The economic model behind Bitcoin is flawed

[criptix]

How comes every industry nation has declining population growth?

Get your facts straight, dude

How comes we only see 10 kids per family in 3rd world countries?

Yes, this is the question I want to hear the answer to as well (though the answer is pretty simple)

Checkmate. You just showed you have no clue what you are talking about and are just a google/wikipedia warrior.
I will tell you the reason for a rising population in the US: Immigration.
Since ~1970 the birthrate is just barely around 2.0.ä or less, without immigration the population in the us would be declining.

In every other industry nation without ridic immigration of Mexicans and other South Americans their exist a declining birth rate and population.


Please stop trying to be smart because you are not.
There was a reason i wrote about tiger and dragon states while talking about ridicilous population growth in the 3rd world amid wars, famines etc. and nearly zero economic structres. ( its the opposite of what you are stating btw )

[deisik]

How comes every industry nation has declining population growth?

Get your facts straight, dude

How comes we only see 10 kids per family in 3rd world countries?

Yes, this is the question I want to hear the answer to as well (though the answer is pretty simple)

Checkmate. You just showed you have no clue what you are talking about and are just a google/wikipedia warrior.
I will tell you the reason for a rising population in the US: Immigration.
Since ~1970 the birthrate is just barely around 2.0.ä or less, without immigration the population in the us would be declining.

Lol, you said that every industrial nation has declining population growth, right? This is what you asked exactly, and got an exact answer that this is surely not the case. Besides, the total majority of the US population are immigrants and descendants of European immigrants and African slaves, clown

[criptix]

How comes every industry nation has declining population growth?

Get your facts straight, dude

How comes we only see 10 kids per family in 3rd world countries?

Yes, this is the question I want to hear the answer to as well (though the answer is pretty simple)

Checkmate. You just showed you have no clue what you are talking about and are just a google/wikipedia warrior.
I will tell you the reason for a rising population in the US: Immigration.
Since ~1970 the birthrate is just barely around 2.0.ä or less, without immigration the population in the us would be declining.

Lol, you said that every industrial nation has declining population growth, right? This is what you asked. Besides, almost the whole population of the US are immigrants of the European origin, moron

Yes because the US was founded by europeans what a wonder. Lmao

Very nice how you try to slowly change the topic.

We were talking about fiat money as the reason for people to become richer and through that have higher fertility and increase the population.
I showed you that you were plain wrong with your google and wikipedia shit.


Immigration from poor nations to rich nations is the only reason why we have around 0-1% population growth with an average birthrate of 1.5.

Too bad facts and numbers dont lie.


Oh i guess you never read a study about immigration in the us right?
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2015/09/28/modern-immigration-wave-brings-59-million-to-u-s-driving-population-growth-and-change-through-2065/

[funkenstein]

And I have to repeat another question which you seem to have decided to deliberately ignore:

The use of internal combustion engines in agriculture especially correlated with rapid growth in the last 100 years

So you agree that the use of machinery allowed to produce more foods and goods by the same hands, right?

Yes, of course. 

Since we're doing nonsequitur queries heres a few for you too: 

What procedure would you use to fit a set of data to an exponential curve, in other words determining the best values of A and B such that a dataset P_i(t_i) most closely matched the function P(t) = A*e^(Bt) ?  What criteria would you use to say the fit was "good"?  What criteria would lead you to describe the data as growing faster or slowly than an exponential? 

What fraction of the total bitcoin supply will 1 bitcoin be in 20 years? 

What fraction of the total USD supply will 500 dollars be in 20 years? 

Counterfeitable money didn't cause population increase and lack of pirates didn't cause global warming.  Seems dead obvious to me there but hey a lot of people like to get on the correlation is always causation bandwagon so what do I know right? 

[funkenstein]

I see that you don't have a clue about how fiat (credit) money works. Fiat money is not a commodity, to begin with. It doesn't have nor is it required to have any value of its own...

Only a transactional utility, which is a bonus

Hmm transactional utility without value?   Interesting. 

Hmm, not a commodity, yet I go to the market and buy it just like I do all other commodities.  Interesting.

Tell us more. 
   

 

[deisik]

And I have to repeat another question which you seem to have decided to deliberately ignore:

The use of internal combustion engines in agriculture especially correlated with rapid growth in the last 100 years

So you agree that the use of machinery allowed to produce more foods and goods by the same hands, right?

Yes, of course.

Thereby you agree that using machinery, or, in a broader sense, technological innovations make people richer and wealthier overall (since they get more output with less or the same amount of effort), right?

[deisik]

I see that you don't have a clue about how fiat (credit) money works. Fiat money is not a commodity, to begin with. It doesn't have nor is it required to have any value of its own...

Only a transactional utility, which is a bonus

Hmm transactional utility without value?   Interesting.   

I meant that money's own value is transactional utility only. Though this is still no more than a beneficial side effect of a particular implementation of the concept of money, a bonus, as I said...

What else did you fail to understand?

[deisik]

Since we're doing nonsequitur queries heres a few for you too:

It is no more than your opinion. Mine, apparently, differs from yours. I can prove my point if and when I consider it necessary, but ultimately it is irrelevant, since you are not the author of this topic while I am. Thereby it is not up to you to decide what should be discussed here and what not. I hope you will honor this "pecking order"...

Otherwise, you may want to go elsewhere

What procedure would you use to fit a set of data to an exponential curve, in other words determining the best values of A and B such that a dataset P_i(t_i) most closely matched the function P(t) = A*e^(Bt) ?  What criteria would you use to say the fit was "good"?  What criteria would lead you to describe the data as growing faster or slowly than an exponential?

I guess you (since I am not interested in that) should use the least squares method, if you are talking about approximation of some data by an exponential curve, y=Ae^(Bx). And I leave it to you to decide on the other things as well...

Since I'm not interested in them either

[deisik]

Counterfeitable money didn't cause population increase and lack of pirates didn't cause global warming.  Seems dead obvious to me there but hey a lot of people like to get on the correlation is always causation bandwagon so what do I know right?

You just think that you understand everything (in respect to this discussion about the wealth of society and the growth of population), but you don't. I remember that I already said this, but since it evidently didn't get through, lol, I repeat it once again that I never said nor implied that fiat did or can contribute directly to the population growth...

But because you lack the ability of thinking in reverse, you can't possibly understand where exactly you fail

[criptix]

Then you have to deal with the fact that people during the last 100 years have become much richer overall, despite all the fiat floating around since then. Otherwise, you will have a hard time proving that "for more than 100 years fiat has been a parasite living off people across the world"...

Since becoming richer and better off is surely not something you would expect from the victim of a parasite

It is certainly off topic but I'm still interested in what you might possibly mean by "people have become much richer".  Perhaps a reference to improvement of infrastructure on global average, e.g. more running water, or technological progress?  Clearly the population has hugely increased

You still have to explain this. Given all your courage you should necessarily be granted the chance to be the first (to fall, wow):



Note the exponential growth after 1950

( btw exponential growth starts way before 1950 )
It starts exactly at this post deisik.
Now you are not only a stupid wikipedia warrior but also a liar.

[bitsmichel]

I disagree with the topic statement. Bitcoins economic model is no more flawed than gold or silver.

[funkenstein]

Counterfeitable money didn't cause population increase and lack of pirates didn't cause global warming.  Seems dead obvious to me there but hey a lot of people like to get on the correlation is always causation bandwagon so what do I know right?

You just think that you understand everything (in respect to this discussion about the wealth of society and the growth of population), but you don't. I remember that I already said this, but since it evidently didn't get through, lol, I repeat it once again that I never said nor implied that fiat did or can contribute directly to the population growth...

But because you lack the ability of thinking in reverse, you can't possibly understand where exactly you fail

Greetings.  Well actually I know far too little about wealth of society, which is kinda why I'm here.  Perhaps expose some of my ignorance and maybe pick up a few new ideas no?   Stranger things have happened.  

But since we got some formalities out of the way maybe this could become a more interesting discussion.  

First thing that should be said is that there is no economic model behind bitcoin.  At least not necessarily.  Just like there is no economic model behind 79 protons.  Or "corn".  They are just things for us to use as we wish, with certain properties.  Properties that are useful for certain uses.  An economic model implies a household; whether one can sustain things like food, shelter, clothing, water, and other things one might need or want to keep up in life.  Economic models are often in flux, as one adds new activities, needs, desires.. and problems arise.  There are necessarily many such models simultaneously overlapping.  Individuals, families, and larger corporations.. all the way up to Gaia herself.  

As to the "societal wealth" thing I can tell you my opinion about it fwiw.  Population size seems really not a good metric at all.  On top of the list for me would be survivability, that is: health of the ecosystem and preparedness for shock.  Biodiversity.  Also involved is education.  How much of your population can play Bach pieces in multiple keys on multiple instruments?  That is wealthy.  How many people really feel the funk?  That is wealthy.  How many George Clinton shows did people get to see this year?  How many nights did they sleep out under the stars?  These things constitute a wealthy society in my mind much more than having 10 kids.  

The ability to pursue happiness.  It's a vague phrase but it was chosen well and can get the point across, that we don't have to agree on exactly what it is but we do agree that people should be able to do it as they see fit, and that their ability to do so could be called wealth.  

The "grand experiment" of dimensionless token sheistery is an anathema to societal wealth.  Infrastructure is decayed.  Resources are depleted.  Educational systems have become frayed and broken.  Corruption and fraud are at the core of everything it touches.  How can one pursue happiness if one is beholden to the counterfeiters to no limit?  The amazing thing is how well people have done despite its perniciousness.            


In other news, I'd love to learn to think in reverse.  Please help.  It's a cryptographers dream. 
    

[funkenstein]

And I have to repeat another question which you seem to have decided to deliberately ignore:

The use of internal combustion engines in agriculture especially correlated with rapid growth in the last 100 years

So you agree that the use of machinery allowed to produce more foods and goods by the same hands, right?

Yes, of course.

Thereby you agree that using machinery, or, in a broader sense, technological innovations make people richer and wealthier overall (since they get more output with less or the same amount of effort), right?

Not necessarily.  It depends how they are used.  If it is truly more output in a long term sense, then yes.  But one must keep in mind the story of the Lorax.  In the end everyone was poorer overall.  Not because of the technology but because of the idiocy. 

[deisik]

I disagree with the topic statement. Bitcoins economic model is no more flawed than gold or silver.

This is debatable, but when I wrote about Bitcoin economic model being flawed, I actually meant that it is flawed where fiat shines. As to the Bitcoin vs gold argument, personally, I'm in favor of Bitcoin to a degree (in what concerns their models, at least). Gold (as money) can in fact suffer from the same major flaw that fiat is being constantly ashamed with, i.e. hyperinflation...

Yes, it can happen, and what is more interesting, it did happen

[deisik]

First thing that should be said is that there is no economic model behind bitcoin.  At least not necessarily.  Just like there is no economic model behind 79 protons.  Or "corn".  They are just things for us to use as we wish, with certain properties.  Properties that are useful for certain uses.  An economic model implies a household; whether one can sustain things like food, shelter, clothing, water, and other things one might need or want to keep up in life.  Economic models are often in flux, as one adds new activities, needs, desires.. and problems arise.  There are necessarily many such models simultaneously overlapping.  Individuals, families, and larger corporations.. all the way up to Gaia herself   

Strictly speaking, what I meant is more correctly called monetary model, i.e. a detailed description of the concept of Bitcoin as money (e.g. how new coins are injected into the system and in what volume). But since Bitcoin is said to change the ways of life of people economically (and even beyond), I used that term...

To make things easier for them

[deisik]

And I have to repeat another question which you seem to have decided to deliberately ignore:

The use of internal combustion engines in agriculture especially correlated with rapid growth in the last 100 years

So you agree that the use of machinery allowed to produce more foods and goods by the same hands, right?

Yes, of course.

Thereby you agree that using machinery, or, in a broader sense, technological innovations make people richer and wealthier overall (since they get more output with less or the same amount of effort), right?

Not necessarily. It depends how they are used.  If it is truly more output in a long term sense, then yes.  But one must keep in mind the story of the Lorax.  In the end everyone was poorer overall.  Not because of the technology but because of the idiocy. 

But using (as well as developing and building) more and more sophisticated machinery requires yet more specialization, i.e. what is otherwise called division of labor. Given that, the growing division of labor necessarily requires more skilled hands in greater numbers, i.e., on one hand, it requires the growth of population, and, on the other hand, provides means for this growth through a qualitative increase in productivity, right?

So what about the importance of the population growth now?

[USB-S]

You say that fiat shines where bitcoin doesn't and then go on about how the injection of new coins is the problem. You're a silly little troll you know that?

[Amph]

I disagree with the topic statement. Bitcoins economic model is no more flawed than gold or silver.

This is debatable, but when I wrote about Bitcoin economic model being flawed, I actually meant that it is flawed where fiat shines.

so you mean that we need a inflationary system, but not as a bad as fiat, but more on the deflazionary side, a bit of both basically?

weren't the analysts suggesting that a better economy should be more inflazionary? but i think that they are only looking at their portfolio when saying so...

[deisik]

You say that fiat shines where bitcoin doesn't and then go on about how the injection of new coins is the problem. You're a silly little troll you know that?

I don't quite understand what you refer to. Please explain yourself

[deisik]

I disagree with the topic statement. Bitcoins economic model is no more flawed than gold or silver.

This is debatable, but when I wrote about Bitcoin economic model being flawed, I actually meant that it is flawed where fiat shines.

so you mean that we need a inflationary system, but not as a bad as fiat, but more on the deflazionary side, a bit of both basically?

weren't the analysts suggesting that a better economy should be more inflazionary? but i think that they are only looking at their portfolio when saying so...

No, we don't need either inflationary or deflationary system per se. We need a system that could work as both according to the requirements of the real economy (the credit money is quite close to that), and, at the same, protected from the arbitrariness and abuse by a group people (usually called banksters) pursuing their own interests to the detriment of society. The latter part seems to be the most tricky one...

And no, Bitcoin doesn't cut it either