Jinn/IOTA - What is really going on?

[iotatoken]

Perhaps Iota folks may have started to morph the presentation of their endeavors to prospective "investors", because of this thread I did on the legality of selling unregistered shares to investors:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1218399.0

In any case, I do not take sides on this issue. I am not making any accusations of bad intentions nor intentional fraud.

If they have already raised money in the form of shares (and I have no position about whether that claim is true or not because I don't know), I will just note that per my thread above, it is seems impossible for them to now claim they are not offering an investment and have it stand up as a valid argument in a court of law w.r.t. to (at least USA) securities law.

Not at all. This is standard software sale, same way Ethereum, Augur, Gems, Voxelus etc. does it. You need to understand that this guy is a troll, he was banned for stalking, false accusations and death threats on nxtforum the day before.

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[smooth]

You need to understand that this guy is a troll, he was banned for stalking, false accusations and death threats on nxtforum the day before.

I don't read nxtforum, so that means nothing to me. I haven't seen any stalking on this thread at all. I've seen you avoid the questions about conversion of the JINN asset into IOTA, and the quoted promise that the JINN asset would be legally converted into profit shares.

Was that quote false or out of context?

[iotatoken]

You need to understand that this guy is a troll, he was banned for stalking, false accusations and death threats on nxtforum the day before.

I don't read nxtforum, so that means nothing to me. I haven't seen any stalking on this thread at all. I've seen you avoid the questions about conversion of the JINN asset into IOTA, and the quoted promise that the JINN asset would be legally converted into profit shares.

Was that quote false or out of context?

Haven't avoided any questions. Like I said, it is clearly explained over at the nxtforum (only relevant forum for this discussion). JINN tokens always represented crypto tokens tied to the sale of hardware payed out via tokens. Since then legalities has changed in EU and so we're looking into how to best do it in accordance with the wishes of JINN holders. End of discussion. I wont continue to feed this troll.


If you want to continue the convo, take it over to nxtforum. Wont answer here again.

[smooth]

You need to understand that this guy is a troll, he was banned for stalking, false accusations and death threats on nxtforum the day before.

I don't read nxtforum, so that means nothing to me. I haven't seen any stalking on this thread at all. I've seen you avoid the questions about conversion of the JINN asset into IOTA, and the quoted promise that the JINN asset would be legally converted into profit shares.

Was that quote false or out of context?

Haven't avoided any questions. Like I said, it is clearly explained over at the nxtforum (only relevant forum for this discussion).

Then you should simply sign off here. Bitcointalk.org users can discuss it among ourselves.

[DecentralizeEconomics]

You need to understand that this guy is a troll, he was banned for stalking, false accusations and death threats on nxtforum the day before.

Why don't you stop lying for once.  I wasn't banned for "stalking, false accusations and death threats".  I was banned because I ask the tough questions that nobody wants to answer and have the guts to stand up to the weenie ass mods over there on NXT forum.  The mods over on NXT forum selectively enforce the rules to their liking.  Even though they state in the forum rules that insults are not allowed, they didn't have a problem with another forum member calling me "retarded".  They saw the post and didn't delete it or reprimand the poster.  Yet, they consistently took down my posts that were critical of their actions, even though my posts didn't break any of the forum rules.  Long story short, I started a poll in which I asked the community if the mods were retarded.  I never stated that they were in fact retarded, but when the poll ended, the votes came in unanimous that they were in fact "raging retards".  I will always support free speech and free elections and I can't help what the community over at NXT forum thinks about their mods.  They obviously banned me because they can't handle the truth and don't like people who ask unpopular questions.

But enough about me, let's get back to you misrepresenting Jinn / IOTA to your non-investors.

I've seen you avoid the questions about conversion of the JINN asset into IOTA, and the quoted promise that the JINN asset would be legally converted into profit shares.

Was that quote false or out of context?

No, it's entirely in context.  Follow the link and read it yourself.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/%28ann%29-jinn/msg156081/#msg156081

Instead we'll ask everyone who holds Jinn tokens to give us their contact information (we'll need this in preparation for the legal transfer of profit-shares in the near future anyway) where we'll answer more intricate questions, without opening ourselves up for scruitiny from every angle imaginable in public.

Haven't avoided any questions. Like I said, it is clearly explained over at the nxtforum (only relevant forum for this discussion). JINN tokens always represented crypto tokens tied to the sale of hardware payed out via tokens. Since then legalities has changed in EU and so we're looking into how to best do it in accordance with the wishes of JINN holders. End of discussion. I wont continue to feed this troll.

If you want to continue the convo, take it over to nxtforum. Wont answer here again.

You never answered the question.  Not here and not on NXT forum.  Again, how can you say that the "terms haven't changed even once" and that people haven't lost anything, when you are now stating that what people purchased should "not be considered an investment or a cryptocurrency" when you sold it to them as "profit-shares"?

[Come-from-Beyond]

It's a logical conclusion.  If Jinn assets are "*NOT* an investment" and after a certain date they aren't redeemable IOTA which the CEO claims is "NOT a cryptocurrency", what are they?

Your logical conclusion is wrong.

The misunderstanding regarding status of JINN arises because the lawyer recommended not to extend on JINN definition beyond one set during that dutch auction. It's part of our legal defense - to avoid answering the question just because some person who purchased JINN from the original purchasers may attempt to catch us at our word to get more rights than was planned.

So, the conditions haven't changed, if you need more info the only viable way to get it is to contact us privately (be ready to provide proof of JINN ownership).

PS: I hope you'll get the issue and will stop spreading the misinformation.

[Blocktree]

This is an unmoderated thread to discuss Jinn/IOTA and to figure out the truth of what is really happening.

Originally, Jinn assets were sold on the NXT exchange under the premise that they would turn into legal "profit-shares" that would be distributed to the asset holders.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/%28ann%29-jinn/msg156081/#msg156081

Instead we'll ask everyone who holds Jinn tokens to give us their contact information (we'll need this in preparation for the legal transfer of profit-shares in the near future anyway) where we'll answer more intricate questions, without opening ourselves up for scruitiny from every angle imaginable in public.

Then it was decided that these Jinn assets wouldn't entitle their holders to a share of the profits, but instead they would be redeemable for a cryptocurrency called IOTAs.

IOTA - JINN SWAP

We are happy to finally be able to share the details surrounding the JINN to IOTA conversion. The JINN tokens will be locked at the fixed value of 0.0063 BTC, the reasoning behind this is that we offer this conversion primarily for those that did not understand what they bought when they bought JINN. This was the value on the time of the sale and thus ensures that absolutely no one lost anything on their purchase of JINN tokens.

Then, it was declared that IOTA wasn't really a cryptocurrency.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/iota-jinn/msg201723/#msg201723

IOTA should not be considered a cryptocurrency, even if it may have been described as that by us or others previously.

Then, it was declared that IOTA shouldn't be considered an investment.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/iota-jinn/msg201628/#msg201628

IOTA should also not be considered an investment.  There is absolutely no guarantee that the IOTA that you purchase will increase in value. Instead you need to consider that over time it may decrease in value.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/iota-jinn/msg201890/#msg201890

Yes. It's *NOT* an investment.

Why does David/Uniqueorn/Triangle/iotatoken keep changing the terms of the arrangement with investors?  How can he say that people haven't lost anything when what is being given to them, "a non-cryptocurrency, non-investment", is different from what was originally promised, "profit-shares"?

JINN failed.
IOAT is just a copycat of DagCoin.

[iotatoken]

JINN is alive and well.
IOTA is 100% original, which can be proved easily. Oh and also creator of DagCoin is enthusiastic about IOTA and will security check it So keep on fudding and trolling kids.

[superresistant]

 
Nothing special. Same as Ether :

Ether is a product, NOT a security or investment offering. Ether is simply a token useful for paying transaction fees or building or purchasing decentralized application services on the Ethereum platform; it does not give you voting rights over anything, and we make no guarantees of its future value.

https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/07/22/launching-the-ether-sale/

Ownership of ETH carries no rights express or implied. Purchases of ETH are non-refundable. Purchasers should have no expectation of influence over governance of the platform.

http://3amdeveloper.com/terms-and-conditions-of-the-ethereum-genesis-sale/

[DecentralizeEconomics]

It's a logical conclusion.  If Jinn assets are "*NOT* an investment" and after a certain date they aren't redeemable IOTA which the CEO claims is "NOT a cryptocurrency", what are they?

Your logical conclusion is wrong.

The misunderstanding regarding status of JINN arises because the lawyer recommended not to extend on JINN definition beyond one set during that dutch auction. It's part of our legal defense - to avoid answering the question just because some person who purchased JINN from the original purchasers may attempt to catch us at our word to get more rights than was planned.

So, the conditions haven't changed, if you need more info the only viable way to get it is to contact us privately (be ready to provide proof of JINN ownership).

PS: I hope you'll get the issue and will stop spreading the misinformation.

So, will investors who hold Jinn assets after the IOTA redemption period is over be legally transferred profit-shares?

[btcxyzzz]

You don't get it guys. You don't wait for mass-adoption after the network launch. You surf the hype and you sell at least 5-6x the ICO price, that's what happens with every good ICO coin, and IOTA token seem to be a really good one.

[benthach]

This is an unmoderated thread to discuss Jinn/IOTA and to figure out the truth of what is really happening.

Originally, Jinn assets were sold on the NXT exchange under the premise that they would turn into legal "profit-shares" that would be distributed to the asset holders.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/%28ann%29-jinn/msg156081/#msg156081

Instead we'll ask everyone who holds Jinn tokens to give us their contact information (we'll need this in preparation for the legal transfer of profit-shares in the near future anyway) where we'll answer more intricate questions, without opening ourselves up for scruitiny from every angle imaginable in public.

Then it was decided that these Jinn assets wouldn't entitle their holders to a share of the profits, but instead they would be redeemable for a cryptocurrency called IOTAs.

IOTA - JINN SWAP

We are happy to finally be able to share the details surrounding the JINN to IOTA conversion. The JINN tokens will be locked at the fixed value of 0.0063 BTC, the reasoning behind this is that we offer this conversion primarily for those that did not understand what they bought when they bought JINN. This was the value on the time of the sale and thus ensures that absolutely no one lost anything on their purchase of JINN tokens.

Then, it was declared that IOTA wasn't really a cryptocurrency.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/iota-jinn/msg201723/#msg201723

IOTA should not be considered a cryptocurrency, even if it may have been described as that by us or others previously.

Then, it was declared that IOTA shouldn't be considered an investment.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/iota-jinn/msg201628/#msg201628

IOTA should also not be considered an investment.  There is absolutely no guarantee that the IOTA that you purchase will increase in value. Instead you need to consider that over time it may decrease in value.

https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/iota-jinn/msg201890/#msg201890

Yes. It's *NOT* an investment.

Why does David/Uniqueorn/Triangle/iotatoken keep changing the terms of the arrangement with investors?  How can he say that people haven't lost anything when what is being given to them, "a non-cryptocurrency, non-investment", is different from what was originally promised, "profit-shares"?

just another get rich scam idea

[Come-from-Beyond]

So, will investors who hold Jinn assets after the IOTA redemption period is over be legally transferred profit-shares?

1. They are not investors.
2. They will get what was promised 14 months ago.

[smooth]

So, will investors who hold Jinn assets after the IOTA redemption period is over be legally transferred profit-shares?

1. They are not investors.

Hard to believe when they were promised "profit-shares".

Investor: to put (money) to use, by purchase or expenditure, in something offering potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value

You saying it now (either here or in your disclosure documents) does not make it so.

[Come-from-Beyond]

So, will investors who hold Jinn assets after the IOTA redemption period is over be legally transferred profit-shares?

1. They are not investors.

Hard to believe when they were promised "profit-shares".

Investor: to put (money) to use, by purchase or expenditure, in something offering potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value

You saying it now (either here or in your disclosure documents) does not make it so.

Who was promised of "profit-shares"?

[smooth]

So, will investors who hold Jinn assets after the IOTA redemption period is over be legally transferred profit-shares?

1. They are not investors.

Hard to believe when they were promised "profit-shares".

Investor: to put (money) to use, by purchase or expenditure, in something offering potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value

You saying it now (either here or in your disclosure documents) does not make it so.

Who was promised of "profit-shares"?

Jinn buyers, according to the claims made in this post. I don't know whether they are correct or not, nor do I know whether your posts are correct. I only know what I read.

According to that dictionary definition, people purchasing or expending money on IOTA tokens are also investors, unless you are going to prohibit IOTA tokens from ever being traded (not sure how that would work) and only allow them to be used as network access. They offer "potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value".

Lawyers will have to work out the legalities, but when it comes to the English language and matters of substance, they are clearly investors.

 

[Come-from-Beyond]

Jinn buyers, according to the claims made in this post. I don't know whether they are correct or not, nor do I know whether your posts are correct. I only know what I read.

According to that dictionary definition people purchasing or expending money on IOTA tokens are also investors, unless you are going to prohibit IOTA tokens from ever being traded (not sure how that would work) and only allow them to be used as network access. They offer "potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value".

There was a lot of misinformation spread by those who wanted to sell JINN for as higher price as possible. Maybe they were just scammers, there are a lot of them in cryptospace. Also note that sometimes I use word "investors" because it's much simpler than to explain all the details. It's just a shortcut and any attempts to catch me at my word are silly. Without the context "investor" can mean anything, so I'm not sure it's a good moment to quote Merriam-Webster dictionary.

[smooth]

Jinn buyers, according to the claims made in this post. I don't know whether they are correct or not, nor do I know whether your posts are correct. I only know what I read.

According to that dictionary definition people purchasing or expending money on IOTA tokens are also investors, unless you are going to prohibit IOTA tokens from ever being traded (not sure how that would work) and only allow them to be used as network access. They offer "potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value".

There was a lot of misinformation spread by those who wanted to sell JINN for as higher price as possible. Maybe they were just scammers, there are a lot of them in cryptospace. Also note that sometimes I use word "investors" because it's much simpler than to explain all the details. It's just a shortcut and any attempts to catch me at my word are silly. Without the context "investor" can mean anything, so I'm not sure it's a good moment to quote Merriam-Webster dictionary.

I'm not catching you on any word, I'm looking at the dictionary definition and silly claims that people who quite obviously "put (money) to use, by purchase or expenditure, in something offering potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value" are not investors. That's nonsensical.

[iotatoken]

According to that dictionary definition, people purchasing or expending money on IOTA tokens are also investors, unless you are going to prohibit IOTA tokens from ever being traded (not sure how that would work) and only allow them to be used as network access. They offer "potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value".

 

No. That's not how the law works. ANYTHING can appreciate or depreciate in value post-purchase. IOTA is software. We got 2 documents: Terms of Sale and Risk that EXPLICITLY state that IOTA IS NOT either securities or investment, it's SOFTWARE. NOTHING MORE AND NOTHING LESS.
This is the same for all software and crypto-software, including Ethereum, Augur etc. This is the law, done deal.

I can't believe you have bitten this hard on the bait of a troll. Haha, smarten up man.

[Come-from-Beyond]

I'm not catching you on any word, I'm looking at the dictionary definition and silly claims that people who quite obviously "put (money) to use, by purchase or expenditure, in something offering potential profitable returns, as interest, income, or appreciation in value" are not investors. That's nonsensical.

I live in a country with high inflation. People buy a lot of USD to save their money. Are they investors?