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Author Topic: Make negative trust add units of evil to your IP?  (Read 1025 times)
DiamondCardz
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September 27, 2015, 04:20:39 PM
 #1

Just a small idea, perhaps add a unit of evil for every 2 points negative you are on your trust score (e.g. -10 score = 5 units of evil) - with a cap, probably. That might be something useful to help deter scammers or unsavoury people just a little bit more.

For anyone unsure what units of evil are.

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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MsdnGuru
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September 27, 2015, 05:07:53 PM
 #2

Whats the point of this?

If i switch of my router i get a new ip anyway
Jhanzo
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September 27, 2015, 06:18:39 PM
Last edit: September 27, 2015, 06:36:20 PM by Jhanzo
 #3

I dunno.. maybe it could be useful, or maybe not.

though I think that most scammers, or at least the ones who planned to scam, uses tor or VPN.
and also some people get negative trust even though they never scam anybody. like most ponzi owners and some other people..
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September 27, 2015, 06:46:31 PM
 #4

Whats the point of this?

If i switch of my router i get a new ip anyway

jupp but subnet is still the same

DiamondCardz
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September 27, 2015, 06:49:59 PM
 #5

AFAIK in the current system, a small amount of units of evil is added to the subnet of the relevant IP. I'm not entirely sure if that is true, though, so don't quote me on that. That'd fix resetting the router.

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 27, 2015, 06:55:03 PM
 #6

AFAIK in the current system, a small amount of units of evil is added to the subnet of the relevant IP. I'm not entirely sure if that is true, though, so don't quote me on that. That'd fix resetting the router.

Quoted. Roll Eyes Just kidding.

I'm pretty sure the system works somewhat like that although I've never really gone into the details of it. I think that this would be a pretty good idea myself.

unamis76
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September 27, 2015, 07:38:06 PM
 #7

IP's given by an ISP might be completely different from each other, and scammers/red trusted users might use many IP's, proxies, VPN's, etc... That being said, it would be nice if such a system got implemented. It won't stop anyone, but it will definitely make them slower in accessing the forum, or it will eventually make them more frustrated Cheesy
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September 27, 2015, 07:52:08 PM
 #8

Imagine i'm a roommate of quickscammer
I've always heard him talk about bitcoin
I join the community but i have to pay a massive amount to post just because my roommate is a scammer


Also sometimes ISP's reassign IPs
DiamondCardz
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September 27, 2015, 07:56:26 PM
 #9

Imagine i'm a roommate of quickscammer
I've always heard him talk about bitcoin
I join the community but i have to pay a massive amount to post just because my roommate is a scammer

This is already a "problem" if your roommate happens to be banned multiple times for, say, spamming signature campaigns. Most people agree that the units of evil system is worth the small slice of people in situations like these. Also, I wouldn't like having a roommate who is a scammer.

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 28, 2015, 05:36:51 AM
 #10

AFAIK in the current system, a small amount of units of evil is added to the subnet of the relevant IP. I'm not entirely sure if that is true, though, so don't quote me on that. That'd fix resetting the router.
According to this, units of evil are give to the subnet of your IP address each time someone is banned who has used such subnet anytime in the past. Although that somewhat contracts this post by TF that says that IP's used by someone who is banned get larger amounts of Evil, while subnets get smaller amounts.

You only need to pay a fee if you have 1 or more unit of evil. It is interesting to note that 53% of new users have no evil associated with their registration IP address, and an additional 35% (for a total of 88% of new users/registrations) have less then 1 unit of evil.


Regarding your original proposal in the OP, I agree in principle that scammers should have more difficulty in registering new accounts, however there are some issues that this may create.

1) This would in effect, cause scams to be somewhat moderated which is something that the forum is strongly against.
2) There are several examples of people receiving negative trust (sometimes from multiple people) when there was not really any kind of scam
3) This will potentially allow serial scammers to avoid detection because they will know right away that they are associated with their previous account who was caught scamming, so they can try new/additional things to avoid detection until they do not have to pay a fee. This is important because it is very rare that very new users will be able to scam, as you generally need to build it up a little bit, which takes time, so while it is being built up, it would be possible for BadBear to send it negative trust to warn others.

 

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September 28, 2015, 06:32:03 AM
 #11

Your trust score depends on the trust list of the person viewing it. I know everyone uses DT but still, it wouldn't be fair.

And it seems quite pointless, the proxyban system is in place to stop spammers, not scammers. Mods have to clean up after the spammers anyway and when they do the IP will get proxybanned.

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September 28, 2015, 02:09:54 PM
 #12

I personally don't think they should be added to scammers.

First, units of evil are given to IPs which have perma banned accounts, however scammers won't be banned, only spammers do.

Second, you said that the user will get evil units according to trust score, but according to which calculation? Everyone use different trust list (with most being depth 2), and hence different trust scores will be shown to different users. So this is not a good method.


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DiamondCardz
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September 28, 2015, 04:57:43 PM
 #13

First, units of evil are given to IPs which have perma banned accounts, however scammers won't be banned, only spammers do.

I don't understand this point, I never suggested scammers should be perma-banned. I'm suggesting a change to the system.

Second, you said that the user will get evil units according to trust score, but according to which calculation? Everyone use different trust list (with most being depth 2), and hence different trust scores will be shown to different users. So this is not a good method.

DefaultTrust. I should've made that clear, but if we're getting into the "blehh DefaultTrust is inaccurate and centralized!!" argument again the thread should diverge.

1) This would in effect, cause scams to be somewhat moderated which is something that the forum is strongly against.

I get your point, but I don't agree this is moderation. This is keeping the trash from returning over and over, and it's not necessarily just for scammers.

2) There are several examples of people receiving negative trust (sometimes from multiple people) when there was not really any kind of scam

If you're referring to false negative trust, then this usually gets sorted out. If you're referring to negative trust that was for untrustworthy behaviour, then that's still fine. My proposal is for keeping the trash out in general, not just scammers.

3) This will potentially allow serial scammers to avoid detection because they will know right away that they are associated with their previous account who was caught scamming, so they can try new/additional things to avoid detection until they do not have to pay a fee. This is important because it is very rare that very new users will be able to scam, as you generally need to build it up a little bit, which takes time, so while it is being built up, it would be possible for BadBear to send it negative trust to warn others.

That is a valid point, but I feel that anyone who would do this is already doing this.

I feel there's a slight conflict of interest in what you're saying, too, due to your own trust score and actions.

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
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September 28, 2015, 05:47:48 PM
 #14

1) This would in effect, cause scams to be somewhat moderated which is something that the forum is strongly against.

Not really. They will just register again with another IP.


Quote
2) There are several examples of people receiving negative trust (sometimes from multiple people) when there was not really any kind of scam

Yeah, that is correct. Number of negative trusts just depends on how popular the issue was rather than how serious it was.


Quote
3) This will potentially allow serial scammers to avoid detection because they will know right away that they are associated with their previous account who was caught scamming, so they can try new/additional things to avoid detection until they do not have to pay a fee. This is important because it is very rare that very new users will be able to scam, as you generally need to build it up a little bit, which takes time, so while it is being built up, it would be possible for BadBear to send it negative trust to warn others.

hmm, that is a valid point. Smiley
UserVVIP
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September 28, 2015, 07:19:46 PM
 #15

Can someone please explain what a unit of evil is?

I have no clue.
DiamondCardz
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September 28, 2015, 07:24:00 PM
 #16

Can someone please explain what a unit of evil is?

Dude,


When you actually read the OP, it's amazing what you find, right?

I'm dabbling in Bitcointalk again - I won't be making trades with people. If I try to trade with you, ask for a signature from my address 171717... which I have had control of since about 2015. If I can't provide it, I might have been hacked.
Athertle
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September 28, 2015, 07:25:33 PM
 #17

Can someone please explain what a unit of evil is?

I have no clue.

Instead of posting your confusion, it's a relatively easy task to literally read the original post. It's okay that you didn't read the following posts, but can you at least read the OP?


EDIT: didn't see your post above mine, Diamond. Smiley

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September 29, 2015, 05:48:05 PM
 #18

I'm just wondering if the IP that I used when I registered this account contains some units of evil? As far as I know, I had to pay 12k satoshis to post and freely discuss with the community. So if that's the case, that means any IP and subnet mask--be it from household connections or anything--could somehow be used by other people connecting through a VPN and avoid the fee if they wanted? Also, I'm kinda confused with the Units of Evil thread that you have just linked. Sad

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September 29, 2015, 06:19:32 PM
 #19

I'm just wondering if the IP that I used when I registered this account contains some units of evil? As far as I know, I had to pay 12k satoshis to post and freely discuss with the community. So if that's the case, that means any IP and subnet mask--be it from household connections or anything--could somehow be used by other people connecting through a VPN and avoid the fee if they wanted? Also, I'm kinda confused with the Units of Evil thread that you have just linked. Sad

If you had to pay 12k satoshi it means your IP got evil points when you registered. Either directly or because its part of a subnet where another IP got evil points. E.g. any x in 10.10.10.x gets evil points if 10.10.10.10 is a bad spammer. Now if you create an account via IP 10.10.10.11 you have to pay a small fee to lift the proxy ban. That does not clear the evil points for the IP or network though. They decay over time. Thus if you created another account right after paying the fee you would have to pay the fee again for the 2nd account.
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September 30, 2015, 02:03:10 AM
 #20

Although that somewhat contracts this post by TF


Hmm you sure to remember a lot of what TF says.

Why is that?  Wink


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