Admin- aren't you the one who make rules,need your response

[PCos]

I think if someone will have a neg trust even he want to sell an account , lending sectiont on BTCtalk will be close shortly!

I appreciate that Neotox and  a little (really little) group of user that sells  account with their own account ,

There was a time when the lending section dealt with valid collateral - not other accounts.

I not really clear. Sorry. I would say that if Neotox sell an account for collect a defaulted loan, and he sell this in digital section using his own account so "Neotox sell 2 member account" for example, it would be appreciate! Because there was a lot of user that open account only for sell on digital section o auction section.....

[EcuaMobi]

I have no problem even if they remove whole trust system from forum because its better to have no such system then giving ipower to the guys who misuse them against forum rules

giving power to such users is like giving loaded gun to monkey, if someone doesn't have ability and take action emotionally then its same thing
if you get power you get responsibility too, but if if after getting power someone think they can do anything then its worst then giving gun to monkey

I do not think negative feedback (at least from DT) is deserved just for selling accounts unless there's an agreement/rule to forbid it or unless trusted/green accounts are being sold to untrustworthy users or other actions are made that may help scammers (which is not the case here AFAIK, let me know if I'm wrong).

Besides I think jonald_fyookball has left several undeserved negative and positive trust in the past, I've explicitly removed from my trust list a couple of months ago.

However OP you're criticizing him for acting "emotionally" and frankly you're much more guilty of that in this thread. Your generalized accusations are not helping too much. I get you must be affected by this but try and be more objective about all this.


That said maybe it's worth (re-)opening a discussion to decide whether selling accounts should be forbidden or at least not used as collateral. But until the community decides it trusted negative feedback is not deserved.

[mixan]

This fine line of whoring out accounts should be addressed here, right here right now!

 

Let's see if it happens.   I'll then ask the same of the sale of hacked MS accounts.  

Other people I'm sure will have other issues they want addressed.

This is Neo's thread. Stay the matter at hand and it might be resolved if all the accused of account "farming" listed on the first page comes and comments, then Theymos might take heed to come to a conclusion himself.

Creation of another thread would be suggested if any other things would be addressed, ie MS accts and the sort.

[zazarb]

For the lazy, OP is talking about jonald_fyookball[1] set on DT level 2 by BadBear

[1] https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=261027

why I not see his comment?(only in untrusted feedbacks), my trust setting- 2 depth, without exclusion

Probably because of one of the 62 people on your trust list.

thanks for explanation, found even three very reputable member(in 2 level) who excluded jonald_fyookball. and thanks that count my trust list, has always been a mystery to me how many of them there

[FruitsBasket]

The admins have never banned account selling so giving negative trust for it should not be reasonable.
Every user decides for himself to give trust or not, but this is not reasonable so he should be removed from DT 2.

[jonald_fyookball]

You have to ask:  What's the point of this forum?

I say its to have fun, meaningful, informative
dialouge...AKA BITCOINTALK.

How does buying and selling of accounts contribute
or support that in any way, shape or form?

It does just just the opposite, IMO, and I haven't
seen a good argument to the contrary.

"People are gonna do it anyway" isn't a good argument.
I still think it should be discouraged.
 
People either buy an account to make themselves
appear as someone they are not (either a noob
who wants to appear a seasoned veteran, or an outed
scammer who wants a fresh start)... OR MAYBE, just
maybe they plan to use the account to participate
in a signature campaign, which puts their main
intention as making money, not contributing the
to the forum.

And thats the same mentality behind farming accounts.
Its just selfish profiteering that has no legitimate
purpose for everyone else that just wants to talk
about Bitcoin.

People complain about the quality of posts here.
Well, this sure ain't helping and as long as
the powers that be keep me on default trust,
I'm sure not gonna support it.

The only reason its not outright banned
is because it would be impossible to enforce
and give the illusion that people with history
can be trusted when there would be blackmarket
selling of accounts anyway.

That's fine, but doesn't mean I have to condone it.

Neotox,if you want to stop selling accounts, I'll
remove the negative.

I don't believe in double standards either.
If there's someone else selling accounts, PM
me and I'll do the same.  

It doesn't mean I'm agreeing to police anything,
but if its brought to my attention and its
blatant as it was here, I feel perfectly justified in leaving
my opinion via negative feedback.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  

[GannickusX]

I have no problem even if they remove whole trust system from forum because its better to have no such system then giving ipower to the guys who misuse them against forum rules

giving power to such users is like giving loaded gun to monkey, if someone doesn't have ability and take action emotionally then its same thing
if you get power you get responsibility too, but if if after getting power someone think they can do anything then its worst then giving gun to monkey

You have no problems now but when you had the green trust you obviously didn't want the system to be removed. So far all the DT members that have been abusing the system have been punished and eventually kicked out of the DT position.

[FruitsBasket]

You have to ask:  What's the point of this forum?

I say its to have fun, meaningful, informative
dialouge...AKA BITCOINTALK.

How does buying and selling of accounts contribute
or support that in any way, shape or form?

It does just just the opposite, IMO, and I haven't
seen a good argument to the contrary.

"People are gonna do it anyway" isn't a good argument.
I still think it should be discouraged.
 
People either buy an account to make themselves
appear as someone they are not (either a noob
who wants to appear a seasoned veteran, or an outed
scammer who wants a fresh start)... OR MAYBE, just
maybe they plan to use the account to participate
in a signature campaign, which puts their main
intention as making money, not contributing the
to the forum.

And thats the same mentality behind selling accounts.
Its just selfish profiteering that has no legitimate
purpose for everyone else that just wants to talk
about Bitcoin.

People complain about the quality of posts here.
Well, this sure ain't helping and as long as
the powers that be keep me on default trust,
I'm sure not gonna support it.

Neotox,if you want to stop selling accounts, I'll
remove the negative.

I don't believe in double standards either.
If there's someone else selling accounts, PM
me and I'll do the same. 

It doesn't mean I'm agreeing to police anything,
but if its brought to my attention and its
blatant as it was here, I feel perfectly justified in leaving
my opinion via negative feedback.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

People also can buy accounts because it is then easier for them to start up a business because if a newbie starts a new buissiness then most people will not pay any attention. Although most accounts are used for signature campaign, but still not a valid reason to give neotox a negative trust.
Mayby he only buy and sell accounts and he does not earn from his alt( alts wear mayby no signature).

[AccountTrader]

Heres to making myself a target lol

The list of people "blatantly selling accounts is long; In the past I have seen many trusted members sell accounts I'm not one for naming though. What is blatantly selling accounts anyway? Should they be sold in a side ally of the forum with no escrow? Jokes aside that would be safe..

Speaking of escrows, are they facilitating the sales of accounts by offering their service? Many buyers would not buy btct forum accounts should they be dealing with untrusted sellers without escrow. So should they get negative trust also as they play just as big role do they not?

On to me; I have in the past sold many accounts even up until the other day/week. Maybe take a look at what I require from recent posts if you are to by an account from me lol They are never sold to people without being vetted. From 100's of accounts I've sold 3 have turned scammer and that was the same member = I dealt with that before they could actually scam though and the community was warned before any bad actually happened so no accounts I've sold have went on to part people from their money.

Imagine the spam should account sales be policed and stopped. People still want accounts and instead of buying them they will be spamming the forum for them to rank up. I have to add, when you buy an account you consciously make effort to make good posts because after all it is an investment and you A, don't want the account banned. B, You want to get paid for your campaign so thus 90% of accounts are looked after more than normal.

To recap- not one of my 100's of sold accounts have gone on to scam so that is not a good excuse to leave neg trust.

Bye for now    

[XinXan]

You have to ask:  What's the point of this forum?

I say its to have fun, meaningful, informative
dialouge...AKA BITCOINTALK.

How does buying and selling of accounts contribute
or support that in any way, shape or form?

It does just just the opposite, IMO, and I haven't
seen a good argument to the contrary.

"People are gonna do it anyway" isn't a good argument.
I still think it should be discouraged.
 
People either buy an account to make themselves
appear as someone they are not (either a noob
who wants to appear a seasoned veteran, or an outed
scammer who wants a fresh start)... OR MAYBE, just
maybe they plan to use the account to participate
in a signature campaign, which puts their main
intention as making money, not contributing the
to the forum.

And thats the same mentality behind selling accounts.
Its just selfish profiteering that has no legitimate
purpose for everyone else that just wants to talk
about Bitcoin.

People complain about the quality of posts here.
Well, this sure ain't helping and as long as
the powers that be keep me on default trust,
I'm sure not gonna support it.

Neotox,if you want to stop selling accounts, I'll
remove the negative.

I don't believe in double standards either.
If there's someone else selling accounts, PM
me and I'll do the same. 

It doesn't mean I'm agreeing to police anything,
but if its brought to my attention and its
blatant as it was here, I feel perfectly justified in leaving
my opinion via negative feedback.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

People also can buy accounts because it is then easier for them to start up a business because if a newbie starts a new buissiness then most people will not pay any attention. Although most accounts are used for signature campaign, but still not a valid reason to give neotox a negative trust.
Mayby he only buy and sell accounts and he does not earn from his alt( alts wear mayby no signature).

Your point is stupid and not real. Why would people trust someone that is Hero member just because he is a Hero member, you shouldn't do that and im sure it's not the case. I haven't seen anyone having problems promoting his website, everyone starts without trust, you build trust slowly, buying an account just to promote your site would make you look more suspicious.

Who determines what's a good reason to give negative trust if trust is not moderated?

[jonald_fyookball]

 
People also can buy accounts because it is then easier for them to start up a business because if a newbie starts a new buissiness then most people will not pay any attention.  

If they are truly a newbie on the forum, why should we trust them?

Are you saying its a good thing that a newbie can come on the forum,
pay a few satoshis, instantly appear more trustworthy, and then
use that appearance to start a business where people will be
sending them money?  
 
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm trying to discourage.

[EcuaMobi]

 
People also can buy accounts because it is then easier for them to start up a business because if a newbie starts a new buissiness then most people will not pay any attention.  

If they are truly a newbie on the forum, why should we trust them?

Are you saying its a good thing that a newbie can come on the forum,
pay a few satoshis, instantly appear more trustworthy, and then
use that appearance to start a business where people will be
sending them money?  
 
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm trying to discourage.

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.

Directly leaving negative trust is not the way to discourage something that could happen indirectly. I agree leaving negative feedback would be deserved if someone sold an account to a user with negative trust; didn't warn when he realized a former buyer was trying to scam; or didn't help to stop him; or willingly helping a scammer in any way.

But to establish a no-account-selling policy further discussion is required. Even if admins just limit to "it's allowed because it can't be prevented" or "it would happen anyway" you could start a thread to ask for non-admin-but-trusted-members' opinion. There we could discuss the implications of having that practice strongly discouraged.

DT members' non-neutral feedback is/should be more than just an opinion because it can render accounts green or red.  

[jonald_fyookball]

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.
 

It is ?

Can you paste a reference please?

[EcuaMobi]

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.
 

It is ?

Can you paste a reference please?

For example:

In addition to the enforcement issue: From time to time people have asked me whether they could sell their accounts or use them as collateral because they have an emergency need for money or have come on hard times. I'm not going to tell them they can't do this. It's your account and you can do what you want with it. I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity), but the act of selling your account does not itself hurt anyone else, and in fact scams via account sales are very rare.

I agree with theymos it's not a very nice activity. But it's not directly scammy and to establish a policy to forbid/strongly discourage it more discussion is required.

[jonald_fyookball]

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.
 

It is ?

Can you paste a reference please?

For example:

In addition to the enforcement issue: From time to time people have asked me whether they could sell their accounts or use them as collateral because they have an emergency need for money or have come on hard times. I'm not going to tell them they can't do this. It's your account and you can do what you want with it. I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity), but the act of selling your account does not itself hurt anyone else, and in fact scams via account sales are very rare.

I agree with theymos it's not a very nice activity. But it's not directly scammy and to establish a policy to forbid/strongly discourage it more discussion is required.

I interpret this as a single person can sell their main account if they have an emergency.  I don't think Theymos is condoning account farming here.

[XinXan]

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.
 

It is ?

Can you paste a reference please?

For example:

In addition to the enforcement issue: From time to time people have asked me whether they could sell their accounts or use them as collateral because they have an emergency need for money or have come on hard times. I'm not going to tell them they can't do this. It's your account and you can do what you want with it. I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity), but the act of selling your account does not itself hurt anyone else, and in fact scams via account sales are very rare.

I agree with theymos it's not a very nice activity. But it's not directly scammy and to establish a policy to forbid/strongly discourage it more discussion is required.

I interpret this as a single person can sell their main account if they have an emergency.  I don't think Theymos is condoning account farming here.

Of course he is not ''I find it pretty distasteful (it's like selling your identity)'' I have nothing against selling accounts without any trust but when people sell accounts with green trust and even DT accounts, quickseller used to, that shouldn't be allowed and to stop that the only way would be to stop all account sellings.

[zazarb]

I've always had my doubts regarding selling accounts, especially to newbies and even more to users with negative trust. However it's allowed now.
 

It is ?

Can you paste a reference please?

can you provide even one proof that I bought/create to farming even one account ? or maybe you have proof that even one from 4 or 5 account (total) which I  sell scammed someone? Or maybe you have solution Where to put them, when  scamer left after default loan? or you here just for fun taged with red, because they are not engaged in the.

[Quickseller]

I don't think the OP is account farming, and neither is zazarb. From what I can tell, they are acquiring accounts via loans and when their borrowers do not repay, they sell the accounts to cover the loan, plus some amount for profit.

theymos specifically gives the example of giving accounts for collateral for loans, and it is ridiculous to say that someone who accepts collateral that was rightly owned by the person taking such loan should not be able to sell that collateral in the event the loan is not repaid.

ToSellorNotToSell has implied that he is selling his main account, although it has taken him a very long time to sell it.

[shorena]

You have to ask:  What's the point of this forum?

I say its to have fun, meaningful, informative
dialouge...AKA BITCOINTALK.

How does buying and selling of accounts contribute
or support that in any way, shape or form?

It does just just the opposite, IMO, and I haven't
seen a good argument to the contrary.

"People are gonna do it anyway" isn't a good argument.
I still think it should be discouraged.
 
People either buy an account to make themselves
appear as someone they are not (either a noob
who wants to appear a seasoned veteran, or an outed
scammer who wants a fresh start)... OR MAYBE, just
maybe they plan to use the account to participate
in a signature campaign, which puts their main
intention as making money, not contributing the
to the forum.

And thats the same mentality behind selling accounts.
Its just selfish profiteering that has no legitimate
purpose for everyone else that just wants to talk
about Bitcoin.

People complain about the quality of posts here.
Well, this sure ain't helping and as long as
the powers that be keep me on default trust,
I'm sure not gonna support it.

Neotox,if you want to stop selling accounts, I'll
remove the negative.

I don't believe in double standards either.
If there's someone else selling accounts, PM
me and I'll do the same. 

It doesn't mean I'm agreeing to police anything,
but if its brought to my attention and its
blatant as it was here, I feel perfectly justified in leaving
my opinion via negative feedback.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. 

Thanks for that statement.

The forum is also a marketplace, whether you like/use it as such or not. Accounts are used as collateral. People leave the forum and sell their account for a few coins. Its all selfish, yes. Bought accounts cause spam, yes. So do other "self grown" accounts. I understand your goal, but what you are doing will not help you reach it. Sure you might stop Neotox, but others will see this and just create a fresh newbie account to sell an account. Account trades will have more risks involved. An estiblished account has an incentive to stay honest, they have build a reputation they can lose. A newbie has nothing to lose.

You are not harming the spammers, you are also not harming the scammers. You are harming those that use their main account and risk their reputation, those that can be held accountable for their actions.

-snip-
Are you saying its a good thing that a newbie can come on the forum,
pay a few satoshis, instantly appear more trustworthy, and then
use that appearance to start a business where people will be
sending them money?  
 
This is EXACTLY the kind of thing I'm trying to discourage.

But because account trades happen openly you know you cant trust an account just because it has a high rank.

[Quickseller]

I have nothing against selling accounts without any trust but when people sell accounts with green trust and even DT accounts, quickseller used to, that shouldn't be allowed and to stop that the only way would be to stop all account sellings.

So if someone is on DT or has positive trust, they should not be allowed to sell their account?

In other words, if someone has acted honestly within the community, earned positive trust after trading honestly, they should not be able to put their account up as collateral when they have an emergency need for money? If they are in need of money, and cannot sell their account, then why would they not simply scam to cover their needs?