary:

You have to trust that the person/node will do the task otherwise there is no point in delegating in the first place. Please see my quoted definition of the word DELEGATED.

You continue to ignore information...

I don't know why you incapable of reading a dictionary properly.

del·e·gate
noun
ˈdeləɡət/
1.
a person sent or authorized to represent others, in particular an elected representative sent to a conference.

[ion.cash]

Oh so now Smoothie has filed a bogus trust claim on my username to try to get revenge. (Click the "Trust" next to my username to the left)

It won't help him escape from the reality of this day.

When a person frames their argument with Freudian words such as "immaturity" and "not humble", they speak about themselves. They attempt to project their passive aggressive psychological illness on others.

It is rather sick to observe. (pun intended)

Edit: appears this behavior of abusing the Trust ratings is being sanctioned by the mods as they deleted my positive rating with counter argument from my long standing username TPTB_need_war.  Perhaps Smoothie has been the one sanctioned to do a demolition job on my coin by the powers-that-be that favor Bitcoin and own this forum. This was expected and it won't help them.

My long explanation.

[LiQio]

kinda like "ion"

added the topic to my watchlist

[suda123]

Recently I announced my rationale to develop my coin non-anonymously, with any anonymity features to be added by other developers later.

The proposed name of the coin is Ion with a capitalized first letter when it can be written with a serif font, e.g. Ion— otherwise ion instead of Ion. For me ion connotes a thing that can conduct a current and be zapped to a destination.

Formerly AnonyMint et al, I expended 2+ years thinking about anonymity designs and recently formalized an unreleased white paper which I think is the holy grail of on chain anonymity. This will be offloaded to other developers, so I can work non-anonymously on this coin.

The current focus of my development on this coin is to complete a novel consensus network design which has proposed the following fixes to flaws in Satoshi’s design while retaining proof-of-work as unbounded entropy[1]:

• Censorship resistance even if mining is entirely centralized.
• Attack-free instant zero confirmation instantaneous transactions.
• Impervious to selfish mining and 51% attacks.
• Transaction rates virtually unbounded by block chain bandwidth and size.
• Resilient against network fragmentation.
• Decentralization of pools and ASICs by making them uneconomic.
• Non-heuristic Sybil and DoS resistance.

None of the above is a joke nor exaggeration. I am entirely serious. My programming background and expertise is documented in the archives of my prior usernames.

Currently unreleased white papers will not be published until this coin is nearer to release to insure these designs are released first in our coin. Thus for the time being I may not be providing more details on how the above features are accomplished.

Soon I will be uploading some code to the internet and will update this opening post and bump the thread. I will also be announcing some bounties in coins for those who want to do development on this coin. I will also later add some information on the targeted launch date and other details on the coin supply and distribution.

So that new readers can digest this thread from start to finish, I will be removing your posts sometimes to incorporate what was discussed into this opening thread post. I will also remove posts which are redundant or otherwise don't add anything useful information. Constructive critical discussion is welcomed.

The future goal is to have a Wiki and incorporate all discussion there. All posts would remain viewable in the Wiki history as they are removed from current versions of the Wiki pages and the outcome of discussion incorporated into the current versions of the Wiki pages. The point again is so new readers can access the information they need.

You are welcome to make an unmoderated thread, but do not expect me to comment there. Bring any issue in this thread if you want me to address it.

[1] My position until I am convinced otherwise is that all non-proof-of-work consensus systems have a bounded entropy (e.g. the total stake and/or any initial seeds used for randomization) and thus their attributes (e.g. decentralization, censorship resistance, DoS resistance, Sybil attack resistance, impartiality) is subject to a game theory which is potentially undiscovered. Whereas, the entropy of proof-of-work is unbounded because it is externally added and the game theory is well defined.

name sounds good senpai!



how to vote pls

also Ion, and I-on thats really clever mmhmm

[ion.cash]

I am sure Oracle.Sun.Java's crypto primitives work very well (until they don't, because 'Oops ZeroDay LOL').

I am not using Java's bloatware crypto libraries! I am writing all my stuff from scratch to make sure it is correct, concise, elegant, clean, and kick ass. You don't realize you are talking to a prolific programmer.

And I already ported Ed25519 from Java to Scala (I2P code).

[Fuserleer]

People regularly confuse Java with JavaShit, and claim the security of Java is rubbish because JavaShits is.  In fact the 2 are VERY different languages, and the only common ground between them is some syntax similarities (but then Java and C++ share a lot of that), and the damn name.

Any and all languages are insecure if the skills of the developer are not up to par.

In fact a very large portion of the worlds banking applications are written in Java, on the front and back end....so go figure.

Please elaborate for us semi-non-specialists.  Are you talking about Mono or what?

I am sure Oracle.Sun.Java's crypto primitives work very well (until they don't, because 'Oops ZeroDay LOL').

For non-performance critical applications in FinTech, Java has a lot of benefits.

Generally its performance for regular operations isn't that far behind C, memory management is much easier and there is no risk of overflows, development turn around is generally faster, it can be securely sand-boxed (if you know what your doing) and it is of course multi-platform in the most general sense.

A lot of the top tier financial institutions spend great effort to ensure that the libraries are clean and bug free....its hardcore.  They generally run custom library repositories that are based on the standard Java, but with improvements where required (the crypto and math libs for example are way ahead of what is in the standard package).  A lot of these improvements are fed back to Oracle/Sun and so make it into subsequent releases.

The guys that work on this stuff are the best of the best, some of which are paid $1000+ per day, which is a small price to pay for the exposure received if something should screw up.  If Java was inherently insecure, it wouldn't be used for anything.

I think some of the misconception comes from the fact that the infrastructure topology is dated, but the software that runs within is very solid.  There are exceptions I'm sure, but what I've seen working in this field in the past, its very clinical.

[arielbit]

i like this guy, he's an artist  ... make an obra meastra

i'd rather boost anonymint's ego than attact it (some people become better in what they do if their ego is boosted - i think he is one them)

we will know the results anyway when Ion is released. and i prefer to be on the positive side.

[asdf55]

Can you reveal distribution plans? You mentioned billions of coins or more, will it be like larger block and than halving after some time or something nethash/diff related?

[traumschiff]

These attacks can be squelched if for observers and peers their system function is verifiable truth, they can prove a trusted reputation, or they can expend or risk sufficient resources which exceed the gain from cheating.

Already asked this, but it didn't get a response, so here it goes again. How are you solving the problem (on zero confirmation transactions) which is bolded in the quote?

[ion.cash]

Can you reveal distribution plans? You mentioned billions of coins or more, will it be like larger block and than halving after some time or something nethash/diff related?

What I appreciate is the interest that has been shown, as it helped to confirm to me that the crypto market is not dead despite the price being down (and I think headed lower before bottoming). Because this has enabled me to gain more confidence that I am not wasting my time coding.

And I have already been contacted by an experienced crypto Java developer, so that meets my goals along with getting feedback on the name.

Other than those welcome successes, I feel shame for the discordant attention this thread has drawn (both shame for myself and for the other parties where we can't have mutual respect) and I want to delete everything and close this thread. I am trying to restrain myself, so I will just lock the thread now and go about deleting my recent posts in the other threads because I feel I have nothing to gain from parading myself around like a clown in a circus.

As for the distribution, I think it doesn't help at all to go into details like that so prematurely. It can surely just lead to more things for people to gossip or attack about and I think it is better that when we are ready to distribute we just do it. The market will tell us if we done our job correctly and if the markets feels we have made the honest and most network effects building choices w.r.t. to distribution.

I think I started this thread because I was excited to share my excitement and find some others to work with. I guess I was originally thinking it would be a community spirit where I would check in every few days and update published code and get some positive feedback loop going with the community. When I played team sports it wasn't politics, but about who could do the best job at each position. We competed to make each other better. We learned to have mutual respect. But I remember that was a difficult adjustment process. At the start, all the guys had some kind of attitude adjustment we had to go through in order to truly appreciate each other and work together as one. I just don't think a community here can work like that. It would need to be more a cult and zombie or speculative pump mass mania effect.

Now I rather feel like hiding under a rock and showing up one day da bomb. Wasting too much time on very draining communication. I think its better to communicate through non-interactive channels, e.g. white paper, website, and wiki.

These attacks can be squelched if for observers and peers their system function is verifiable truth, they can prove a trusted reputation, or they can expend or risk sufficient resources which exceed the gain from cheating.

Already asked this, but it didn't get a response, so here it goes again. How are you solving the problem (on zero confirmation transactions) which is bolded in the quote?

It isn't so simple to explain and would basically tell you major aspects of my design and I already said I am not going to reveal that at this early stage. So I think I just need to disappear for a while. I already got the feedback I needed. Thanks and I apologize for nothing being able to give the complete information now.

[klee]

Don't worry, this is all good if this is about to succeed - it will strengthen the project.
Of course you are only human and you should try to manage your interactions because everything has it's price.

[ion.cash]

Basically it was this young punk who was disrupting everything:

I)  A common complaint of DPoS is that it can't be decentralized because it has the word "delegated" in the title...

Just like when I delegate the transfer of my internet packets to my ISP and all the router hops along the way, thus my participation in the internet is no longer decentralized.  

That is the fabulous logic of Smoothie which he tried to ram down our throat 5 or more times.

As I tried to explain to that young punk several times, if the routers are fungible, replaceable, and can't be monopolized, then the packets find their way to the destination, without need to trust or centralize. Delegation should not be conflated with centralization, nor trust. We told him this 5 or more times, yet he still insisted.

And he claims to be a software developer. I wouldn't let him any where near my code.

By my own profession (software developer)