█▓▒░-< [ZPOOL.CA][BTC Multipool] The miners multipool >-░▒▓█ Paid 925+ BTC

[AngryDwarf]

The other thing is to do an economic analysis. Add up the BTC mined over the algos for the last month, apply a 2% fee, and see if you could rent zpool's now 5 (presumably dedicated) servers and see if you can break even.
I suspect many pools cannot run on there publicly stated fee, and how would you attract users if you offered a 20% fee when the competition is advertising much less?
So in the end it comes down to which pool satisfies your requirements best.
I have beaten zpool earning using opportunistic mining scenarios, paying a far higher percentage fee in exchange withdrawal costs.
But for fire and forget mining, zpool does not come out that badly. And it is a well supported pool.
But as for renting nicehash at extremely competitive rates against zpool, over several runs it has been a zero sum game.
The fee does appear to be far higher than that stated. And a fair few people have done analysis that tends to indicate that is the case.
I'd agree with the sentiment that crackfoo is not paying much interest in the apparent discrepancies people are looking into.

[joblo]

I am wondering if the sale of coins on an exchange could cause the share of the person to be less in the end because they are also splitting the conversion cost?

Makes sense for that kind of coding mistake to happen because they are trying to make everything an equal split in the end.

I think that totally makes sense why a solo mined coin to payout type can end up being less in the end.    The block reward was split after the remainder was to sold on the exchange.  Sale fees, etc..... Since value and fees are unknown till sold...

anyone else see my flow of thought?

i am trying to follow the code, but it looks like what i said is right.
it uses btc as a constant.. not sure but all coins might get sent to exchange.. not sure if they get sold or not tho..

they get assigned a value and that value ,im assuming after fees, is used to adjust your balance..

so say you were solo mining a coin, you got 5 blocks and it was 50 coins.. they get sent to an exchange when they mature, and you end up with x amount of btc. when payouts come around, they get revalued back to solo coin and you end up with 40.

Most of this discussion assumes a mined coin is exchanged for the payout coin. The 20% reduction also occurs when the matured block
is the same currency as payout. In such cases there is no exchange. There's no use adding unnecessary variables to the problem.

I wish you success in finding the problem.

[denravonska]

Most of this discussion assumes a mined coin is exchanged for the payout coin. The 20% reduction also occurs when the matured block
is the same currency as payout. In such cases there is no exchange. There's no use adding unnecessary variables to the problem.

I wish you success in finding the problem.

The theory is that the coin is exchanged behind the scenes from X to BTC and back to X for payout. Could very well be but the loss is too great and too consistent for that IMO.

[joblo]

Most of this discussion assumes a mined coin is exchanged for the payout coin. The 20% reduction also occurs when the matured block
is the same currency as payout. In such cases there is no exchange. There's no use adding unnecessary variables to the problem.

I wish you success in finding the problem.

The theory is that the coin is exchanged behind the scenes from X to BTC and back to X for payout. Could very well be but the loss is too great and too consistent for that IMO.

Agreed, their could be a double exchange but my point is the problem occurs when no exchange is needed. The single coin
case is a better one to analyze as it may bypass all the exchange code. Even if it doesn't bypass the exchange code the single
coin case is easier to observe because there is no exchange rate fluctuation to be concerned with.

It is also my understanding that zpool does not exchange for altcoins on the open market. All altcoin payouts are done from
mined coins. So any non-BTC payout does not require a market exchange.

[c_demian]

Zpool web page says:
"Non-BTC payouts depend on that coin being mined as your BTC balance is traded internally by our system to your currency of choice."
Does that mean that if you mine an algo and reguest payout in a specific coin your coins are first exchanged in BTC and then BTC is converted to the specified coin? Or it applies only to different coins in the same algo?

[joblo]

Zpool web page says:
"Non-BTC payouts depend on that coin being mined as your BTC balance is traded internally by our system to your currency of choice."
Does that mean that if you mine an algo and reguest payout in a specific coin your coins are first exchanged in BTC and then BTC is converted to the specified coin? Or it applies only to different coins in the same algo?

Good question. The statement says it's done internally but doesn't say whether it's done in 2 stages. Analyzing the code
would answer that.

But, as Crackfoo said many, many times he's not a coder so it's over his head. That's why I suggested analyzing the logs.
That is the job of the admin.

[c_demian]

Zpool web page says:
"Non-BTC payouts depend on that coin being mined as your BTC balance is traded internally by our system to your currency of choice."
Does that mean that if you mine an algo and reguest payout in a specific coin your coins are first exchanged in BTC and then BTC is converted to the specified coin? Or it applies only to different coins in the same algo?

Good question. The statement says it's done internally but doesn't say whether it's done in 2 stages. Analyzing the code
would answer that.

But, as Crackfoo said many, many times he's not a coder so it's over his head. That's why I suggested analyzing the logs.
That is the job of the admin.

It's possible that coins get asigned initially a bigger value when they are placed at the exchange and then, when they are sold the value is adjusted to the real value.

[joblo]

Zpool web page says:
"Non-BTC payouts depend on that coin being mined as your BTC balance is traded internally by our system to your currency of choice."
Does that mean that if you mine an algo and reguest payout in a specific coin your coins are first exchanged in BTC and then BTC is converted to the specified coin? Or it applies only to different coins in the same algo?

Good question. The statement says it's done internally but doesn't say whether it's done in 2 stages. Analyzing the code
would answer that.

But, as Crackfoo said many, many times he's not a coder so it's over his head. That's why I suggested analyzing the logs.
That is the job of the admin.

It's possible that coins get asigned initially a bigger value when they are placed at the exchange and then, when they are sold the value is adjusted to the real value.

Those are random events. Coins go up and coins go down, how could random error cause a consistent 20% downward bias?

Also returning to my previous point, it's of no value to speculate about how exchange works unless we know that exchange is
done in the baseline case, ie mine one coin and get paid in same coin.

[crackfoo]

Zpool web page says:
"Non-BTC payouts depend on that coin being mined as your BTC balance is traded internally by our system to your currency of choice."
Does that mean that if you mine an algo and reguest payout in a specific coin your coins are first exchanged in BTC and then BTC is converted to the specified coin? Or it applies only to different coins in the same algo?

Good question. The statement says it's done internally but doesn't say whether it's done in 2 stages. Analyzing the code
would answer that.

But, as Crackfoo said many, many times he's not a coder so it's over his head. That's why I suggested analyzing the logs.
That is the job of the admin.

It's possible that coins get asigned initially a bigger value when they are placed at the exchange and then, when they are sold the value is adjusted to the real value.

Those are random events. Coins go up and coins go down, how could random error cause a consistent 20% downward bias?

Also returning to my previous point, it's of no value to speculate about how exchange works unless we know that exchange is
done in the baseline case, ie mine one coin and get paid in same coin.

I've yet to see anyone report it's "consistent" and imo it must play a role but the logic looses me . It's been reported between 15-32%?

[AngryDwarf]

Perpetual of denial.

Pseudo code:

CREATE TRIGGER on share;
IF update is not my address,
INSERT value of 20% towards my address;
END IF

[berron]

It could be possible to change code to give all the values taking into account the maximum BUY order?? Maybe this could solve part of this mistery/problem/seem to be oculted fee???.

OTOH, I have been testing other multi pool multi algo with auto switch, and for the moment crackfoo's is the one who is getting more return in a week basis, so I don't know when the people who is getting better results in mining, and I would like to know it. If it's true, please PM me and I will give a try.

Salute

[aarons6]

Zpool web page says:
"Non-BTC payouts depend on that coin being mined as your BTC balance is traded internally by our system to your currency of choice."
Does that mean that if you mine an algo and reguest payout in a specific coin your coins are first exchanged in BTC and then BTC is converted to the specified coin? Or it applies only to different coins in the same algo?

Good question. The statement says it's done internally but doesn't say whether it's done in 2 stages. Analyzing the code
would answer that.

But, as Crackfoo said many, many times he's not a coder so it's over his head. That's why I suggested analyzing the logs.
That is the job of the admin.

It's possible that coins get assigned initially a bigger value when they are placed at the exchange and then, when they are sold the value is adjusted to the real value.

i think this is exactly what happens.. the 'value' of coins are not based on block reward, its based on btc value..

so say you mine a 50 coin block and these coins were worth 58 sats.. the 'value' is recorded as this..
then they get sent to an exchange and the real sell value is 48 sats.. you lose those coins.. even if you were to be paid out straight across..

you can plainly see it in the source..

everything in this code, from the time the blocks get found to when they mature to when you get paid out is adjusted to btc value.

this pool is written to pay you in bitcoin.. you would probably make more if you just let it pay you in bitcoin and buy the coins of choice yourself.

[joblo]

I've yet to see anyone report it's "consistent" and imo it must play a role but the logic looses me . It's been reported between 15-32%?

It's been reproduced and demonstrated on enough algos and coins to conclude it's not isolated. And no one has demonstrated,
let alone claimed, it doesn't happen.

Anyway the first step in solving a problem is defining it. The definition of this problem is at a wall. Something happens to the
amount between the time a block is cleared an when it is credited to the balance.

The next step is to find out where and what, then why.

A simple control test can be performed mining a pool with one coin with one user and getting paid in the same coin.
Then extract all the DB info for it at various times, particularly between clearing and crediting a block. Is that too much to
ask?

[joblo]

you would probably make more if you just let it pay you in bitcoin and buy the coins of choice yourself.

I do did get paid in BTC but still got short changed.

If what you say is true why is it always a large negative difference, and where are the missing coins going?
The pool mined a whole block but only paid out 80% of it.

[aarons6]

I've yet to see anyone report it's "consistent" and imo it must play a role but the logic looses me . It's been reported between 15-32%?

It's been reproduced and demonstrated on enough algos and coins to conclude it's not isolated. And no one has demonstrated,
let alone claimed, it doesn't happen.

Anyway the first step in solving a problem is defining it. The definition of this problem is at a wall. Something happens to the
amount between the time a block is cleared an when it is credited to the balance.

The next step is to find out where and what, then why.

A simple control test can be performed mining a pool with one coin with one user and getting paid in the same coin.
Then extract all the DB info for it at various times, particularly between clearing and crediting a block. Is that too much to
ask?

no, all of the info should be in the debuglog..

from the time the block is found, to when its exchanged and payed out. it should have a pretty clear log.

it looks like there is a db of every user that has all this info.
userid, coinid, blockid, creation time, amount, and coin value.

but im not sure if this log gets reset after each payout. he might have to be watching it in real time to see it.

im also not sure if the admin has a way to pull this info up in his console or not.

[aarons6]

you would probably make more if you just let it pay you in bitcoin and buy the coins of choice yourself.

I do did get paid in BTC but still got short changed.

If what you say is true why is it always a large negative difference, and where are the missing coins going?
The pool mined a whole block but only paid out 80% of it.

like i said before, looking at the code it doesnt look like this pool cares about blocks..

it only cares about how much bitcoin they are worth..

say you are mining skien and you got a digibyte block.. to this pool this block isnt worth 974.887 DGB its worth 0.00053619 btc.. since it seems to be sent straight to the exchange and cashed out to the hot wallet as soon as its matured.

then when it comes time to pay out everyone.. it converts the btc back to dgb, if you tell it to, and sends you that amount, minus exchange fees and tx fees.

so by the time you reached your min payout of .005 or sunday which is lower, your dgb block of 974.887 coins might be only be worth 940.523 or whatever.

this pool isnt designed to be mining coin 'a', and getting paid out in coin 'a' if the exchange is turned on.. which it is..

you would make more mining coin 'a' on a different pool that only mines coin 'a'..

you might not even make as much coin 'b' auto exchanging coin 'a' on this pool vs if you do it yourself.. its just convenient to have it done automatically.

its a script, it cant guess market ups and downs.. it just looks at the value, throws the coins on the exchange and if they are in range sells them.

its also doing a very good job on the sha256 coins..

it really seems that the only algos people are having issues are the ones that only have one or two coins?

[joblo]

you would probably make more if you just let it pay you in bitcoin and buy the coins of choice yourself.

I do did get paid in BTC but still got short changed.

If what you say is true why is it always a large negative difference, and where are the missing coins going?
The pool mined a whole block but only paid out 80% of it.

like i said before, looking at the code it doesnt look like this pool cares about blocks..

it only cares about how much bitcoin they are worth..

say you are mining skien and you got a digibyte block.. to this pool this block isnt worth 974.887 DGB its worth 0.00053619 btc.. since it seems to be sent straight to the exchange and cashed out to the hot wallet as soon as its matured.

then when it comes time to pay out everyone.. it converts the btc back to dgb, if you tell it to, and sends you that amount, minus exchange fees and tx fees.

so by the time you reached your min payout of .005 or sunday which is lower, your dgb block of 974.887 coins might be only be worth 940.523 or whatever.

That's a pile of BS. Zpool never buys altcoins at the exchange, never did and I reiterated that in this forum less than a day ago.
Your making it up as you go.

It has already been proven the value of the block is correct when it is cleared. The data is stored in the DB, Later the data is extracted from the
DB. Is the data still correct? How is the balance credit calculated? Is that correct? Is it credited correctly to the user's wallet?

Those are the major points of interest. It doesn't matter whether you use debug logs or real time DB queries it's the data that
matters, not how you get it.

[aarons6]

you would probably make more if you just let it pay you in bitcoin and buy the coins of choice yourself.

I do did get paid in BTC but still got short changed.

If what you say is true why is it always a large negative difference, and where are the missing coins going?
The pool mined a whole block but only paid out 80% of it.

like i said before, looking at the code it doesnt look like this pool cares about blocks..

it only cares about how much bitcoin they are worth..

say you are mining skien and you got a digibyte block.. to this pool this block isnt worth 974.887 DGB its worth 0.00053619 btc.. since it seems to be sent straight to the exchange and cashed out to the hot wallet as soon as its matured.

then when it comes time to pay out everyone.. it converts the btc back to dgb, if you tell it to, and sends you that amount, minus exchange fees and tx fees.

so by the time you reached your min payout of .005 or sunday which is lower, your dgb block of 974.887 coins might be only be worth 940.523 or whatever.

That's a pile of BS. Zpool never buys altcoins at the exchange, never did and I reiterated that in this forum less than a day ago.
Your making it up as you go.

It has already been proven the value of the block is correct when it is cleared. The data is stored in the DB, Later the data is extracted from the
DB. Is the data still correct? How is the balance credit calculated? Is that correct? Is it credited correctly to the user's wallet?

Those are the major points of interest. It doesn't matter whether you use debug logs or real time DB queries it's the data that
matters, not how you get it.

i hate to break it to you, but this seems like the coins are exchanged right before payouts.. it might not be from an exchange and the pool might keep some coins stored internally for those payouts...

debuglog("{$user->username} converted to {$user->balance} {$coin->symbol} (old: $old_balance)");

also your "balance" is updated based on market price right before too

$user->balance = $user->balance * $coinref->price / $coin->price;

and this seems to be how its getting this value

$price2 = ($ticker->bid + $ticker->ask)/2;
$market->price2 = AverageIncrement($market->price2, $price2);
$market->price = AverageIncrement($market->price, $ticker->bid*0.98);
this is just one exchange, they all have their own separate pricing im guessing based on market caps or something.

it seems to be taking the ask and the bid and putting them together to make an average and then multiplying by 98%

so basically you will NEVER get paid the whole block.. even if its the only coin you mine..

[joblo]

so basically you will NEVER get paid the whole block.. even if its the only coin you mine..

Instead of repeating yourself try answering this question I asked 2 posts ago.

If what you say is true why is it always a large negative difference, and where are the missing coins going?
The pool mined a whole block but only paid out 80% of it.

You're not helping with your off target speculation, particularly because it has already been rejected with data
already available to users. We now need data that isn't available to users, not more speculation.

[JaredKaragen]

Just because one person doesn't have the coins exchanged... doesn't mean the pool doesn't calculate the split in exchange costs between all users who have shares on that block....  unless this is a known factor... which I believe it's still unknown.