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Author Topic: The altcoin topic everyone wants to sweep under the rug  (Read 24090 times)
TPTB_need_war
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October 23, 2015, 02:50:05 PM
 #1

Cross-referencing and wondering why no one wants to rationally discuss this topic?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218269.0

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October 23, 2015, 02:56:27 PM
 #2

As for me, I do not understand those terms. Too technical for me. Also, I am not in the US and cannot really give an opinion.

Hope your topic gets more public, though.

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October 23, 2015, 03:15:04 PM
 #3

Also, I am not in the US and cannot really give an opinion.

I presented details on why I think Europeans and others also are affected. I don't know why Europeans think (if they do so or if not why they are often say it is only a USA problem) they are immune to securities regulation?

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October 23, 2015, 04:51:52 PM
 #4

OP..  Are you a lawyer?

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TPTB_need_war
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October 23, 2015, 04:54:45 PM
 #5

OP..  Are you a lawyer?

No. And I am hoping to get some feedback from those who are. My father is and I spent a fair amount of time reading legal briefs stacked around the house, but I don't claim to have any formal training in law.

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October 23, 2015, 04:55:32 PM
 #6

Cross-referencing and wondering why no one wants to rationally discuss this topic?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218269.0

It's probably because no one gives a shit.

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October 23, 2015, 04:56:26 PM
 #7

Cross-referencing and wondering why no one wants to rationally discuss this topic?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218269.0

It's probably because no one gives a shit.

Yeah I understand the "middle finger" attitude towards government, but what about those of us who don't want to go to prison or get slapped with fines down the line?

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October 23, 2015, 04:59:18 PM
 #8

Cross-referencing and wondering why no one wants to rationally discuss this topic?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218269.0

It's probably because no one gives a shit.

Yeah I understand the "middle finger" attitude towards government, but what about those of us who don't want to go to prison or get slapped with fines down the line?

Stay away from crypto.

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TPTB_need_war
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October 23, 2015, 05:09:08 PM
 #9

Hahaha. Probably reasonable advice. Thanks for the humor and bluntness. Others of us would like to find another answer though, if there is one.

Are you implying you think everyone in crypto is either naive or of a criminal mindset? Or are you implying people are ready to fight their government and are fed up to the point of proactively not caring?

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October 23, 2015, 06:01:10 PM
 #10

Cross-referencing and wondering why no one wants to rationally discuss this topic?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218269.0

2 complex for the average newb like me. You need to dumb down your argument for us average and below average humans. Wink
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October 23, 2015, 09:08:47 PM
 #11

Cross-referencing and wondering why no one wants to rationally discuss this topic?

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218269.0

2 complex for the average newb like me. You need to dumb down your argument for us average and below average humans. Wink

I think the latest exchange between smooth and I there really made it more clear. Try to read again near the end of the thread. We got more directly to the point. Yeah legalese can make a reader dizzy. I think we homed in well on the key two sentences of the Howey test.

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October 24, 2015, 06:24:14 AM
 #12

Hahaha. Probably reasonable advice. Thanks for the humor and bluntness. Others of us would like to find another answer though, if there is one.

Are you implying you think everyone in crypto is either naive or of a criminal mindset? Or are you implying people are ready to fight their government and are fed up to the point of proactively not caring?

If you do not want to get in trouble, just stay away.  It's as simple as that.

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October 24, 2015, 09:36:10 AM
 #13

I have a few random thoughts on this.  

First the government doesn't really seem that interested or get involved to the level of paranoia people have unless people... And a lot of people are outright raped with things that are illegal regardless of crypto classification.  Paycoin, BFL and mtgox.  Their actions seem to indicate that they are interested in prosecuting people for the most famous outright scams to try to encourage a tiny bit of accountability.

I have been overseas for six months in three very different countries and I have an entirely new respect for how the government protects the dollar and attacks those who threaten it.  Foreign entities with monetary policies and domestic entities trying to remain private.

If the government is as bad as you say then if and when they take aim at crypto - the swipe of a pen by some appointed official can and will make things in crypto they want to be against the law illegal regardless of what is / isn't legal now.  You may have the chance to abide by the new rules (report all your Bitcoin keys, etc), exit crypto and pay taxes or become a target.  I'm not sure abiding by current rules is going to save or help much with a government that already is in violation of its own constitution and numerous other laws on a consistent basis.  If they decide to attack crypto on a whole - today's legal standing will not matter.  Crypto will exist inside of their new rules or be strong enough to stand outside of them.  I do not perceive existing laws to be any type of protection against fighting against the USD if the government decides their is a big conflict of interest.

At this stage I think tracking the blockchain provides them with far more value than threats when it comes to illegal activity (or that is their impression)
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October 24, 2015, 12:20:29 PM
 #14

Hahaha. Probably reasonable advice. Thanks for the humor and bluntness. Others of us would like to find another answer though, if there is one.

Are you implying you think everyone in crypto is either naive or of a criminal mindset? Or are you implying people are ready to fight their government and are fed up to the point of proactively not caring?

If you do not want to get in trouble, just stay away.  It's as simple as that.

Well everyone in the USA is on average committing 3 felonies a day just by breathing.

Life is about weighing relative risk vs. reward probabilistically.

Also there is the concept of near-term and long-term. Long-term legal risk is much higher than short-term, but at age 50 I care much less about my long-term risk because I might be dead or too old any way. Also there is the concept/option of changing citizenships after some time. Etc..

As for users of crypto, I would track your capital gains when you are holding it in large enough quantities (e.g. over $600 worth in the USA) and also your income. Report everything on taxes as you are obligated to in your jurisdiction.

But this thread was more about how to single out which coin models are at very high risk of being classified as "investment securities".


Edit: also the law exists to protect the "public interest" (although it may be gamed by the powers-that-be, I am referring to the official raison d'être for law), thus doing acts that harm others in unjustified ways, then expect to incur the wrath of the law. Whereas, if you try your best to really help others and be very thorough with disclosure, then risks of unjust legal culpability decline.

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October 24, 2015, 06:42:28 PM
 #15

Guess I missed that one Smiley Likewise my feelings are amicable and you caught me in a different frame of mind yesterday as I'd got caught up arguing with fools and had let myself get brought down to their level.

Emotions affect everyone and it seems they are always flying high on these forums and the shit is flying all over the place (the more dung the merrier right). Any way, I try as much as possible to keep myself focused on extracting the factual conclusions of discussions, i.e. the useful information that can aid my work.

You'd pointed to Dash specifically at one point and I'd still argue the infeasibility of prosecution on that kind of scale, its at most 3.2k responsible for decision making at the moment but add third party services that allow any amount to take part in an MN and it's potentially every user in the system, add the complications of worldwide distribution, anonymity and hosting in countries with no such laws and its completely impractical to enforce.

One very incriminating question is whether Evan (and any others) conspired to instamine what I understand was basically greater than 50% of the money supply as of the time that the masternodes were created. And thus given the recent chart showing Dash's protocol is paying up to 50% per annum return on the coins locked up while running a masternode, then it means basically their conspiratorial group could control greater than 50% of the masternodes and money supply right now, and thus very much control the coin. If it ever goes to court then most certainly forensic evidence will be applied and I understand some others are fairly certain they can prove beyond any reasonable doubt the culpability. I haven't dug into that evidence so I can't offer my opinion on the veracity of those claims. And going off on that tangent of proving something about Dash is off-topic to this thread.

Notwithstanding even if it was impossible to prove sufficient control over the masternodes by Evan and other conspirators, it would still be the case that Evan and his group used funds extracted from the common share of the tokens in managing the common enterprise and the community follows their managerial control. Thus per my understanding of USA securities law, Evan's group is managing unregistered investment securities and thus are liable to be in prison for a long time. I really pity him at this point. Perhaps he got himself into something he didn't realize and now can't easily extract himself from it. Evan stated that he comes from the financial industry, so one would ponder that maybe he should have known better.

Unless Evan has connections with the SEC and others in the financial industry that can protect him, based on my recent research linked from the OP of this thread, I think he has a world of hurt ahead of him. I do believe the authorities are just letting these scams pile up on top of each other, so they can bring a wave of massive regulation once the economy turns down hard in 2017 or 2018. The authorities will become very motivated once the economy goes south.

I don't personally have any vendetta nor need to bury Dash with my words. You raised the issue, so I am responded honestly as to what I believe to be the facts as I know them.

Again, the SR case was a good example. That was a one-off, the cost of enforcing the law was way too high in both funds and revealing methods so it was more a face-saving exercise than procedure and the penalties and questionable legalities of the case where evidence of that.

What is the "SR case"?

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October 24, 2015, 07:34:19 PM
 #16

Sorry, the silkroad tor marketplace.

Prosecuting Silk Roads was an effective action of warning people that they will be caught doing these things.

The legal specifics of "unregistered investment securities" is much different than the laws that were employed to prosecute "Silk Road".

Proprietors of these suspected or alleged (i.e. not proven in court action) "unregistered investment securities" crypto-coins are much easier to track down and many are already public, such as Evan from Dash and Daniel Latimer from Bitshares. I am not aware of good forensic data on the Protoshares and Bitshares saga (apparently Chinese were involved).

If your point is the users can always move on to another illegal platform since open source is like a virus that can't be destroyed and that it is impractical for the authorities to bring actions against all millions of individuals, I think the authorities want a much more efficient solution and will rather go for some scenario where they just automatically fine your bank account or access you some tax FINRA fine, and if you don't pay they just keep raising the fees and penalties until it is worthwhile to sell you to a Haliburton prison where they are paid by inmate by the government so have a financial incentive to increase inmates and pay off the court system to send them more prosecutions. Westerners are not at all prepared for the reality payback for socialism that is going to slam the door to freedom in their face over the coming years.

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October 24, 2015, 08:14:49 PM
 #17

stan you are conflating issues and glossing over the relevant definition of a "security" in the other thread linked from the OP of this thread. Try to read again my posts more slowly and carefully. I will also make a few more clarifying posts in that other thread.

(not to be condescending, but also no time to repeat myself again)

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October 24, 2015, 09:42:09 PM
 #18

Asking for legal advice on Bitcointalk forums is not a road I'd suggest traveling down.

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October 24, 2015, 09:46:58 PM
 #19

I do believe the authorities are just letting these scams pile up on top of each other, so they can bring a wave of massive regulation once the economy turns down hard in 2017 or 2018. The authorities will become very motivated once the economy goes south.
The simpler explanation is that "the authorities" already have a mole and simply continue to gather evidence. I know very little about Dash, but I remember what happened during the days of "Bitcoin Consultancy" operating in Europe and Bitomat.pl acquisition by Mt.Gox. At that time not even "the authorities" would gather evidence, the regular private gumshoes did, the circle of users was so small.

When both Bitcoin Consultancy and Bitomat disappeared the gathered information was used to close down and prosecute some controlled-substances distribution rings in Europe. Bitcoin acted as a sort of honey-pot, as it tended to attract businesspeople who weren't well-served by the regular banking transfer network SEPA.

Further back in history I remember that some early arrests of Al-Quaeda functionaries were thanks to the secret cooperation of the employees of Swisscom EasyROAM subsidiary.


Please comment, critique, criticize or ridicule BIP 2112: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=54382.0
Long-term mining prognosis: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91101.0
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October 24, 2015, 10:13:56 PM
 #20

Asking for legal advice on Bitcointalk forums is not a road I'd suggest traveling down.

I hope you were not implying I was asking for legal advice?

I am certain that if you review my posts you will find I am discussing my non-expert (layman's) interpretation of securities law as it applies to crypto-tokens with (so far ostensibly although open to further analysis) non-experts. Maybe you are perplexed as to what my purpose could be if not just to waste my time or ask for advice?

Consider that I am talking to users of crypto-currency. Consider I have to build a reputation. Consider I have an incentive to raise awareness on this issue for numerous reasons (one my reputation, two competing coins are mostly all culpable under securities law, etc). Go from there in several directions of motivations...

If your only point was that we are unlikely to get expert advice here in these forums, then my apology for overreacting if you weren't implicating me.

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