Professional trolls

[aleix]

@smooth

I want to ask just one question Smooth; do you think the behaviour of the guy who is controlling "the Dasher" is ok? It is correct to have an account only to FUD and TROLL a project?

And yes, what "the Dasher", "AdamWhite", "Icebreaker", etc (not you) is the worse kind of trolling I ever saw in a forum. And I am 39 years old, I began with an Spectrum 48k. So imagine. 

This is not a legitimate concern or discussion. These people repeat the same topic (accusation, joke, etc) 5-6 times in our thread the same day for months. The same topic! Without discussion. Just to troll. 

It is no necessary to belive what I say, anyone can check:

"Icebreaker" latest posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=17501;sa=showPosts

"AdamWhite" latest posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=216500;sa=showPosts

Here in the META subforum I asked the people and mods to check "The Dasher", because 229 posts all related (even the name is) with the Dash currency is really a not very common experience. All the posts trolling or fudding the main thread or threads about DASH in the alt section. This is a perfect example of the behaviour I want to denunce.

"The Dasher" latest posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=489877;sa=showPosts

The problem is not the topic, it is ok to disagree and say it loud. I think this is good. The problem is to repeat the same 5,6 times a day for months.

And yes this is trolling. And I want to know who is the owner of "the Dasher" account, because I think this guy deserves a permament BAN from Bitcointalk.

(surpringsly, after my accusations in the META section these people are very quiet. The history button and the "latest posts" is still available)


I presented some facts, let's other Bitcoiners and mods decide what's ok or not.

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[worhiper_-_]

You should also consider that there might be personal conflicts of interest involved. IMO this is more common than being paid (directly or indirectly) to troll here.

[smooth]

@smooth

I want to ask just one question Smooth; do you think the behaviour of the guy who is controlling "the Dasher" is ok? It is correct to have an account only to FUD and TROLL a project?

First of all there is certainly no FUD when the posts are clearly factual as the one I quoted was.

I'm not saying I like their style and you know that while I'm also critical of Dash at times, I don't express it in the same manner, but I also don't believe that critical posts are inherently trolling. To allow that argument means that any coin can shut down legitimate criticism by reporting it as trolling, and the rules already state that scams and accusations of scamming are explicitly not moderated.

Some of the particular posts may be. If you can pick out particular posts that go beyond criticism to to trolling then point them out. I pointed out one post from the top of that poster's history that was clearly factual, critical and not trolling in my opinion, but you may disagree of course.

As far as a the number of posts, I think you have to consider the popularity and overall level of discussion of the coin generally. A high profile coin with 5000 pages of activity may get a lot more criticism, legitimately, than a smaller one. But bombing the thread and useless frequent bumps is not okay either. If there is stuff too-frequently being posted without new on-topic content then that is a valid complaint. Point it out, specifically.

(surpringsly, after my accusations in the META section these people are very quiet. The history button and the "latest posts" is still available)

Maybe there was a ban? I know other people (Spoetnik?) have gotten temporary bans for trolling.

I presented some facts, let's other Bitcoiners and mods decide what's ok or not.

Likewise.

EDIT: Again, here are a few more posts all from the very first page of TheDasher's history. I don't see how these different in any significant way from the price speculation, discussion, and opinion (which is explicitly not moderated) that is common on that thread by supporters (the lead developer even posted technical analysis price charts and a bullish trading outlook a while ago):

Shorting opportunity of a lifetime once master nodes start moving to exchanges.

Shorting opportunity of a lifetime once master nodes start moving to exchanges.

Either it will be a race to the exits or some will hold on until it sinks too far.

Over half the dash supply is locked up in master nodes yet the price is falling. Technically that doesn't look good for the future price to me.

Master nodes will be on the move soon.

at least judging by the price..

Good qualification, because if you'd judged by volume you'd see that nobody is dumping.

No, not at all. It's quite the buying frenzy out there.

Here are a few posts that express an opinion. They appear to be original comments, not repetitive posts:

As much as you want, you cant deny benefits of DASH over bitcoin.
The argument that it was instant mine is stupid. So what? Why should I even care?
All I care is the development and progress which is lighting fast!
Bitcoin was solo mined for how long? How many coins does Satoshi has?  

You are not answering the question! What is the difference from Bitcoin being solomined and DASH instamined?
How many coins does Satoshi has?
Does bitcoin price not fluctuate?
Is there no developement? Is it all fake? Is DASH not inovative coin?
The only argument you say is INSTAMINE so what?
Again. Whats the difference from bitcoin being solomined and DASH instamined?

The major difference is that all efforts by Evan since the launch have been dishonest.  Cover up after cover up.  Excuse after excuse. 

On the other hand there are some posts that may well be trolling. This one I don't understand the image (not quoting the big image here):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=421615.msg12819872#msg12819872

These I'm not sure about. They are opinion, but clearly hostile and perhaps intended to evoke a negative emotional response:

As much as you want, you cant deny benefits of DASH over bitcoin.
The argument that it was instant mine is stupid. So what? Why should I even care?
All I care is the development and progress which is lighting fast!
Bitcoin was solo mined for how long? How many coins does Satoshi has?  

You are not answering the question! What is the difference from Bitcoin being solomined and DASH instamined?
How many coins does Satoshi has?
Does bitcoin price not fluctuate?
Is there no developement? Is it all fake? Is DASH not inovative coin?
The only argument you say is INSTAMINE so what?
Again. Whats the difference from bitcoin being solomined and DASH instamined?

What is the difference from Bitcoin being solo mined and dash instamined? You dont even know who is Satoshi!
Here is the birth of DASH https://dashtalk.org/threads/the-birth-of-darkcoin.162/  nothing hidden, all transparent.

Don't believe anything from dashtalk.org that is very definition of censorship and propaganda.  That private website is one huge circle jerk.


That's why members are leaving here and going there.  They won't be exposed to people who don't follow the DASH CULT on dashtalk.org. 

DASH defenders are organizing to defend the scam I see.  All scheming together to find new bag holders.

[aleix]

You think the behaviour of "the Dasher" and others is ok, and I think is not. As I said, It is no necessary to debate any longer. This is an open forum and anyone can check the thread and the profiles to decide.

I can quote dozens of trolling posts, some in only one day published by "The Dasher", "Adam" or "Icebreaker". You are a long time reader of the thread and you know this is true.

BTW.- As you mentioned several times about the supposedly DASH "scam". Let me post some links to clarify some facts for the newcomers (we talked one milion times about it in the past, and will be talking about it in the future, don't worry)

https://dashdot.io/alpha/?page_id=118
https://dashtalk.org/threads/the-birth-of-darkcoin.162

You should also consider that there might be personal conflicts of interest involved. IMO this is more common than being paid (directly or indirectly) to troll here.

Sadly, this is true.  Some people I mentioned are very well known supporters of other coins, coins which are in direct competition of DASH.

[smooth]

You think the behaviour of "the Dasher" and others is ok

Please don't misquote. I didn't say that every single thing about his behavior is okay. I just suggested you should be more specific in terms reporting of actual posts. Rather than claiming "he's a professional troll" (paraphrasing perhaps) which you can't prove (in these sense of professional = paid) and probably isn't true.

I can quote dozens of trolling posts

Dozens may be overkill but you should cite specifics if you have them. As I demonstrated with quite a few posts all from the very first page of his history list (I didn't look any further than that), many of his posts are opinions and on-topic discussion and are not trolling. I also cited some posts that seem questionable to me.

BTW.- As you mentioned several times about the supposedly DASH "scam". Let me post some links to clarify some facts for the newcomers (we talked one milion times about it in the past, and will be talking about it in the future, don't worry)

[links]

That is entirely off topic for Meta. Please refrain. The truth or untruth of posts (including scamming and accusations of scamming) is explicitly not moderated.

Sadly, this is true.  Some people I mentioned are very well known supporters of other coins, coins which are in direct competition of DASH.

Also off topic for Meta unless you can cite specific violations of forum rules. Competition and criticism between coins and otherwise is not moderated.

[aleix]

1.- As I said, 229 posts attacking the same thread and the same topic. Not a single post outside it. Repeating the same over and over.

You know and I know. And the posts history is available:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=489877;sa=showPosts

This behaviour is ok or not? This guy should be banned after 229 posts? Let people read.

3.- You posted several quotes talking about a supposedly "scam". I did not. You are bringing the debate to the meta section. Not me. I talk about trolls.

EDIT: I don't disagree that some individual posts may veer into trolling and those can be legitimately reported as Spoetnik said. That's true for virtually every single thread on this forum. If you think there isn't a lot of trolling everywhere on this forum you need to look around a bit. But many of that poster's posts are just on-topic criticism and it is inappropriate for any coin to expect forum mods censor that (even if it weren't accurate, since accuracy,  opinions, and accusations of scamming are explicitly NOT moderated). Example:

INSTAMINED / SOLOMINED SCAM - READ FOR YOURSELF - DONT GET CAUGHT UP IN THE EXCITEMENT OF THE CIRCLE JERK

1. Within the very first hour over 500,000 coins were mined

2. Within 8 hours over 1.5 million coins were mind, which is most of the instamine.

On the matter of the instamine itself, you are ignoring a whole host of extremely shady practices that surrounded the instamine.

3. The Evan misled people into thinking that the launch would not happen for days (and specifically not in hours), then it happened in a few hours. Considering the 500K number in the first item above, the effect of this "ambush" was enormous.

This is about the accuracy and good or bad name of a project. A lot of work from a lot of people. This is the meta section and some people will read this debate.   

4.- I was answering a point someone said. Can I?

best, 

[smooth]

1.- As I said, 229 posts attacking the same thread and the same topic. Not a single post outside it. Repeating the same over and over.

We both well know that not all -- as in 100% -- of his 229 posts are not out of line. I posted specific posts that are clearly not out of line. For example, expressing an opinion on predicted price action. If that is out of line then the lead developer of the coin doing the same thing is also out of line (in fact neither is).

It is important if you have a valid point to support that point with specific evidence.

3.- You posted several quotes talking about a supposedly "scam"

I quoted specific examples of the account in question having expressed substantive opinions the coin rather than merely nonsense, inflammatory personal attacks, or other actual trolling. That is relevant to your claim that his posts are trolling. The truth or accuracy of his opinions is irrelevant.

That directly refutes your suggestion that all 229 of his posts are trolling. The posts I cited were on different subtopics as well, including price action and the coin having been instamined, so they don't appear to be the exact same content being repeatedly post on a thread in a disruptive thread bombing manner. Though if you have examples of the latter you could post them.

I also quoted some posts which may well constitute trolling and could be reported as such. They're not his entire 229 post history though.

This is about the accuracy and good or bad name of a project. A lot of work from a lot of people. This is the meta section and some people will read this debate.   

Opinions on a coin whether positive or negative, along with the accuracy thereof, are all explicitly not moderated. It doesn't matter whether a lot of people have worked on it or not, nor whether the project has a good or bad name. The moderators don't get involved in that at all.

Q: Why haven't you banned <insert scammer username here> who is an obvious scammer?
A: Possible (or real, not for me to decide) scams are not moderated to prevent moderator abuse. If we start picking out which ones we call "scammers" and ban, we would make a lot of decisions based on biased opinions.

Q: Do you moderate/delete (possible) FUD, accusations and untrue information?
A: No. We don't have enough time to check every single piece of information and verify the validity of the sources. Also, just like scams - too much room for bias and abuse.

However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. Such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report though (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

Q: Someone insulted me. Why aren't you deleting his post/thread?
A: Possible (since we don't have the time or resources to check) insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

If you want to claim that the account in question is posting obviously false nonsense (note the emphasis which is mprep's not mine) and that is not constructive opinion, info, or something else substantial that isn't off topic, then you are going to have to quote it specifically and document it as such.

[aleix]

ok, Smooth. I'm really tired of talking with you. You are like a lawyer, always pointing the irrelevant to distract from the obvious.

Staff and members: read the stuff. That's all. Then act accordingly.  This kind of people (TheDasher) is garbage.

This kind of people are the cancer of Bitcointalk. Please do something.

It is a shame this conversation is not in spanish or catalan. It's like fighting with my right hand behind my back.

[illodin]

I quoted specific examples of the account in question having expressed substantive opinions the coin rather than merely nonsense, inflammatory personal attacks, or other actual trolling. That is relevant to your claim that his posts are trolling. The truth or accuracy of his opinions is irrelevant.

That directly refutes your suggestion that all 229 of his posts are trolling. The posts I cited were on different subtopics as well, including price action and the coin having been instamined, so they don't appear to be the exact same content being repeatedly post on a thread in a disruptive thread bombing manner. Though if you have examples of the latter you could post them.

Even a post that in isolation wouldn't be trolling, can be trolling when taking into account all the other posts the user has been doing, not forgetting the agenda driven screenname. If the post is clearly made just in an attempt to piss off people, it is trolling.

When you try to apply pedantic logic and rules into everything you will easily make mistakes like that.

[smooth]

I quoted specific examples of the account in question having expressed substantive opinions the coin rather than merely nonsense, inflammatory personal attacks, or other actual trolling. That is relevant to your claim that his posts are trolling. The truth or accuracy of his opinions is irrelevant.

That directly refutes your suggestion that all 229 of his posts are trolling. The posts I cited were on different subtopics as well, including price action and the coin having been instamined, so they don't appear to be the exact same content being repeatedly post on a thread in a disruptive thread bombing manner. Though if you have examples of the latter you could post them.

Even a post that in isolation wouldn't be trolling, can be trolling when taking into account all the other posts the user has been doing, not forgetting the agenda driven screenname. If the post is clearly made just in an attempt to piss off people, it is trolling.

There is no such forum rule. The rule was quoted above: "obviously false nonsense"

If forum mods don't want to get involved in judging opinions and scams, do you really think they want to try take into account all the other posts from a user and infer agenda and intent to piss off people, which is largely subjective anyway? I guess it is possible but I seriously doubt it.

[illodin]

I quoted specific examples of the account in question having expressed substantive opinions the coin rather than merely nonsense, inflammatory personal attacks, or other actual trolling. That is relevant to your claim that his posts are trolling. The truth or accuracy of his opinions is irrelevant.

That directly refutes your suggestion that all 229 of his posts are trolling. The posts I cited were on different subtopics as well, including price action and the coin having been instamined, so they don't appear to be the exact same content being repeatedly post on a thread in a disruptive thread bombing manner. Though if you have examples of the latter you could post them.

Even a post that in isolation wouldn't be trolling, can be trolling when taking into account all the other posts the user has been doing, not forgetting the agenda driven screenname. If the post is clearly made just in an attempt to piss off people, it is trolling.

There is no such forum rule. The rule was quoted above: "obviously false nonsense"

I didn't say there was.

If forum mods don't want to get involved in judging opinions and scams, do you really think they want to try take into account all the other posts from a user and infer agenda and intent to piss off people, which is largely subjective anyway? I guess it is possible but I seriously doubt it.

I didn't say I think that.


What I said is that for example if there is a forum for Real Madrid fans, and a Barcelona fan joins the forum with a nick "RealSux", and posts 100 posts how Real Madrid sucks at football. Then one day there is a game that Real loses, and "RealSux" proceeds making a post "REAL LOST AGAIN". Now in isolation, that post might be true and appear as if it was a legit post, but everyone knows it's just plain trolling, nothing else. Pointing out that one post doesn't refute a fact that all his posts are trolling.

[smooth]

I quoted specific examples of the account in question having expressed substantive opinions the coin rather than merely nonsense, inflammatory personal attacks, or other actual trolling. That is relevant to your claim that his posts are trolling. The truth or accuracy of his opinions is irrelevant.

That directly refutes your suggestion that all 229 of his posts are trolling. The posts I cited were on different subtopics as well, including price action and the coin having been instamined, so they don't appear to be the exact same content being repeatedly post on a thread in a disruptive thread bombing manner. Though if you have examples of the latter you could post them.

Even a post that in isolation wouldn't be trolling, can be trolling when taking into account all the other posts the user has been doing, not forgetting the agenda driven screenname. If the post is clearly made just in an attempt to piss off people, it is trolling.

There is no such forum rule. The rule was quoted above: "obviously false nonsense"

I didn't say there was.

If forum mods don't want to get involved in judging opinions and scams, do you really think they want to try take into account all the other posts from a user and infer agenda and intent to piss off people, which is largely subjective anyway? I guess it is possible but I seriously doubt it.

I didn't say I think that.


What I said is that for example if there is a forum for Real Madrid fans, and a Barcelona fan joins the forum with a nick "RealSux", and posts 100 posts how Real Madrid sucks at football. Then one day there is a game that Real loses, and "RealSux" proceeds making a post "REAL LOST AGAIN". Now in isolation, that post might be true and appear as if it was a legit post, but everyone knows it's just plain trolling, nothing else. Pointing out that one post doesn't refute a fact that all his posts are trolling.

The problem with your argument is that a coin thread is not for "fans" of a team who are there to have fun. It is an open discussion of the the coin, including positives and negatives.

To make a specific example, there someone named "toknormal" on the Dash thread who consistently posts positive comments about Dash, often repetitive in nature on narrow perspectives such as (his take on) "monetary properties" or technical analysis usually showing a positive outlook (and likewise the same repetitive, often inaccurate, negative comments about competing coins). He does this often and posts in a similarly cheerleading manner almost every single day.

toknormal's, consistent, frequent positive posts about Dash on the Dash thread, often focusing on the same set of subtopics are no more or less legitimate than TheDasher's consistent, frequent negative posts about Dash on the Dash thread.

If you want to engage on a public forum, you don't get filter negative opinions just because "fans" might find it unpleasant to read them. Such fans can go elsewhere for a forum focused on feel-good cheerleading.

[illodin]

If someone posts simply to piss off people it is trolling. No need to move the goal posts to cheerleading or evaluating legitimacy of posts just because you can't argue that fact.

[smooth]

If someone posts simply to piss off people it is trolling. No need to move the goal posts to cheerleading or evaluating legitimacy of posts just because you can't argue that fact.

I don't think you can prove that most of the posts are simply to piss people off. Even if it does piss people off.

[illodin]

If someone posts simply to piss off people it is trolling. No need to move the goal posts to cheerleading or evaluating legitimacy of posts just because you can't argue that fact.

I don't think you can prove that most of the posts are simply to piss people off. Even if it does piss people off.

I believe most people can see that pretty easily. There are certain disorders that can prevent that from happening and I feel if I continue this any longer I will catch one of those myself.

[BitcoinEXpress]

You guys have to know how wrong you are when I agree with Smooth.


Hell has officially frozen over.



~BCX~

[shitaifan2013]

If someone posts simply to piss off people it is trolling. No need to move the goal posts to cheerleading or evaluating legitimacy of posts just because you can't argue that fact.

I don't think you can prove that most of the posts are simply to piss people off. Even if it does piss people off.

I believe most people can see that pretty easily. There are certain disorders that can prevent that from happening and I feel if I continue this any longer I will catch one of those myself.

hm, I usually try to stay out of such nonsense, but since I really don't like double-standards: you do realize that you're trolling right now according to your own standards?

[iCEBREAKER]

  229 posts attacking the same thread   
  This is about the accuracy and good or bad name of a project. A lot of work from a lot of people. 

Q: Do you moderate/delete (possible) FUD, accusations and untrue information?
A: No. We don't have enough time to check every single piece of information and verify the validity of the sources. Also, just like scams - too much room for bias and abuse.

However, trolling isn't allowed. If a user is habitually posting obviously false nonsense just to stir up trouble, then it's considered trolling, which is prohibited. Such cases should be thoroughly documented in the report though (There are tons of reports that just say "trolling", but moderators don't have time to look through each user's post).

Q: Someone insulted me. Why aren't you deleting his post/thread?
A: Possible (since we don't have the time or resources to check) insults are also allowed as long as they contain any kind of constructive opinion, info or something else substantial and aren't off-topic. For example, posting something like "you are dumb" will be deleted as it contains no meaningful content. However, if the post is somehwere along the lines of "You are dumb. This is wrong because this website/thread/etc. has explained it's not right", it's in most cases accepted.

If you want to claim that the account in question is posting obviously false nonsense (note the emphasis which is mprep's not mine) and that is not constructive opinion, info, or something else substantial that isn't off topic, then you are going to have to quote it specifically and document it as such.

[/thread]

[illodin]

[/thread]

So it appears accounts AdamWhite and TheDasher have been banned as they haven't posted anymore, but he has activated yet another account: DrkLvr_

Circumventing a ban by posting from another account, tsk tsk.

[smooth]

[/thread]

So it appears accounts AdamWhite and TheDasher have been banned as they haven't posted anymore, but he has activated yet another account: DrkLvr_

Circumventing a ban by posting from another account, tsk tsk.

AdamWhite is MIA for >1 week but TheDasher is last active November 12.