national minimum wage LAWS. good or bad?

[SgtSpike]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

No, it removes the ability to bargain. There's a difference.

In your world, perhaps. But we don't live in your world for a good may reasons. In the real world, there aren't actually job seekers out there wanting to work for less than minimum wage. Thus, they are saved from being offered really shitty deals. Get it?

I would argue that there are, because the minimum wage is too high.

Did you read the paper?

No.

[Rassah]

Did you read the paper I posted? The one about not finding any correlation between wage floors and unemployment rates?

Can you explain why there is no correlation, when the basic law of supply and demand says there should be?

[Anon136]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

Put another way, it kind of removes the ability for the job seeker to be an idiot and accept a job for which he cannot sustain himself.  But, it would be much better for the free market to determine what this sustainability wage floor should be, instead of the government.  The problem is, the idiots may reduce that wage floor for everyone else, making it more difficult for those who are not idiots to find a job in which he can sustain himself.

you may be missing the point that it is in the interest of some workers to work for a wage that is not high enough to sustain themselves. Imagine a teenager who has all of his needs met by his parents and gains valuable work experience from the low wage job.

[Rudd-O]

Have you ever walked into a Walmart and think "My gosh, too bad the minimum wage laws are preventing Walmart from hiring more employees", as you navigate your way through the door greeter, the the girl pushing Walmart credit cards, etc?

...and then stand at one of the four (out of 40) checkout lines that are open, waiting in line for longer than it took you to pick out your items...

Oh god, this.

[Rudd-O]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

No, it removes the ability to bargain. There's a difference.

Exactly.  Taking away the option to charge less for his services doesn't give the seeker doesn't get bargaining power -- on the contrary, such a policy takes his power away.

But you can't expect sociopathic FirstAsshat to understand this simple fact.

[FirstAscent]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

Put another way, it kind of removes the ability for the job seeker to be an idiot and accept a job for which he cannot sustain himself.  But, it would be much better for the free market to determine what this sustainability wage floor should be, instead of the government.  The problem is, the idiots may reduce that wage floor for everyone else, making it more difficult for those who are not idiots to find a job in which he can sustain himself.

you may be missing the point that it is in the interest of some workers to work for a wage that is not high enough to sustain themselves. Imagine a teenager who has all of his needs met by his parents and gains valuable work experience from the low wage job.

Those teenagers work at minimum wage jobs. And if they don't, you have pointed out that all his needs are met.

[FirstAscent]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

No, it removes the ability to bargain. There's a difference.

Exactly.  Taking away the option to charge less for his services doesn't give the seeker doesn't get bargaining power -- on the contrary, such a policy takes his power away.

But you can't expect sociopathic FirstAsshat to understand this simple fact.

He's not gaining power by being allowed to bargain for slave labor.

[myrkul]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

No, it removes the ability to bargain. There's a difference.

Exactly.  Taking away the option to charge less for his services doesn't give the seeker doesn't get bargaining power -- on the contrary, such a policy takes his power away.

But you can't expect sociopathic FirstAsshat to understand this simple fact.

He's not gaining power by being allowed to bargain for slave labor.

I don't think you quite understand at least one of those terms you used.

[FirstAscent]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

No, it removes the ability to bargain. There's a difference.

Exactly.  Taking away the option to charge less for his services doesn't give the seeker doesn't get bargaining power -- on the contrary, such a policy takes his power away.

But you can't expect sociopathic FirstAsshat to understand this simple fact.

He's not gaining power by being allowed to bargain for slave labor.

I don't think you quite understand at least one of those terms you used.

I don't think my answer was in reply to a remotely grammatically correct sentence, but I don't bother with petty statements like yours.

[myrkul]

He's not gaining power by being allowed to bargain for slave labor.

I don't think you quite understand at least one of those terms you used.

I don't think my answer was in reply to a remotely grammatically correct sentence, but I don't bother with petty statements like yours.

Let's try again, then. Care to explain how a slave can bargain for the price of his labor?

[FirstAscent]

He's not gaining power by being allowed to bargain for slave labor.

I don't think you quite understand at least one of those terms you used.

I don't think my answer was in reply to a remotely grammatically correct sentence, but I don't bother with petty statements like yours.

Let's try again, then. Care to explain how a slave can bargain for the price of his labor?

Oh man. I really didn't understand what you meant at first. Now I simply see your inability to find a meaningful response to what I said, so instead you try and twist literal meanings out of words and make false assumptions about the class and position of a person doing bargaining.

If you have a point, find it and say it.

[myrkul]

If you have a point, find it and say it.

How, exactly, is voluntarily accepting a wage below some arbitrary mandatory minimum "slave labor"?

[TECSHARE]

So we agree that minimum wage laws supporting a living wage are good and that business profitability is a complex issue that cannot be narrowed down to one issue like consumer demand. I would love to debate you live just to hear you shouting and ignoring my argument like you are now.

You don't have an argument. When you do, I'll respond to it.

Your contention is that a free market can exist simply because it can be shown "in theory."

Nope, not my argument at all. See, you can't even read, let alone compose an argument.

I second this.  cbeast has no argument and his behavior here demonstrates that he doesn't know how to compose an argument.

I'm adding him to my ignore list since his comments contribute little value to anyone, so I'd prefer not to be annoyed by them.

Did I really just see this on Bitcointalk? Are the tides turning? Good job breaking it down. I hope too see more of this around here.

[Anon136]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

Put another way, it kind of removes the ability for the job seeker to be an idiot and accept a job for which he cannot sustain himself.  But, it would be much better for the free market to determine what this sustainability wage floor should be, instead of the government.  The problem is, the idiots may reduce that wage floor for everyone else, making it more difficult for those who are not idiots to find a job in which he can sustain himself.

you may be missing the point that it is in the interest of some workers to work for a wage that is not high enough to sustain themselves. Imagine a teenager who has all of his needs met by his parents and gains valuable work experience from the low wage job.

Those teenagers work at minimum wage jobs. And if they don't, you have pointed out that all his needs are met.

this fails to address my argument

[Anon136]

I would ask you whether or not someone who is unable to produce enough value to sustain even their own lives is entitled to the products of those who are able to sustain their own lives? Do you believe a market wage till tend to be unfairly decoupled from a workers marginal revenue product in a free market society?

If a worker accepts employment in which he does not receive a high enough wage to sustain himself, then he's an idiot.  A worker should only accept employment in which he receives a high enough wage to sustain himself.  If all workers do this, it creates a natural minimum wage floor.

The minimum wage floor gives the job seeker some bargaining power, in a sense.

No, it removes the ability to bargain. There's a difference.

Exactly.  Taking away the option to charge less for his services doesn't give the seeker doesn't get bargaining power -- on the contrary, such a policy takes his power away.

But you can't expect sociopathic FirstAsshat to understand this simple fact.

He's not gaining power by being allowed to bargain for slave labor.

If two people are bargaining with each other than this indicates that the relation ship between them is not one of master and slave. You see slave masters have no need to ever bargain with their slaves, in fact this is pretty much the defining characteristic of the master and slave relationship.

[Rassah]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor? Stuff like fast food, farming produce,really cheap shoes and clothing, various cheap plastic and paper products, nursing assistance, basic income tax services, and other things like that, typically used by the poor. This way everyone will be forced to pay enough for those burgers and other junk to actually generate enough revenue for companies to raise their employees' wages! Of course, doing this will also make the stuff poor people actually rely on much more expensive for them to obtain  

Nah, never mind. Let's just stick to increasing wages, and forcing companies to raise prices on all that stuff poor people use. At least that way, those poor people will feel better about their wages, and might not notice that the price of everything they buy went up.

[myrkul]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor?

I've got an even better idea. Since we can legislate prosperity just by increasing wages, Let's just set the minimum wage at $1 million/hour, so none of us will have to work more than a few hours every year.

[Anon136]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor?

I've got an even better idea. Since we can legislate prosperity just by increasing wages, Let's just set the minimum wage at $1 million/hour, so none of us will have to work more than a few hours every year.

wage implies that someone has to work. Lets just mail 1 infinity dollar bill to every household.

[myrkul]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor?

I've got an even better idea. Since we can legislate prosperity just by increasing wages, Let's just set the minimum wage at $1 million/hour, so none of us will have to work more than a few hours every year.

wage implies that someone has to work. Lets just mail 1 infinity dollar bill to every household.

I think you just qualified yourself for the job of FED chairman.

[Rudd-O]

Hey, I have an idea. Instead of putting a price floor on earnings with minimum wage laws, why don't we just put a price floor on all products created with minimum wage labor?

I've got an even better idea. Since we can legislate prosperity just by increasing wages, Let's just set the minimum wage at $1 million/hour, so none of us will have to work more than a few hours every year.

wage implies that someone has to work. Lets just mail 1 infinity dollar bill to every household.

I think you just qualified yourself for the job of FED chairman.

Nope.  He also needs a "Nobel" prize :-)