becoin
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Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
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November 20, 2012, 06:18:23 AM |
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If you remove intangible property from its rightful owner without their consent, with the intent to permanently deprive them of that intangible property you have committed theft.
Stealing bicoins is a theft, no doubt. But it is not that simple, Nolo. The complexity comes from the public/private nature of bitcoin as digital asset. You can not 'remove' bitcoins from its owner because bitcoins do not move. They stay on the blockchain. The blockchain is a public property! Also, who is the 'rightful' owner? The complexity comes from the fact that the private key gives you this right and nothing else! There is no third party keeping records about rightful owners. Remember, the private key IS the right. If you have the private key you have the right! Another aspect is how the rightful owner will prove in court that they are deprived of their private key against their will? In fact, this would be the most difficult practical question to deal with. |
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bitcoinbear
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November 20, 2012, 05:07:08 PM |
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I'm guilty of posting in it, but this whole thread is asinine. Dozens of hypothesis of why stealing bitcoins wouldn't be illegal based on technicalities of what a bitcoin is by armchair legal scholars.
I think in instances like this, people just need to take a step back and think about the purpose of laws, and what the reasonable thing to do would be. Is it reasonable to allow someone to get away with stealing other people's Bitcoins? No. Therefore, a law will be enacted against such theft, if one does not already exist that can be reasonably applied. Whether a law currently exists or not is largely irrelevant - a law (or at the very least, a new precedent by judgement) will be created if necessary to ensure people's bitcoins are not stolen. Laws do not just appear out of thin air by themselves. They require people to write them. We should encourage our representatives to write laws that make it clear that stealing bitcoins is illegal, and have them do it sooner rather than later. |
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justusranvier
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November 20, 2012, 05:18:51 PM |
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We should encourage our representatives to write laws No. |
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bitcoinbear
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November 20, 2012, 05:38:53 PM |
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We should encourage our representatives to write laws No. Could we ask them to clarify existing laws then? Isn't that what they are there for? |
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Rudd-O
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November 20, 2012, 11:47:54 PM |
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We should encourage our representatives to write laws No. Seconded. |
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Rudd-O
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November 20, 2012, 11:49:00 PM |
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We should encourage our representatives to write laws No. Could we ask them to clarify existing laws then? Isn't that what they are there for? No. They are there to prey on you. The whole "representatives are there to write just laws and defend the people" is just an *excuse* to prey on unsuspecting people who believe what these sociopaths say. |
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bitcoinbear
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November 21, 2012, 05:23:59 PM |
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We should encourage our representatives to write laws No. Could we ask them to clarify existing laws then? Isn't that what they are there for? No. They are there to prey on you. The whole "representatives are there to write just laws and defend the people" is just an *excuse* to prey on unsuspecting people who believe what these sociopaths say. Maybe we could ask them to remove the laws we don't like then? |
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Rudd-O
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November 21, 2012, 10:30:52 PM |
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We should encourage our representatives to write laws No. Could we ask them to clarify existing laws then? Isn't that what they are there for? No. They are there to prey on you. The whole "representatives are there to write just laws and defend the people" is just an *excuse* to prey on unsuspecting people who believe what these sociopaths say. Maybe we could ask them to remove the laws we don't like then? You can always ask. Meanwhile, the people who profit from these laws will give them millions of dollars to keep them there. The result will be that the laws will be intensified rather than removed. Say you ask lawmakers to remove corn subsidies (because, uh, HFCS is poisoning people as we speak). The expected benefit for you, when risk is factored in, is on the order of a couple of cents or dollars, for a few hours of your time. Why would you even ask, then? But if you are a corn farmer who depends on those subsidies... well, you stand to lose millions of dollars if someone else asks lawmakers to remove corn subsidies. Millions of dollars. That will surely prompt you to give ~50K to the lawmakers' bribe coffers campaign fund. What do you think the lawmaker is going to do? Do you think he will, on principle, remove the laws? OR do you think he's going to rationalize the corn farmer's corn-pone opinion and make it his own? If you need practical answers to this question, look at the laws regarding corn subsidies today. It's the standard concentrated vs diffuse incentives problem. |
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SgtSpike
Legendary
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Activity: 1400
Merit: 1005
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November 21, 2012, 11:07:07 PM |
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If you remove intangible property from its rightful owner without their consent, with the intent to permanently deprive them of that intangible property you have committed theft.
Stealing bicoins is a theft, no doubt. But it is not that simple, Nolo. The complexity comes from the public/private nature of bitcoin as digital asset. You can not 'remove' bitcoins from its owner because bitcoins do not move. They stay on the blockchain. The blockchain is a public property! Also, who is the 'rightful' owner? The complexity comes from the fact that the private key gives you this right and nothing else! There is no third party keeping records about rightful owners. Remember, the private key IS the right. If you have the private key you have the right! Another aspect is how the rightful owner will prove in court that they are deprived of their private key against their will? In fact, this would be the most difficult practical question to deal with. I completely disagree. I own the bitcoins in my wallet just as much as I own my plot of land according to county records or the dollars in my bank account according to my bank. It doesn't matter that the blockchain is made public. If someone stole my password to my bank account, they might have access to my funds, but that doesn't give them a right to my funds. Neither would the theft of my private keys give them a right to my bitcoins. |
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Rudd-O
Newbie
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Activity: 56
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November 21, 2012, 11:14:30 PM |
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If you remove intangible property from its rightful owner without their consent, with the intent to permanently deprive them of that intangible property you have committed theft.
Stealing bicoins is a theft, no doubt. But it is not that simple, Nolo. The complexity comes from the public/private nature of bitcoin as digital asset. You can not 'remove' bitcoins from its owner because bitcoins do not move. They stay on the blockchain. The blockchain is a public property! Also, who is the 'rightful' owner? The complexity comes from the fact that the private key gives you this right and nothing else! There is no third party keeping records about rightful owners. Remember, the private key IS the right. If you have the private key you have the right! Another aspect is how the rightful owner will prove in court that they are deprived of their private key against their will? In fact, this would be the most difficult practical question to deal with. I completely disagree. I own the bitcoins in my wallet just as much as I own my plot of land according to county records or the dollars in my bank account according to my bank. It doesn't matter that the blockchain is made public. If someone stole my password to my bank account, they might have access to my funds, but that doesn't give them a right to my funds. Neither would the theft of my private keys give them a right to my bitcoins. Well said. While possession is nine tenths of ownership, that other ten percent is god damn important. All too often people think that, just because some piece of paper was written, or because someone gained possession of your stuff, suddenly you have lost any entitlement to keep and protect what was yours. That is, of course, ridiculous, because it's a horrible confusion between what is and what ought to be. |
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legitnick
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November 26, 2012, 01:25:34 AM |
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Only if you get caught  |
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Bitcoin Oz
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November 26, 2012, 01:33:57 AM |
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It might be illegal but theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins. If the only excuse to have a state is to enforce property law what point is the state if that is impossible ?
Illegality is a moot point without enforceability and if people know they can get away with something it will brinng out the worst in humanity.
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bitcoinbear
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November 26, 2012, 05:29:44 PM |
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It might be illegal but theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins. If the only excuse to have a state is to enforce property law what point is the state if that is impossible ?
Illegality is a moot point without enforceability and if people know they can get away with something it will brinng out the worst in humanity.
Could you expand on the idea that "theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins"? What if somebody takes your cash, wouldn't you expect the state to make them give it back? Or if somebody takes off with your car? How is bitcoin any different? |
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SgtSpike
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November 26, 2012, 05:41:59 PM |
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It might be illegal but theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins. If the only excuse to have a state is to enforce property law what point is the state if that is impossible ?
Illegality is a moot point without enforceability and if people know they can get away with something it will brinng out the worst in humanity.
What are you talking about? The court could order them to pay me, and that's that. If he refuses, and his wallet is password protected or otherwise inaccessible to others, then he stays in jail until he changes his mind. The argument might be true that you cannot force a person to send Bitcoins back to their rightful owner if they have a strong password on their wallet, but you can certainly "encourage" a person to do so, and that's a far cry from "there's nothing you can do". |
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becoin
Legendary
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Activity: 3431
Merit: 1233
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November 26, 2012, 06:17:24 PM |
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I completely disagree. I own the bitcoins in my wallet just as much as I own my plot of land according to county records or the dollars in my bank account according to my bank. It doesn't matter that the blockchain is made public. If someone stole my password to my bank account, they might have access to my funds, but that doesn't give them a right to my funds. Neither would the theft of my private keys give them a right to my bitcoins.
You can disagree, of course, but in both your examples (land ownership and bank account) there is a third party keeping independent records about who is the rightful owner. There is no third party in bitcoin, If you have the private key you have the bitcoin. This is why in bitcoin the private key IS the right! |
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Serith
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November 26, 2012, 06:45:26 PM |
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It might be illegal but theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins. If the only excuse to have a state is to enforce property law what point is the state if that is impossible ?
Illegality is a moot point without enforceability and if people know they can get away with something it will brinng out the worst in humanity.
What are you talking about? The court could order them to pay me, and that's that. If he refuses, and his wallet is password protected or otherwise inaccessible to others, then he stays in jail until he changes his mind. The argument might be true that you cannot force a person to send Bitcoins back to their rightful owner if they have a strong password on their wallet, but you can certainly "encourage" a person to do so, and that's a far cry from "there's nothing you can do". It is easy to leave no trace when stealing bitcoins, there will be no one for court to prosecute. Of course you can sacrifice liberty and make every transaction traceable to a person, but the side effects of the cure will be worst then the disease. |
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defxor
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November 26, 2012, 07:36:15 PM |
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You can disagree, of course, but in both your examples (land ownership and bank account) there is a third party keeping independent records about who is the rightful owner. There is no third party in bitcoin, If you have the private key you have the bitcoin. This is why in bitcoin the private key IS the right!
You're absolutely correct, of course. That's why no one has ever been convicted of stealing cash. *sigh* |
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bitcoinbear
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November 26, 2012, 09:40:44 PM |
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You can disagree, of course, but in both your examples (land ownership and bank account) there is a third party keeping independent records about who is the rightful owner. There is no third party in bitcoin, If you have the private key you have the bitcoin. This is why in bitcoin the private key IS the right!
You're absolutely correct, of course. That's why no one has ever been convicted of stealing cash. *sigh* Haven't they? Oh wait, are you being sarcastic? |
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Rudd-O
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November 26, 2012, 09:48:23 PM |
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What if somebody takes your cash, wouldn't you expect the state to make them give it back? Or if somebody takes off with your car? How is bitcoin any different?
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Bitcoin Oz
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November 26, 2012, 09:58:06 PM |
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It might be illegal but theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins. If the only excuse to have a state is to enforce property law what point is the state if that is impossible ?
Illegality is a moot point without enforceability and if people know they can get away with something it will brinng out the worst in humanity.
Could you expand on the idea that "theres nothing you can do if someone takes your coins"? What if somebody takes your cash, wouldn't you expect the state to make them give it back? Or if somebody takes off with your car? How is bitcoin any different? Anyone who has ever been burgled will tell you about waiting 6 hours for the cops to show. The only time I ever got my money back was having contents insurance, not from the state. Now think about how they are going to find some random hacker in russia who steals your coins. Now if you can have your bitcoins insured then and only then do you stand a chance. If you get mugged on the street there is a possibility a camera saw it happen and that the thief is a local. Tell me exactly how the state can do fucking anything at all about stolen bitcoins ? If the only excuse for the state to exist is the protection of property what is the excuse in a world where that is impossible ? |
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