Dash Codename Evolution

[TPTB_need_war]

Lending Dash from the masternodes who are accumulating all the coins over time (because the interest rates paid are higher than the debasement rate) could probably drive more usership which might expand network effects value, but the problem is that interest rate paid to masternodes must be less than the debasement rate otherwise mathematically eventually all loans can't be paid back (eventually everything loaned is for making interest payments then the Minsky Moment arrives if not sooner due to stampede of confidence).

You have indicated how Dash could basically become the same fiat economy we've always had, where a group of insiders leech away our production on the debasement-debt hamster wheel.

I may be wrong, but I tend to think that most people entered crypto not only to make a buck, but also because they really want a new paradigm of decentralized, permission-less commerce and not an extension of the debt-debasement hamster wheel society is stuck in. Thus I tend to think most users (and thus network effects) are only going to get really excited about a design that doesn't have anything like a masternode or a delegated-proof-of-share paying an inordinate interest rate to those who can amass large quantity of coins to be one of the masternodes or delegates. For example even though PoW encourages centralization via mining pools, these pools don't earn incredible returns because this is a competitive market where any miner can choose any pool they want at any time. Whereas these masternodes and delegates design take a finite resource of the coin and use that to leech over time all the coins to those who were in this preestablished position (whom ever got the instamine, and I am not going to point fingers, let the SEC do that which I expect they may in due time or not if the culpable parties are also insiders from the financial industry).

Note it is possible to lend any crypto coin, but this is different from lending a coin where the insiders get replenished with all the coins over time. That is a Too Big To Fail model. It is the same model we have that is destroying our society. Debt default losses are socialized and paid by everyone, while the insiders keep getting fatter and fatter. Thus I entirely expect the wider crypto market to reject Dash and it has no chance in hell of becoming the leader for a new paradigm of block chaining scaling.

Also as I said, afaics Evan is bloating the block chain, while increasing instant TPS. The block chain still have to keep up with this proliferation of signatures (N x number of inputs more) which is unscalable decentralized (the problem Bitcoin is facing now but Dash doesn't have this problem yet because user adoption is no where near Bitcoin's modest adoption).

Do you really think Dash will become widely adopted for micropayments with these issues? Okay I hope to shut up now.

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[BagHolder010]

Kind of crazy folks are saying the masternodes are centralised though, there's over 3000 of them now and its growing all the time.

Go waste gamble on Monero Dice since this is the only thing you're good at over there.

Monero haters with no good but to cry*p*to here...should at least work on ur coin instead. Dash is way above you it is not the reason why ur doing so shitty on the marketcap...maybe it's because u and ur developers wasting time on forums and not doing any marketing *Unless you call spreading flyers on DASH presentations is actually PR/Marketing LOL* OR any development so you cry out loud on anything Evan and he's team does I bet if Evan says tomorrow I'll do xyz you will still be here saying NOOOO you can't do this because because ...we jealous.

[othe]

Kind of crazy folks are saying the masternodes are centralised though, there's over 3000 of them now and its growing all the time.

Go waste gamble on Monero Dice since this is the only thing you're good at over there.

Monero haters with no good but to cry*p*to here...should at least work on ur coin instead. Dash is way above you it is not the reason why ur doing so shitty on the marketcap...maybe it's because u and ur developers wasting time on forums and not doing any marketing *Unless you call spreading flyers on DASH presentations is actually PR/Marketing LOL* OR any development so you cry out loud on anything Evan and he's team does I bet if Evan says tomorrow I'll do xyz you will still be here saying NOOOO you can't do this because because ...we jealous.

i would just laugh about it if this wasn´t soooo sad  -->

I think each person needs to decide whether you/they are investing long term or trading short term.  If you are investing long term, then you cant react to every small piece of news,  that is probably going to hurt you, don’t react emotionally to what you read in the forums. Assess the situation and then respond, yes we are now open source, and someone found a way to skew the masternode payments in their favor and will probably make 100 or 200 DRK out of that, the problem has a very limited scope and is not worth reacting to, is not threatening to the network at all.  Evan will patch it and we move on. Only consequence a few masternodes will miss some payments while the patch is deployed, why is it such a big deal?

There is a new solution for payments already on testnet, this issue is really contained, it looks like someone will get a new PS4 out of it or something. Is that reason to dump your 100K investment? Think more before you act.

Fairly sure BagHolder010 doesn't really have a 100K investment.

I am sure you are correct, I was just putting some perspective out there for lurking investors and newcomers.

Please buy my order at .02 Mintpal because I am FAIRLY  sure you won't. I would be happy to get my BTC's back even thou BTC prices are down.

Another annoying delusion that people seem to keep sprouting on here is the "just wait" mentality, or "to the moon". As though we're always just moments away from some huge price surge or mass adoption.

Get real. It's a fallacy and you're living in dream land.

Every top cryptocurrency has done nothing but decline the entire year of 2014. That's the reality. There is less steam now then there was last Christmas and most that steam last Christmas was a bubble instigated by the Chinese.

Just my take on the situation

I look at it the same way but I'm stuck lol. I see the same people here talking and talking and most of them bought at what half a dollar? I've spent over $150,000 when price was above $10 because I thought to myself wow this coin actually have potentials because of all these updates from Evan unlike ANY other coin including BTC. I hate it when someone talks immature specially when they write your ignored very silly to me.

I kept asking myself how did BTC go from $5-7 to $30 & then up to $120...To buy 10,000 Darkcoins at price $50 is half million dollars. Who do you think needs Darkcoin more than the Chinese now, Most of us here live in Europe or NA and most of us don't have issues with showing our money to our governments in fact people here kept saying what kind of cars they wanna buy when price goes up? 

What I want from Evan now is to have a true marketing team in East Asia heavily in China and promote your coin because this group won't take us no where. Plus if Evan can't do the marketing thing let expert do it for you spread out; Evan looks like he's developing inside a basement of he's parents house!


Ohh and Jams  probably Josha since he can't come here again after he's mistake hhhhh

[asepticskeptic]

Dash - Starts with 'D', ends with 'evolution'

Brilliant marketing. Didn't even have to hand you the noose.

Personally, I like Devolution better than Dashed. Little bit more relatable for the rest of the board here.

[toknormal]

Dash - Starts with 'D', ends with 'evolution'

Brilliant marketing. Didn't even have to hand you the noose.

Personally, I like Devolution better than Dashed. Little bit more relatable for the rest of the board here.

There sure are some serious thinkers on bitcointalk 

[iCEBREAKER]

Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.

What a clueless noob!  No wonder you are easy, low-information prey for the DashHole cult.   

I guess you missed today's news about CLTV.  Does Dash support CLTV?  No.  Will it support CSV?  No.

So, no Lightning-type payment channels or Liquid-type sidechains for poor old Dash.

[TPTB_need_war]

Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.

What a clueless noob!  No wonder you are easy, low-information prey for the DashHole cult.  

I guess you missed today's news about CLTV.  Does Dash support CLTV?  No.  Will it support CSV?  No.

So, no Lightning-type payment channels or Liquid-type sidechains for poor old Dash.

CLTV = CHECKLOCKTIMEVERIFY is an opcode need to implement Lightning Networks on Bitcoin.

Hope you read my assessment of Lightning Networks. This will destroy (wreck havoc on) Bitcoin. I hope they implement it faster.

Please do give Gmaxwell more free reign so he can destroy Bitcoin with side-chains and other hair-brained ideas.

[TPTB_need_war]

I'll have a little more faith in your assessments when you actually produce something, we can all talk about the great things we're doing endlessly but for most of us the talk of what we've done would be a hell of a lot shorter.

My development efforts are irrelevant to the argument that LN and side-chains will wreck havoc on Bitcoin. (I edited my prior post)

P.S. when I need you to have faith, then I will need to convince you. I don't need you to yet. Nothing is coded.

[TPTB_need_war]

Even Evan said he is trying to bring it to the protocol level as opposed to masternodes. I think it is too late at this point. His design is probably too far gone to get it to that point without starting completely over.

Why too late? The only coin where it seems to be too late to change anything is Bitcoin.

What a clueless noob!

I explained in detail in private messages why I can be pretty sure that is what he means and documented upthread that Evan is implementing CoinShuffle and will indeed remove the ability of the masternode to spy on the anonymity. We need to be honest here. I am trying to be objective in spite of having some conflict of interest due to developing also a block scaling solution.

Ok, do you have a link?

Already provided it.

[iCEBREAKER]

I'm a long term supporter of Dash and whilst I ceased involvement some time ago for unfortunate reasons I hope the longer standing members of the community know that I still support Dash as a project.

However, the information about Evolution that has been released so far has left me feeling unexcited.  There is no meat on the bones.  I believe that the dev team are saying that further details will be restricted for a while for reasons of commercial protection which they are quite entitled to do. Unfortunately this doesn't quite add up for me.  

I look forward to reading the whitepaper when it is released. As it stands, the information released so far is uncharacteristically vague compared to the innovation announcements that the Dash team have made over previous years.  There are perfectly reasonable explanations for this but for the first time in a long time I'm not completely sold on what is going on.

It certainly took you long enough to notice the things that vertoe called "fishy, intransparent and rely on a single entity."  But better late than never.

As for Evan Scamfield's ostensible "reasons of commercial protection," Nick Szabo already busted that myth, long ago.

         Anybody who
         thinks they can flesh out a protocol in secret and then
         deploy it, full-blown and working, is in for a world of
         hurt."
         [Nick Szabo, 1993-8-23] 

[eduffield]

Hello!

I'm glad to see you're still around and looking at some of the more advanced issues within the space. I'm really liking how you laid out the issues and the trouble with this type of implementation. These are the exact issues that I've been thinking about solutions to over the last year and I finally found a strategy that has none of these issues mentioned.

If you review the quotes of Evan I dug up and if you understand how he implemented InstantX, then you can deduce very obviously how he is intending to implement faster TPS, as I explained. To resummarize, the block chain hash combined mathematically (hashed?) with the inputs to a transaction is used to determine which quorum of masternodes can sign the transaction, then if M of N of them sign, this is broadcast to the block chain and the transaction is considered confirmed even before the block chain has produced the next block. Note Evan specifically stated inputs and not outputs and I assume the reason is so you can't game which masternodes can be the quorum, but then each input needs to reach a mathematically determined quorum separately (don't know if he has realized that yet), and thus the number of signatures on the block chain will increase by the average number of inputs per transaction (multiplied by N!).

Thus the negative implications of this increased TPS and instant confirmations (which will be realized in his design) are as I stated upthread:

Block chain becomes more bloated due to N times more signatures, not less.

However, signatures only need to be stored for a few thousand blocks. There's simply no chance of a reorg rearranging days of transactions unless something went terribly wrong with the network. In that case, the Bitcoin code is actually setup to halt, which is better than having two competing chains for that long. So in this case, bloat is not an issue.

Also, instant transactions are now a natural result of the evolution design, not something build on top as they are currently. Instant transactions built in this way also are anonymous. We're talking about a different technology.

Immunity to 51% attack is an incorrect claim, because the block chain hash determines which quorum, thus a chain reorganization can rewrite which quorum was authorized to M of N sign.

The proof of work hashes we use are buried deeper in the blockchain for Evolution, beyond the reach of chain reorganization. It's also multiple hashes that will decide the quorum structure, we're calling this technology the quorum-chain.

The instant confirmations can not be trusted because if they are on an orphaned chain (not 51% attack but just the normal process of orphan rate or even 25 - 33% selfish mining attack), then they can be reversed.

In Evolution, miners don't decide which transactions are mined, the masternode network does via Quorum technology.

[iCEBREAKER]

Kind of crazy folks are saying the masternodes are centralised though, there's over 3000 of them now and its growing all the time.

Of course it is, but you can join the crazy club of masternodders obeying the church of evan for just 2400 usd currently.
30 % of them are at OVH, 17% at Choopa LLC....

No ponders you called them like Kim Kardashians Boutique stores (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3032841/Kourtney-Khloe-Kardashian-lead-celebrations-DASH-store-goes-online.html),

With DASH it´s even better, the rich get richer and richer as they rake in the most masternode rewards and can launch new masternodes faster thus owning a bigger percent of the network faster and faster, such decentralziation.
Compound intersted is a bankers or dashers wet dream i guess.

Effectively you have a proof of stake system in it´s most pervers form ever.
And with this switch to a PoS system you also inherited all the problems too... in a PoW system you have a healthy split of powers between miners and investors/users/merchants where both have to cooperate or all will lose, you just got rid of it and investors control everything now. congratulations.
What happens if someone confiscated a big amount of BTC or steals them? Yeah really, you are fucked.


 
Let´s not even get into the jurisdical problem running one of those nodes can bring you...

The older ones here know your "masternode" concept already. We called them Supernodes back in the day. Even Skype was sooo cool to use them.
Gnutella has/had (didn´t study it since years) the same flaws.

Anything different than a pure P2P, any model with relaxed rules can and will be used to attack the network more effectively. Randomization is the most important design principle in a fault tolerant p2p network. Some learned it the hard way (Kazaa).

Well done Sir othe; a most excellent debunking of the cargo cult's decentralization myth and cherished golden donkey fetish.

The DashHoles are just making stuff up as they go along.

Case in point, unknown to just about everyone, Masternode payments are sometimes doubled at random.

There's also an Easter egg in the payment calcs, 1/100 chance of receiving a double payment

So much for predictable emission.  Can you imagine a legitmate coin like BTC, LTC, or XMR ever pulling crap like that to tempt gamblers?   

[iCEBREAKER]

i would just laugh about it if this wasn´t soooo sad   -->

I've spent over $150,000 when price was above $10 because I thought to myself wow this coin actually have potentials because of all these updates from Evan unlike ANY other coin including BTC.

It's OK to laugh at BagHolder.  Humor is how we cope with most of humanity's overwhelming stupidity and herd instincts.

The only "potentials" $10 DashBags had was to sink like the Titanic.

As for the 'BTC isn't updated' meme, all I have to say is

CLTV.

When will Dash support CLTV and CSV?  Right after it succeeds where ETH failed?  Only in BagHolder's dreams!    

I can't wait for the Duffsplanations of the form 'Dash doesn't need Lightning or Sidechains, Because Masternodes' to begin....  

[iCEBREAKER]

When will Dash support CLTV and CSV?  Right after it succeeds where ETH failed?

I can't wait for the Duffsplanations of the form 'Dash doesn't need Lightning or Sidechains, Because Masternodes' to begin....   

It already has dumbass, look up.

Offhand capitalization of the word Quorum and making outlandish blue-sky promises of crypto-unicorns doesn't count.

Bacteria have been using quorum sensing for millions of years; Mr. Scamfield didn't invent it, he just made it into a marketing gimmick.

When I said "Duffsplanations" I meant the kind of in-depth hand-waving apologetics which he used to Duff-splain away the insta-mine.

[AdamWhite]

...
Offhand capitalization of the word Quorum and making outlandish blue-sky promises of crypto-unicorns doesn't count.

Bacteria have been using quorum sensing for millions of years; Mr. Scamfield didn't invent it, he just made it into a marketing gimmick.

When I said "Duffsplanations" I meant the kind of in-depth hand-waving apologetics which he used to Duff-splain away the insta-mine.

Why not? Offhand mentions of non-existent blue sky mining hardware worked for you.

LOL - HashFast failed and is being investigated. I guess you anticipate the same will happen with DASH. It would explain why you're so eager to mislead new buyers by constantly spamming DASH propaganda in every thread imaginable. Those bags getting heavy yet?

[TheDasher]

...
Offhand capitalization of the word Quorum and making outlandish blue-sky promises of crypto-unicorns doesn't count.

Bacteria have been using quorum sensing for millions of years; Mr. Scamfield didn't invent it, he just made it into a marketing gimmick.

When I said "Duffsplanations" I meant the kind of in-depth hand-waving apologetics which he used to Duff-splain away the insta-mine.

Why not? Offhand mentions of non-existent blue sky mining hardware worked for you.

LOL - HashFast failed and is being investigated. I guess you anticipate the same will happen with DASH. It would explain why you're so eager to mislead new buyers by constantly spamming DASH propaganda in every thread imaginable. Those bags getting heavy yet?

Of course they are anticipating arrests.  Just look at this feature below included in Devolution.

Development Update - Oct 19, 2015

https://dashtalk.org/threads/development-update-oct-19-2015.6429/

"Merchant getaway support". - is that some kind of organized escape plan and legal fund for when the authorities come calling?

[TheDasher]

And to think, this was an intelligent conversation for a while. And you folks are what our fiat economy is built on? Lol, "the markets". Yeah, they can certainly remain irrational for a long time to come.

Come on.  Lighten up man that's some funny shit right there.  What the hell is merchant getaway support?

[AdamWhite]

...
Offhand capitalization of the word Quorum and making outlandish blue-sky promises of crypto-unicorns doesn't count.

Bacteria have been using quorum sensing for millions of years; Mr. Scamfield didn't invent it, he just made it into a marketing gimmick.

When I said "Duffsplanations" I meant the kind of in-depth hand-waving apologetics which he used to Duff-splain away the insta-mine.

Why not? Offhand mentions of non-existent blue sky mining hardware worked for you.

LOL - HashFast failed and is being investigated. I guess you anticipate the same will happen with DASH. It would explain why you're so eager to mislead new buyers by constantly spamming DASH propaganda in every thread imaginable. Those bags getting heavy yet?

And now we have Adam White the Parasite wanting to get his grubby little hands on my bags. Lol, get a real job.

EDIT: Check this specimens post history, he's some speculators pet FUDmonkey

Actually I'm a real account. But feel free to post any proof you have of this. You won't though, because your only answer to the obvious fraud perpetuated by the coin you're shilling for is to attack the attacker. Good luck with that!

[iCEBREAKER]

...
Offhand capitalization of the word Quorum and making outlandish blue-sky promises of crypto-unicorns doesn't count.

Bacteria have been using quorum sensing for millions of years; Mr. Scamfield didn't invent it, he just made it into a marketing gimmick.

When I said "Duffsplanations" I meant the kind of in-depth hand-waving apologetics which he used to Duff-splain away the insta-mine.

Why not? Offhand mentions of non-existent blue sky mining hardware worked for you.

LOL - HashFast failed and is being investigated. I guess you anticipate the same will happen with DASH. It would explain why you're so eager to mislead new buyers by constantly spamming DASH propaganda in every thread imaginable. Those bags getting heavy yet?

HF actually made (to spec) the ASIC they said they would make (at TSMC no less).  It failed due to external business conditions and litigious scumbags, but not for lack of best effort.

DashHole cult leader Mr. Scamfield said Dash would support I2P, masternode blinding, ring signatures, etc.  When did that happen?

BTC hardware is not relevant here, it's just a distraction being used for the DashHoles' attack-the-attacker cult-defense reaction.

[TPTB_need_war]

Hello!

I'm glad to see you're still around and looking at some of the more advanced issues within the space. I'm really liking how you laid out the issues and the trouble with this type of implementation. These are the exact issues that I've been thinking about solutions to over the last year and I finally found a strategy that has none of these issues mentioned.

Hello Evan! It has been more than a year since we exchanged words.

Aren't you a bit amazed that I can deduce and describe much of your design details without ever being informed of them?  

Last time we interacted, the masternode concept was borne. I wonder what might be hatched during this interaction.

If you review the quotes of Evan I dug up and if you understand how he implemented InstantX, then you can deduce very obviously how he is intending to implement faster TPS, as I explained. To resummarize, the block chain hash combined mathematically (hashed?) with the inputs to a transaction is used to determine which quorum of masternodes can sign the transaction, then if M of N of them sign, this is broadcast to the block chain and the transaction is considered confirmed even before the block chain has produced the next block. Note Evan specifically stated inputs and not outputs and I assume the reason is so you can't game which masternodes can be the quorum, but then each input needs to reach a mathematically determined quorum separately (don't know if he has realized that yet), and thus the number of signatures on the block chain will increase by the average number of inputs per transaction (multiplied by N!).

Thus the negative implications of this increased TPS and instant confirmations (which will be realized in his design) are as I stated upthread:

Block chain becomes more bloated due to N times more signatures, not less.

However, signatures only need to be stored for a few thousand blocks. There's simply no chance of a reorg rearranging days of transactions unless something went terribly wrong with the network. In that case, the Bitcoin code is actually setup to halt, which is better than having two competing chains for that long. So in this case, bloat is not an issue.

So long-term bloat is not an issue by essentially employing the conceptual equivalent of checkpoints. But there is a serious issue with large blocks which Bitcoin is having intense struggle over, as it forces centralization of mining whether you use IBLT or whatever, because otherwise the propagation delay of large blocks leads to high orphan rates and exacerbates attacks vectors such as selfish mining. Since Dash doesn't have any where near Bitcoin's volume, this is unlikely to be real world issue for Dash any time soon. But if we were applying your design to a very high volume coin, then we'd have a problem with this design. I won't rehash all the details about the block size debate. There are ample other threads and news sites to explain about that in detail. Any way, sounds like you don't have to solve that issue before January. You can focus on your other core priorities I suppose, since this issue isn't one Dash needs to address until volume increases very significantly. And if volume if ever increases that much Dash will have a much larger market cap and more reason to invest again in further development.

Also, instant transactions are now a natural result of the evolution design, not something build on top as they are currently. Instant transactions built in this way also are anonymous. We're talking about a different technology.

Yeah it is clear to me how you were creating a unifying design.

Immunity to 51% attack is an incorrect claim, because the block chain hash determines which quorum, thus a chain reorganization can rewrite which quorum was authorized to M of N sign.

The proof of work hashes we use are buried deeper in the blockchain for Evolution, beyond the reach of chain reorganization. It's also multiple hashes that will decide the quorum structure, we're calling this technology the quorum-chain.

Well this means masternodes can plan well in advance if for complex game theory. I haven't tried to work out all possible game theories. But any way as I stated up thread, it is unlikely the masternodes have an incentive to conspire to that degree because for one reason they are paid very well apparently. So although this design doesn't appear to be applicable to a coin that despises the concept of the 50% per annum ROI masternode, it may be (somewhat paradoxically to the chagrin of haters) be effectively "secure" in Dash.

The instant confirmations can not be trusted because if they are on an orphaned chain (not 51% attack but just the normal process of orphan rate or even 25 - 33% selfish mining attack), then they can be reversed.

In Evolution, miners don't decide which transactions are mined, the masternode network does via Quorum technology.

Okay then essentially the same argument again which is that for as long as we can assume masternodes are so well paid that they don't have incentive to explore ways to conspire, then pseudo-randomness can appear to be equivalent to randomness.